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I've been sitting here going back and forth on whether to use Obliterators or Havocs. 3 Obliterators cost 225, while 5 havocs with missile launchers cost 155. That's a 70 point difference (3+ Khorne Berzekers!). It seems like the Obliterators would be good for armies that have a lot of vehicles, while the Havocs are good for everything else. I realize Obliterators can move a little bit and fire too, but really you aren't going to be moving them a whole lot since they are your heavy weps. Is there any reason to take Obliterators instead of Havocs when you're going against an army with very few vehicles (or none, like Tyranids).

Survivability? Hidden powerfist?

Oh yah true dat. I never really looked at their wounds and saves lol. I was just looking at their weapons and point cost. Ignore this post

One should strive to not put them in a position to be killed by hidden powerfists.
Else, they bring good versitility to the heavy support section, you pay for it, but it's a decent buy if that flexibility is what you are looking for.

Havocs are more specialized....(IMO aka Quad Autocannon Transport busting).

Or qual ml as they ignore av3, instakill t4, and shred mc.

Havocs work best when oblits or a defiler protects them from being assaulted. Point for point they outgun oblits, but they need another chaos heavy support to protect them.

The thing about oblits is that unlike havocs, they're everything: long-range AT, short-range relentless melta, MC-hunters, even (in this edition) plasma cannons for heavy infantry hunting. I strongly recommend oblits, because they never don't have the perfect weapon for a situation. Also, 2+/5++ save and 2 wounds makes them point-for-point only slightly less tough than havocs (I'm assuming you pay for the extra five havocs to use as ablative wounds).

I agree with the above poster.
I always found oblits good as a jack of all trades HW unit. Especially good in tournaments or round robin games or whatever where you werent sure what you were going to face.

Just decide how many Oblits you want to field in each heavy slot. I find 2 enough for the Twin-linking most of their weapons have.

I've really moved away from Oblits; they were a crutch. I used them to help cover both ends of the spectrum: dealing with hordes and mass heavy armor. As I got better and my army list became balanced, Oblits seemed to do less and less until eventually I was only Deepstriking them to use their Multi-Meltas. At that point I might as well be using Termicide or Raptors.

To answer to OP's question: no, not really. If you don't need them for multiple jobs they'll never be cost efficient. If you have a balanced army list anyway, you won't need them for multiple jobs. I'd go with the quad Missile Launcher Havocs.

My oblits always seem to die without doing much as everyone knows to target them. Whenever I have used Havocs I've always been really happy with the amount of bottom kicking they can unleash and how long they last (much easier to hide in a building somewhere than oblits). I almost always run quad AC's and will often use quad HB's as well (if facing hordes).

Though I do agree that quad ML's is a good all round unit.

I personally wouldn't go for quad ML, but it's not for tactical reasons... anti-spikey SMurf Devs syndrome.
Edit: and on a similar note, Oblits are UNIQUE to the chaos heavy support section, IMO a one up on the 'pro' side of things to use them.

As for SilverMK2's comments.
Everyone knows to target them, yes. But that's a good thing. With T4 suseptable to being ID'ed they can suck up str 8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

If they are dying, they are sucking up firepower and allowing other things to live.
Do you notice a difference when you go with Havocs instead? Like other stuff dying faster (ie transports)?
It just seems wierd to see one going for a different choice and everything becoming rainbows and lolipops.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the point cost of a ML and AC will drop to about 10 points each on 5th edition havocs. Our codex is comming soon, right after DE, Nercons, Tau, Eldar, Orcs, and a few loyalist chapters.

Even after a price drop I'll be willing to bet half the chaos players out there would still depend on oblits as a cruch no matter how pont inefficient it is to use a swiss army knife for vehicle cracking.

For me it's a weight of fire vs flexibility choice. Havocs provide the weight of fire, and oblits provide flexible fire that can target multiple types of targets. Oblits are expensive though, and can flail miserably quite easily.

Termicide > Oblits

Havoks haven their advantages and their drawbacks, but as stated before, you can either protect them with a CC dred (try to aviod if you can, but it is a rather cheap option) or a defilier (defiliers are NEVER a bad option for this)

Anything your Oblits can do with their >9000 weapons you can do with other selections that you need to take anyway, don't waste the points/HS slot on sniper oblits, and deepstriking Termis are both more cost effective and (from what I have noticed) more successful then any Oblits will ever be.

Oblits are fine for Apoc, but outside of that, they really aren't THAT great (compared to the other selections).

So... if I wanted a plasma cannon where would I go?
I'm sure the Dread is unreliable, so that leaves..............?

Daemon-Archon Ren, you are discounting the flexibility they bring. Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

Oblits are not supposed to DS, so Termicides are good in their role because that is pretty much their only role.
Termicides are cost effective, but variable in performance. Oblits contributing at ALL times in the game offer much more stability to the list.

Ooh, Sanctjud's playing the bad guy. This'll be fun.

Sancjud wrote:...to being ID'ed they can suck up S8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

Either the Oblits are Deepstriking, in which case they aren't providing armor saturation, or they're sitting in the back field, in which case the Havocs are more durable. The Havocs can lose more wounds before they start losing weapons, and most weapons wound the Obliterators and Havocs at the same rate.

Sanctjud wrote:Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

By not taking a swiss army knife, you are tailoring your list? Armies that don't have swiss army knives, like the Eldar and Tau, can only ever tailor their lists? No, taking a variety of specialists is almost always more cost effective than taking an army of generalists.

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS

Then how do you use anything but the Lascannon and Plasmacannon? Lascannons can be bought else where for cheaper, and although we can't get Plasmacannons otherwise, 2 for 150 points is a poor deal.

Ah, but oblits can also fire on the move to get better angles. And while termicide is much less useful if you can't DS for some reason, Oblits retain options- and can take the DS if it is advantageous.

Oblits offer flexibility but are pricey. Havoks and terminators are more specialized. Pick based on the role you need. No more really needs be said.

Dirty loyalist talking now:

Lists with obliterators I tend to decimate. Why? Oblits have a tendency to pop when hit by a lascannon. This reduces their anti-vehicle abilities to near-nothing, letting my vindicators and Land Raider have free reign. Hell, I have had major success in killing them with CCW and PF scouts because of one S8 attack geting through.

8 havocs in cover make my rhinoes cry, and usually for cheaper too.

From what I have fought, the Havocs do more and cost less. I would take them.

Sanctjud wrote:As for SilverMK2's comments.
Everyone knows to target them, yes. But that's a good thing. With T4 suseptable to being ID'ed they can suck up str 8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

If they are dying, they are sucking up firepower and allowing other things to live.
Do you notice a difference when you go with Havocs instead? Like other stuff dying faster (ie transports)?
It just seems wierd to see one going for a different choice and everything becoming rainbows and lolipops.

I may have to repaint my havocs in rainbow warrior colours

However, to address your comments (with the proviso that I don't actually play all that much, so it may simply be a statistical bump):

1) While oblits have armour on their side, I find that sticking Havocs in cover has pretty much the same effect most of the time. A squad of 5 oblits in cover can be quite difficult to kill.
2) I have not noticed any particular increase in destroyed transports etc when I take havocs, and find a drastic increase in how much I kill with havocs Vs Oblits, so overall a win for the havocs on this point for me.
3) I think the versatility of oblits is offset by the fact that I don't get as many dice to throw each turn, which means that due to my rubbish dice rolling skills I almost always miss with them

I just about always DS my oblits off of icon-toting Rhinos. They plus Termicide tend to make up the majority of my firebase when playing Chaos, and the ability of Oblits to provide close range armor busting or long(er) range suppression fire, and to assault as necessary, outperforms the stationary, predominantly AV11-12 busting firebase of equivalent points in Havoks.

If all you're doing is shooting at rhinos or marines in cover, then min Havok squads with ACs are going to outperform Oblits doing the same. For the sheer amount of optionality on a more durable chassis, however, I'm willing to pay the small premium for the Oblit over the Havoc. Whether it's a Land Raider, a Medusa in back corner behind a building, or a blob of Orks, Oblits can perform in a good capacity. Can't say the same about a Havoc squad.

@Brother-Thunder:

Oblits shot at lascannons should be oblits shot at who are in cover, in which case they get a free 4+ cover save.
In addition, that is a one lascannon not shot at a Dread/Rhino/LR.

Anti-tank abilities to near-nothing
I’m sorry, but that can’t be a serious statement. What list are you talking about because I know experienced players do not rely solely on obliterators for all their anti-tank needs.

Havocs do different things and cost less because they don’t have the same kind of flexibility the oblits have.

As for being a dirty loyalist, it depends… Edward Marines or Jacob Marines .

@Darkhound:

‘Bad guy’? Now who stood who up? J/K.

As for durability issues.
Havocs are more durable but exposed turn 1.
Oblits do not need to be. They can move and shoot… which means they can hide behind BLoS stuff and then move to commit.

Then there’s the parking lot issue that can block Havoc and Oblit lanes of fire, but at least oblits can move to get better lanes.

As for “tailoring” that was a poorly thought out sentence. What I had meant was tailoring units for a role. If one does that, obviously they would side with more role oriented unit as havocs. What I’m assuming is that the body of troops are set up to take on armored targets.

As for the last point.
LC are weapons of last resort. It’s the PC that gets used often. I do not need to commit turn 1. I do not need to realistically BE-THERE until later in the game. So pot shots with what ever is welcomed and when the time comes they will have whatever weapon that is needed where it is needed midboard.
It’s not 2 PC’s for that cost, it’s the whole package… if they are not useful then the LC will be.

With oblits you are not completely neutered with night fight or dawn of war. You keep mobile (IMO static is death). Back to DS, they shouldn’t but should you ‘need’ to it’s an option.

Havocs and oblits are both good, why not take both? Havocs (with AC’s) are (as said) great at Rhino busting and just a good generalist weapon.

@SilverMK2:

1) I’m talking about the opponent tempted to use Str 8+ weaponry on them as a means to suedo-armor saturation. I don’t think many will go to lascannon equivalents to take out 5 Marines in cover (unless it’s a template weapon….and ignores cover lets just say).
2) It just doesn’t seem to add up. There is a balance to things. Oblits should be attracting str 8+ weaponry. If they are dying so easily, then that firepower should be withering to whatever else they are trained at if the Oblits are no longer there. It just looks like that aspect just disappears when havocs are taken instead from your description, /shrug.
3) Heh, works both ways, but I understand, bucket-o-dice is always a favorite.

As I say, I don't play a great deal, so perhaps over time I will see results as you suggest.

I'm not sure why it has to be a this or that issue.

I find that they both work well together. 4x AC Havocs provide the sheer volume of shots to take out the light armor spam that seems so common these days and the Oblits provide the low AP shots or the high S shots (or both) against the targets that the AC struggles against (AV13/14 and 2+ saves).

Sanctjud wrote:@Brother-Thunder:

Oblits shot at lascannons should be oblits shot at who are in cover, in which case they get a free 4+ cover save.
In addition, that is a one lascannon not shot at a Dread/Rhino/LR.

Anti-tank abilities to near-nothing
I’m sorry, but that can’t be a serious statement. What list are you talking about because I know experienced players do not rely solely on obliterators for all their anti-tank needs.

Havocs do different things and cost less because they don’t have the same kind of flexibility the oblits have.

As for being a dirty loyalist, it depends… Edward Marines or Jacob Marines .

4 up or no, it does not stop them from rolling a 3 or below

Generally, the chaos players in my area also run land raiders, vindicators, etc. for ranged AV. I just happen to blow them up first turn most of the time.

Havocs also cost less, and can do amost as much. Hence why I would take them if I were running chaos.

I am neither team Jacob or Team Edward. I am a codex-adhering Imperial Fist, yes.

I was indicating that the 4+ cover is better than the 5++ flat.
Where as Havocs don't even factor into the issue because they are not gonna get shot at by lascannon equivalents honestly.

Ah, so you are team Isabella.

Sanctjud wrote:I was indicating that the 4+ cover is better than the 5++ flat.
Where as Havocs don't even factor into the issue because they are not gonna get shot at by lascannon equivalents honestly.

Ah, so you are team Isabella.

No, the havocs are not. Hence why they make good heavy weapon platforms, they are not shot at as much.

and yes, the 4 up cover can block some shots, but they cannot block ALL of them!! My philosophy on killing Oblits. That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

My experience with oblits:

They are very versatile, and can always put some firepower on what I need to take out.

Sometimes I deep strike them to melta something or double tap plasma

Other times I deploy them in cover and snipe. (This is my more common use of them lately)

I have found that they are fragile, not individually, but as a unit they can be wiped out fairly quickly. When they are on the board they are a priority target. This has helped my vehicles survive when I deploy the oblits in cover and the enemy devotes a lot of his missile launchers/lascannons/etc to taking them out.

I have tried everything to deep strike them and have them survive (and I have even managed to do it a couple of times), but when they are close, the enemy will concentrate on wiping them out and has usually been successful. Once again this has benefitted my other troops as the oblits suck up a lot of shooting before they go down.

I only use 1 squad of 3 oblits.

As far as Havoks, I like the idea and I'm going to try a squad with 4 heavy bolters against the orks soon. I might try some autocannons or missile launchers against MEQ. What I like is I can outfit them like a regular CSM squad with a hidden power fist. If I'm not mistaken, you don't have to trade your chainsword for a heavy weapon and they can still fight as well in assault as a normal CSM.

Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

@Brother-Thunder:
I think you are misunderstanding my point and I of yours.
Oblits attracting heavy weapons is GOOD for the rest of the list.
Havocs not attracting that shooting is BAD for the Transports.

While Havocs will attract other kinds of shooting that are better off downing them than the Oblits.

As for:

That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

Details?
Opponents constantly leaving them in outflank charge range?
You can not first turn charge with scouts unless you have Shrike in the list...
The other possibility is if you use the Storm, in which case I would agree that they will do a good number on Oblits, but you are using similar amount of points and one more FoC to deal with them.

sourclams wrote:Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

Counterpoint: Direct hits have the least impact on a horde since it must be centered on one model. Scatters hit more guys.