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ripjaw wrote:I have had games where obliterators gun down necrons, who are promptly ressurected

IIRC Necrons can't get up after being obliterated by plasma cannons.

Plasma Cannon is str 7. Necron Warrior is T 4, so yah they get WBB rolls

Yup, We'll Be Back ain't no Feel No Pain...

To insta kill warriors you need str 8+ weapons, and even then, if a Lord is nearby with resurrection orb, they get their WBB roll no matter what. Then there is the Lord, Immortals, Destroyers, and Heavy Destroyers which have Toughness 5....

/shrug.
I don't care too much about WBB, as long as you are going down....and Monolith Portaled or Veiled anything are juicy targets.

I find terminators a weak option because they may be good for close up tank hunting but they get shot to pieces afterwards

Tyranic Marta wrote:I find terminators a weak option because they may be good for close up tank hunting but they get shot to pieces afterwards

But the counter arguement to that is always that if they're shooting at your small/cheap Terminator squad, they aren't shooting at the more important stuff coming up the board.

Termicide really goes back to the idea of trading one unit for another and hoping to get the best of that trade.

There is also the point difference, 4 Obliterators will run you 300 points whereas 3x3 Termicide squads will cost you 315. I'd say that against light armor spam, Oblit's ability to fire for more than 1 turn will be the winner but against Land Raiders or other heavy armor, the ability of the Termicide to target and destroy 3 tanks will be more important.

Basically, as the AV goes up, Lascannon on the Oblit gets weaker and the Melta on the Termicide gets better.

As counter-arguments go, it's pretty weak when taken out of context. After all, if they're shooting at your weak little Terminator squad, they're more likely to kill it and move onto bigger targets. That's a bad thing in kill-point games, and unless you have more units than the enemy, a bad thing in objective games. If you could get several Terminator squads for every Elite slot, then taking Termicide squads would be a good idea because you wouldn't be losing the opportunity cost of taking other Elite units.

Similarly the point that Termicide Melta fire will out-compete Obliterator Lascannon fire is a false dilemma because Obliterators have the option of either a Multi-Melta or a Twin-Linked Melta Gun, and using Obliterators lets you take Chosen squads for a forward Icon.

ikky2win wrote:Plasma Cannon is str 7. Necron Warrior is T 4, so yah they get WBB rolls

Sorry my mistake. Thought they didn't get WBB from stuff that ignores armor saves.

i guess my style would be 3 man with khorne and chainfists.... good tank hunting

yes but again were not commenting on termies vs blits its havocs vs blits....

Nurglitch wrote:If you could get several Terminator squads for every Elite slot, then taking Termicide squads would be a good idea because you wouldn't be losing the opportunity cost of taking other Elite units.

But what else would you take with your Elite slots? Every other option besides Chosen is subpar and Chosen do the same basic job of suicide special weapon spammers but rely on Rhino/Outflank instead of Deepstrike.

Similarly the point that Termicide Melta fire will out-compete Obliterator Lascannon fire is a false dilemma because Obliterators have the option of either a Multi-Melta or a Twin-Linked Melta Gun, and using Obliterators lets you take Chosen squads for a forward Icon.

That is true but my experience has been that 90% of the time the Oblits are using either their Lascannon or Plasma Cannon. The other weapons are more defensive in nature as they rely on a shorter range (12") to be fired at maximum effect. This means you have less control over when/how you want to use them, making them more backup weapons then primary weapons in my eyes.

And while you could deepstrike the Oblits to use those weapons, then you're paying more points for the same basic role as the Terminators but paying more for it.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying Termicide is better, just that it compliments the weaknesses of Obliterators.

minigun762:

I don't share the opinion that Possessed are "subpar", likewise I don't share the opinion that the only way to use Chosen is outflanking with a Rhino, and finally I think that Terminators have other, better uses than Termicide.

If the Obliterators are competing with Termicide, then they'll be doing the same thing, dropping close and using Melta weapons. They just happen to have several other options besides anti-tank. After all, if the short range was a problem, then we wouldn't even be considering Termicide because they have the same ability to Deep Strike (and use Icons...).

If you're paying more for the same role, presumably you want whatever is filling that role to be more effective. A single Obliterator will be as effective as two Terminators armed with Combi-Melta, and cheaper than two Terminators armed with Combi-Meltas and Powerfists, and tougher to boot while freeing up the Elite slot.

Termicide doesn't complement the weakness of Obliterators because Terminators are more expensive for similar configuration (Trading off Slow and Purposeful against the opportunity to shoot more than once, and with different weapons, and Fearless). They can add redundancy at a premium, but they have no significant improvements in mobility, firepower, or close combat ability. In other word, they can't do anything that a similar amount of Obliterators can't do better, and Obliterators can do more.

You can also do more evil in combination with Obliterators, such as having a Sorcerer of Slaanesh in Terminator Armour join the unit, for their own integral Lash of Submission, or escort a Chaos Lord like Abbadon or Typhus.

I'll add my own caveat, that there are things that Terminators can do that Obliterators can't, but we're discussing Termicide and not a good application of Terminators.

You don't need chosen for icons. All cult troops choices can have 1 for 5 points, and vanilla always have 1. If all troops choices are mechanized then chances are one of them will be close to the enemy, especially land raiders as they will often come to you.

In my experience, lascannon usage is pretty minimal. Starting turn 2 and on I've had made use of all the other shorter ranged weapons.

As for Chose, if it's special weapon delivery, I would agree that Outflanking is the more desirable option.
For other uses, infiltrating does have a use.

As for possessed, if one looks for "Possessed: The Glass Half Full" on this forum, it should tell you where I stand on possessed .
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Oblits vs. Termicides... don't work very well.
At the very least, termicides are less flexible in that they can only bring whatever guns they purchased to begin with and will likely only enter by Deepstrike, which is not always desirable.

I find the main benefit to arming Havocs with Lascannons (and Autocannons, and Missile Launchers) is that the range makes up for the impaired mobility maximizing the use of said weapons will entail. Having 4x-8x the effective range of a Melta weapon is handy beyond the first turn, particularly if they are set up on a flank.

Regarding Havocs in Dawn of War, consider that Havocs can take Rhinos as dedicated transports and use their Searchlights in the first turn, which maximizes the number of Searchlights you can use and thus the number of targets you can hit on the first turn.

What is shooting when your ranged support has to walk/disembark on their turn?
Dreads or Defilers could use the search lights, but in all likelihood you only need 2-3, in which case 2-3 rhinos for 2-3 troops should be in the list already.

Or are we talking about 2 'Tactical' Chaos Space Marine squads with heavy weapons in each?

Sanctjud wrote:What is shooting when your ranged support has to walk/disembark on their turn?
Dreads or Defilers could use the search lights, but in all likelihood you only need 2-3, in which case 2-3 rhinos for 2-3 troops should be in the list already.

Or are we talking about 2 'Tactical' Chaos Space Marine squads with heavy weapons in each?

Oblits are far more dangerous (at least, as I've noticed) when not deep striking in dawn of war. IDK how you play it, but as I have seen played, if Oblits roll a 1 for their SnP move on the first turn for DoW, they die (as their base is >1" so they don't make it onto the board) and a ~16% to have your unit die before doing anything at all (including being shot at by an opponent) is never a good day...

You play with silly rules then.
Any rule on a model that could possibly prevent it from entering the board is ignored, IIRC.
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As an aside, the oblits get onto the board and 'CAN' contribute.
Where as the Havocs NEVER contribute to heavy weapon firing.

Sanctjud wrote:You play with silly rules then.
Any rule on a model that could possibly prevent it from entering the board is ignored, IIRC.

No, only things like "Rage" or "Instinctive Behavior" or things that would PREVENT you from moving PERIOD.

SnP only slows movement, and just as if you were playing with Difficult terrain across you board edge, if you roll a 1 on your SnP (or your difficult terrain check) then you can only move 1", if it takes more then 1" to get onto the board, you die...

(Its pretty much the same justification as to how that one Tau guy used infiltrating Kroot to table his opponent on turn one)

That was a TO call, not RAW.
RAP is variable as seen here and RAI can't help you.

The game breaks as GWAR! would say.

I tend to take Oblits in most o0f my lists. Although i do always have a squad of AC/ML havocs in my box for special occasions.

My fave Oblit moments so far have been 1 'Blit facing downa baneblade for 3 turns and surviving. The other was having a DP try to charge me and comign up just short, well within RF plams gnu range. 6 Tl plasma gun shots later, DP is a smoking husk. yay!!

in situational areas of gameplay blits tend to be very effective, however havocs are always useful, ive gotten into the habit recently of because i run a biker list, i tend to use my heavy support as 3 squads of 5 havocs with 4 autocannons, and they either A kick but, or B get shot to bits and it isnt a problem because they are cheaper than your average infantry squad, this means that in the same situation, i wouldnt be able to feild as many blits to start with, (so less shooty) and when thwey do get shot up it hurts alot more points wise

I like obliterators, because they have plasma cannons. Your havocs can't get them. Every weapon worth having that a havoc can take, an Obliterator can take, and a few of them are even twinlinked. The exception is missile launchers, but lascannons do it better.

Soulx wrote:I like obliterators, because they have plasma cannons. Your havocs can't get them. Every weapon worth having that a havoc can take, an Obliterator can take, and a few of them are even twinlinked. The exception is missile launchers, but lascannons do it better.

srsly, for people who like autocannons, i face palm that post

I don't even like Autocannons, but I won't deny they are a valuable tool.

... im not gonna comment other than....
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't like autocannons though. I would never take them. What I mean, is for every GOOD weapon a havoc can take, an obliterator already has it.

Darkhound: I don't like Autocannons either, I just say that to get them into bed.