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Um, as to the OP question, if you're not taking any other HS, take the oblits, as three seperate units(flexibility).
If you have only one slot to work with, the havocs can pack more firepower into a single slot if that's your only concern.

Either way they need to keep to cover(though oblits can be held in reserve and deep strike), but the oblits at range tend to soak lascannon and ML shots(people always seem to want to ID multi-wound models for some reason!) that would otherwise be shooting at your rhinos and their squishy centers, or daemon prince(if you swing that way).

i think that pretty much sums up the entire thread, nicly done

Well, finally had my game and I took one squad of Havocs and one of Oblits. Have to say, the Oblits were really nice. I was shooting Las Cannons shots at MCs far away, when they got close I switched to Plasma, and then at one point my opponent deep striked a squad of 12 Gargoyles near my Oblit. The Gargoyles fired on one of my Terminator squads on the turn they deepstriked, and then my oblits were able to move close enough to wipe out the entire squad of 12 Gargoyles with twin-linked flamers in one shot.

Nice and toasty .

I'm glad the oblits did well, but what of the Havocs? What did they get to do?

And what was their loadout?

Yes thats a good q.....

The Havocs had 4 MLs. They didn't do a ton to be honest, but that was partially to horrible rolling on my part. 4 Krak Missiles a turn was nice on the MCs (he had two Trygons and a Hive Tyrant), but then when it was time to kill little stuff, I ended up not even using the frag missiles due to his spacing (figured it was better to have one semi-sure kill, then 2-3 maybes). The flexibility of the Oblits definitely came in handy more though. 3 Lascannon shots long range (probably could have used Plasma Cannons at some point, but I needed to focus on the MCs) were not as good as 4 Krak Missiles from the Havocs; however, 6 twin-linked plasma shots, and 3 twinlinked flamer shots were devastating as things got closer. Given the price differential though (225 points for 3 oblits compared to 155 for 5 Havocs and 4 MLs) I really can't argue that taking one is better than the other. I think it will come down to what you're going up against. I'd also like to say that SW are seriously jacked up. I was looking at their codex last night, and their heavy weapon squad can get 6 guys, 5 with MLs and one with a plasma gun for the SAME PRICE as a Havoc squad of 5 with 4 MLs and a bolter. WTF is up with that? For the same price, they get an extra model, an extra ML, and a plasma gun instead of a bolter.

Thats kinda stupid....


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But yeah i see what you mean bout the havoks, they culd have done better but they could hav done worse

Depending on your local players, you might want to sub the 4xML for 2xML 2xAC, or 4xAC configuration. The AC's are good against the little stuff, dont worry about spread out troops, and still throws wounds down on MC's, and has the same range. Against other armies it's good against light vehicles/transports and wound infantry (sure it doesn't ignore a marines armour, but it does wound him on a 2+!). Alot of people swear by 4xAC, but I like the 2xML 2xAC settup.

im one of the people who could live of ac's. i swear by them

If you're planning on running Havocs in a Rhino, consider the configuration of two Autocannons and two Plasma Guns. That way you can always have two firing out of the top two fire points whether moving or stationary.

^That's a pretty nifty combo.

Nurglitch wrote:If you're planning on running Havocs in a Rhino, consider the configuration of two Autocannons and two Plasma Guns. That way you can always have two firing out of the top two fire points whether moving or stationary.

oic what you did thar

I personally feel that people overestimate the power of S8 insta-kills. Unless the squad in question is using wound allocation tricks, 2 shots that wound on 2's is going to do the same amount of damage as 1 shot that also wounds on 2's and insta-kills assuming the model has 2 wounds.

Sure if it has 3 wounds its better to go for the insta-kill but there are also 2W models that have Eternal Warrior.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying insta-kills are useless, just that its a situational bonus.

As for Havocs, I've long been a fan of the 1 bodybag per 1 gun Marine logic, however I find myself changing that recently. One of the main ways to cheapen an infantry based heavy weapon squad is to lose bodies, so I'm thinking that 6-7 guys is probably enough to protect 4 weapons. Someone earlier also mentioned the trick of putting the IoCG on an Autocannon Marine so you still only have 4 "important" Marines to protect.

Better to increase the diversity of a unit if you want to protect its important members, and although you're increasing the diversity of the important members by adding an Icon to a Heavy Weapon Specialist, you're reducing the overall diversity of the unit. Better to suck up the cost to add an Aspiring Champion and an Icon Bearer.

On the point of a 5 man havok squad, if they need to take a moral check the they are pretty much toasted, i reccommend dumping the icons altogether, its just points that your wasting, and could put to other uses, a rhino as protection eg

If they have to take a morale check and they have an Icon of Chaos Glory, then they have at least Ld9 with a re-roll. Not to mention that the Icon can be used for homing Obliterators, Terminators, and Lesser Daemons in on them. In such a fashion Havocs can be considered to be able to hold objectives, taking them, and then guarding the unit of Lesser Daemons that is brought down to score.

As a rule you dont want to hone lesser deamons termies etc on them because theyre to far away from everything to help, im a staunch believer of keeping my blits on the ground, you wont see me deepstiking them ever, on the point of leadership, the most common times they will be required to make is either when: a they have lost 25% dudes, in this case theyre gonna get mauled the next turn or in combat anyway so it doesnt make a dif, or b when they are being pinned, albeit the latter is quite a viable need to stay up and shooting, but again if something is in range to pin them that means they have lost a wound for a start, eg you probably lost one of the heavy weapons or not depending on the battle..., and theyll get smoked next turn anyway.

They need an iocg, last thing you need is to fail a moral or pinning test when there are still 3 or 4 ml to shoot.

The point is that if anyone is in range to force a pinning / moral then the rest of the shooting phase is going to maul them, and if it gets to that point the assault phase, you arnt going to be able to fire your other heavy weapons because they wont see anouther shooting phase.

^Agreed.
One small note. IoCG only helps for Morale and not pinning.

Keep the Havocs far far away and maximize the range. Anything sent to deal with them is away from something more important.
Their inability to score is sad, but you can feel content into placing them in terrible places to score which makes it less of an appealing thing for the opponent to go after them.

Sanctjud, isn't pinning a form of morale test? Items that help your morale will help against pinning, the same way ramming is just a form of tank shocking.

Last night I used an 8 man havok squad with 4 heavy bolters and a rhino with extra armor and a havok.

They did really well. They (along with 2 havok launchers) decimated an ork slugga boys mob that included a warboss, so that my CSM squad was able to assault and kill the warboss and nob that were left. They also killed 3 deffcoptas in one shooting phase, and later killed 2 of 3 in a second deffcopta squad, which then failed morale and ran away. They then fired twice at ghazghul and a nobz mob that were in cover, but the rolls were so bad I only did 1 wound in 2 shooting phases and that one was stopped by the cover save.

Overall, in this situation (large groups of lightly armored targets) they did better than my obliterators have done in the past. I would consider using them against orks, or possibly using a squad with 4 missile launchers if I decide to buy some. (this squad was made from all the extra heavy bolters I had from the CSM sprues.)

No, pinning and morale tests are both leadership tests, but pinning is not a form of morale test.

Incidentally I'm looking at the rules for the Pulse Carbine and they seem entirely consistent with the new pinning rules. Codex: Tau Empire says that any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fire must take a pinning test. This is true, because at least one unsaved wound from Pulse Carbine fire means one Pulse Carbine inflicted an unsaved wound.

If your opponent wants to play hardball, and they refuse to play it so that they have to take a pinning test for every unsaved wound caused by a Pulse Carbine, point out that the Pulse Carbine rules don't specific 'unsaved wounds'. The Pulse Carbine rules specify 'wounds', meaning that the pinning test for Pulse Carbines is taken at the wounding step rather than after saves.

Curses......

Would you rather wreak havoc onto your opponent or Obliterate him? lol

TRICK QUESTION!
The answer is both!

And then after that, you start playing Warmachine

From my experience, which is better relies on who you are fighting. against Necrons, Orks, and Eldar. I have had games where obliterators gun down necrons, who are promptly ressurected, and then the obliterators gun them down again. But Havocs are good as a utility unit that can finish off most already damaged units. (or to start cracking that unit open) Happy Wargaming.

Just to mess with the situation, what about replacing Oblits or Havocks with larger then termicide Terminator squads?

Obliterators can do what Termicides do and better, as well they can provide fire support from the backfield. Havocs can provide better fire support from the backfield, but you can actually afford Terminators and Havocs.