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dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Grundz wrote:right, also devourer gaunts, if you can catch the council outside of combat you can put a horrendous amount of wounds on them.

Okay, I'm gonna show you guys how pointless this all has been. This unit is OP for a reason, and here's why:

except for the following
-you always screen devourer gaunts with something
-assaulted front unit likely have feel no pain, i dont know the str of seer council attacks, but was pretty sure it wasn't enough to bypass this
-you want the unit to be wiped out if assualted so you can mass-assault them next turn and gain full bonuses.

Lets assume that the person wasn't dumb and put something in front of his ap-nothing devourers and gets a full turn off, or the devourers were properly supported
--Full squad of bikers with fortune
--30 devourer gaunts, 2 squads of 8 gaunts lets say from tervi's, so 46 total tervigon, maybe a hive tyrant
11 bikers to start, 2 die from shooting lets say, so 9 starting close combat phase

WITHOUT PARADOXYM
gaunts attack at I5, so at the same time
92 attacks, 41 hits, 21 starting wounds, then 10ish more from poison reroll
31 wounds, even with good armor rerolls thats probably a dead squad

WITH PARADOXYM
gaunts attack at I5, so at the same time
92 attacks, around 60 hits
30 wounds , then another 15 more from reroll, dead unit note that with paradoxym you dont really even need the devourers.

Gargoyles will get similiar numbers with 1/6th more wounds due to blinding poison.
If the shattered remains of this squad don't wipe out all the attackers, its gg seers.

its /all/ about getting the charge, which is difficult.

Basically you want one the following
1. to have a fast unit that can get the assault off on seers, gargoyles, and play cat and mouse with them, keeping them out of combat longer.
2. a sponge of garbage gaunts that will absorb the seer's assault.

look dbgoldberg323, seer councils are built round the farseer; without the farseer they don't work. Also a unit that costs around 300 on foot and 500 on bikes, if they're stuck killing 50pts of gaunts they've failed.

End of the day kill the farseer and its over.

@ Tri - You're trolling now. I've posted mathematical statistics that show 30 gaunts at 300 points fail epically to the Seer Council. Why would your flawed comment of "50pts of gaunts" make a SINGLE bit of difference? Pay attention!

@ Grundz - No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die from No Retreat.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die form No Retreat.

So if all the high value units are screened with gaunts so you can't charge them what exactly does the council do? Just sit there?

Tri wrote:So if all the high value units are screened with gaunts so you can't charge them what exactly does the council do? Just sit there?

No, they go somewhere else.

If you're making a silly, jelly-filled doughnut with your army, it gets blasted apart by Fire Prisms and/or Night Spinners.

That Seer Council list has MORE THAN SEER COUNCIL IN IT.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:No. Gaunts will NEVER charge the Seer Council, or the player using them is "doing it wrong". FURTHERMORE, that would mean that the Gaunts would NOT get the re-roll in combat because they would remain S3 vs T4. IN ADDITION, you're talking about a TON of models in that set-up there. The SMART Eldar player will hold the council back and light-up those units willy-nilly until they're ready to charge with them. That doesn't mean a "win" for Tyranids, as they still have a problem of mobility where Eldar excel in that very spot. AND EVEN THEN, YOU'RE forgetting that the Farseer will have Runes of Warding (same as Shadow in the Warp) across the table. So the Seer Council casts 18" away (successfully) and THEN charges in so that they have the bonuses. AND FINALLY, you're forgetting about this concept of Multi-Assault, where the Seer Council involves some of those Tervigons and makes them poop themselves as they die form No Retreat.

-no one in their right mind would ever pile in with the tervigons
-gargoyles can get the assault just as easily as seers can get the assault on gaunts.
-while the sear council is dicking around trying to get around the gaunt screen so they can get the assault on something good, the tyranid player is stomping across the board and keeping 500+ points at bay, with gaunts, also with a big enough "phalanx" as it were, you are possibly leaving the seers dangerously close to outflanking genestealer territory, you are talking about a 12" assault bubble around a formation about 12" across in the middle of the board, and then 18" on either side, not leaving very much wiggle room for standard eldar dicking around with fast movement.
-I haven't had much problem with eldar template weapons doing huge amounts of damage to the formation since you usually have priority targets like hive guard or deep striking trygons to take the heat off of the poor gaunts. all they do is buy you time to stomp across the map
-Multi assault also does not work since you cannot move through units to assualt those in the back, again, spread out gaunts, a common tactic is to tank shock the gaunts then assault the tervi's, or shoot the gaunts to thin them out, luck, cover, and feel no pain can make this a risky operation to rely on killing enough to get off the assault.
-In the unlikely case you have extra elite slots, a venomthrope or 2 can also make your phalanx even more unattractive to assault with defensive grenades and forcing the bikers to take dangerous terrain.

-we're also making the wild assumption that the eldar player isn't a much better player than the tyranid one, but Ive faced seers a number of times and never had too much difficulty with them against reasonably skilled opponents.

Grundz wrote:-no one in their right mind would ever pile in with the tervigons

Seer Council piles into THEM.

Grundz wrote:-gargoyles can get the assault just as easily as seers can get the assault on gaunts.

Good. They die too, it's math.

Grundz wrote:-while the sear council is dicking around trying to get around the gaunt screen so they can get the assault on something good, the tyranid player is stomping across the board and keeping 500+ points at bay, with gaunts, also with a big enough "phalanx" as it were, you are possibly leaving the seers dangerously close to outflanking genestealer territory, you are talking about a 12" assault bubble around a formation about 12" across in the middle of the board, and then 18" on either side, not leaving very much wiggle room for standard eldar dicking around with fast movement.

I play Tyranids. Tervigons and Gaunts are NOT a reliable killy force. They's gaunts man! As for Stealers, please don't make me laugh. They do NOTHING to the Seer Council. The gaunts with buffs do substantially more, in fact.

Grundz wrote:-Multi assault also does not work since you cannot move through units to assualt those in the back, again, spread out gaunts, a common tactic is to tank shock the gaunts then assault the tervi's, or shoot the gaunts to thin them out, luck, cover, and feel no pain can make this a risky operation to rely on killing enough to get off the assault.

I never said "charge through the gaunts". However, refer to my post about the "jelly-filled doughnut" about grouping your units up.

Grundz wrote:-In the unlikely case you have extra elite slots, a venomthrope or 2 can also make your phalanx even more unattractive to assault with defensive grenades and forcing the bikers to take dangerous terrain.

Okay, and if we're going to sit here and 1-up units, let's discuss a 2,000 point army vs a 2,000 point army. Seriously, do NOT bring other units in to defend the tactic, when I can simply do the same irrelevant thing and explain that your non-IC Venomthropes are T4 and not immune to ID. GO GO Bright Lances! (And yes, they're worth a pot shot to drop the buffs it will grant).

10 Warlocks with a Jetbike = 450

6 Destructors = 60 points

2 Emboldens = 10 points

2 Enhances = 30 points

Farseer with a Jetbike, Spirit stones, Doom and Fortune = 160 points

Points total: 710 points

710 points for a Seer council like the one given as example by dbgoldberg323.

And about a month of hardcore conversion work on all of them. If they were anything short of amazing, no one in their right mind would play them.

Just saying there's absolutely nothing cheap or broken about them. They work as intended.

'Nids no doubt have trouble against them, but it shouldn't be that hard singleing out the Farseer in close combat. Once he's dead, the Council follows. Deathstar? Certainly. Unbeatable? Certainly not. Risky to field? Without a doubt.

I'm just saying that to give you perspective at what such a unit costs and every army out there has ways to counter it. There's nothing cheesy about it. In fact, it takes a lot of hard work and experience with the hobby to convert the Council and that is by no means "bad for the hobby".

@ goldberg

this thread is about seers @ a 1500 point level which will have limited support options, you may want to read the thread in its entirety again.

Since this thread is about how to deal with them, not how you can try to shoot down every option that has worked for other players in the past through fuzzy map like you seem to think, and you know the ins and outs of how any player will position any model or formation to attempt to foil you before they do or mention it, perhaps you can provide some insight into how /you/ would deal with them.

you might also want to read this thread as well: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/319323.page#1970287

Thanks for the total Araenion ...End of the day 11 eldar will not win.
3 Bare Fire Prisms 345points (1050pts)
2x 10 Dire Avengers + exarch and blade storm in a WS 504pts (1554pts)
Need some fire dragons so 2x 5 + WS 360pts (1914pts)

Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.

Tri wrote:Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.

at 1500, there won't be 10 Council members, but 8 is more likely.

As for "not being impressed", no one asked. Eldar (with the exception of foot-dar lists) have low model counts, especially at 1500 points. Thanks, 4th Edition.

Fought them last night for the first time. Gargoyles followed with 3 Shrikes with the Parasite. Did wonders.

Acardia wrote:Fought them last night for the first time. Gargoyles followed with 3 Shrikes with the Parasite. Did wonders.

Wow! Grats!

It's a tough nut to crack with Tyranids, that's for sure.

Like any other dead 'ard unit, I think the best option is to bury them in wounds. SITW and a ton of little gribblies with FNP and Furious Charge should be able to at least tie the Council down and let the rest of your army deal with the rest of the Eldar.

Maybe it's just around here, but I find that a lot of Eldar players start with a few things in reserve as well, so you should be able to work that to your advantage as well.

My 2 cents.

It's tough at 1500 points anyways, at 2k I think the dual council build loses a lot, as you have to actually start bringing other stuff at that level, otherwise it is 22 models VS an army. Sure, the 22 models will kill a lot, they will also get blasted by S6+ weapons. Rely on shadow, blast him with as many bullets as you can muster, and screen your big guys, then spawn a gaunt counter-charge. Make sure you spread your big-bugs out, so a single multi-charge can't kill everything.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Tri wrote:Ok haven't spent 86pts but so far all i have is 48 models (including the 7 tanks) ... I'm unimpressed.

at 1500, there won't be 10 Council members, but 8 is more likely.

As for "not being impressed", no one asked. Eldar (with the exception of foot-dar lists) have low model counts, especially at 1500 points. Thanks, 4th Edition.

... thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.

Tri wrote:.. thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Tri wrote:.. thats not a 1.5K list thats a 2K list. Oh and you saved 90-110pts big woop dee do.

well go on then list you exact 1.5k list and show me how you do it. From everything I've seen Bike Councils are good but each model cost at least 45pts and thats what dooms it to failure vs nids.

Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.

Deathleaper the Farseer and simply wait for Fortune to fail.

Screen a shadow-in-the-warp-er and simply wait for Fortune to fail on a Deathleaper-ed Farseer.

The Farseer is the lynchpin, as others have already pointed out.

And also, Marines have pretty much made the Jetseers an endangered species. I understand you're having a real tough time wth them; simply wait until he begins to bash his face into a psychic hooded Death Company squad with 3+ and FNP and watch your meta change.

Manchu wrote:Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.

Relax, please. I wasn't offensive and I wasn't "spamming". The super sweet Orky GIF's happen to be fairly detailed.

So, translation:

"Um, 90-110 points is not enough of a points decrease at 1500 points? You're silly."

--edit--
And you guys are forgetting that SitW is negated by Runes of Witnessing. WHO CARES about SitW. Ld 10 yo, Ld 10!

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Responding only with orkmoticons is tantamount to spamming. Discussion in tactics requires respectful contributions.

Relax, please. I wasn't offensive and I wasn't "spamming". The super sweet Orky GIF's happen to be fairly detailed.

So, translation:

"Um, 90-110 points is not enough of a points decrease at 1500 points? You're silly."

... Not when the rest of the unit still costs 520+ points ... Second time I'll ask; show me your 1.5k list.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
--edit--
And you guys are forgetting that SitW is negated by Runes of Witnessing. WHO CARES about SitW. Ld 10 yo, Ld 10!

Not against Deathleaper. Ld 7-9 yo, Ld 7-9!

sourclams wrote:

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Ld 7-9 yo, Ld 7-9!

Avg Ld on 2d6 is 7 yo, 7!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote: ... Not when the rest of the unit still costs 520+ points ... Second time I'll ask; show me your 1.5k list.

I don't play Space Elves, I just know what they do (I happen to read most codexes). I'm not the best person BY FAR to ask on these boards on how to make a 1500 pt Seer Council list.

But here's a stab at it. Remember, 1500 points hurts bugs too. There won't be so many big nasties in 1.5k...

1,500 Points - Eldar

HQ
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide)
5x Warlocks (Jetbike, 1x Enhance, 3x Destructor, 1x Embolden)

Elite
5x Fire Dragons + Exarch (7 models) (Exarch has Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crack Shot)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Troops
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Heavy Support
Fire Prism (Holo Field, Spirit Stones)
2x War Walkers (2x Scatter Lasers each)

Tactics
One Dire Avenger unit deploys near an objective (or goes into reserve in Kill Points), and with cover and defend, they are fantastic at holding objectives. Keep the War Walkers nearby for support (though they are nice on the offensive). Use the 2 Wave Serpents and the Fire Prism to pick off what you need. What the Seer Council can't deal with for more than a turn, Bladestorm/Fusion Gun it. PS: NO shadow in the warp for you, and your powers DO need to roll 3d6 and take the two highest.

You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.

sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.

You will fail to roll a 3 (on the d3 roll) consistently. At this point you're being optimistic and unreasonable.

use the deathleaper to reduce leadership, and then drop the doom of malantai right into them.

If they are mequed then you have a problem since the nerf on nids.

Now we're down to 5 Jetseers? That's not nearly enough to be an instant win sledgehammer unit. I actually think it's a better choice in a smaller game, but 5 guys getting charged by Gargoyles are going to be tarpitted and whittled down, even with Fortune up, simply because they can't kill enough models before their opponents swing.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
But here's a stab at it. Remember, 1500 points hurts bugs too. There won't be so many big nasties in 1.5k...

1,500 Points - Eldar

HQ
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide)
5x Warlocks (Jetbike, 1x Enhance, 3x Destructor, 1x Embolden)

Elite
5x Fire Dragons + Exarch (7 models) (Exarch has Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crack Shot)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Troops
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
9x Dire Avengers + Exarch (10 models) (Exarch has Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend)
Wave Serpent with TL-Bright Lance

Heavy Support
Fire Prism (Holo Field, Spirit Stones)
2x War Walkers (2x Scatter Lasers each)

Tactics
One Dire Avenger unit deploys near an objective (or goes into reserve in Kill Points), and with cover and defend, they are fantastic at holding objectives. Keep the War Walkers nearby for support (though they are nice on the offensive). Use the 2 Wave Serpents and the Fire Prism to pick off what you need. What the Seer Council can't deal with for more than a turn, Bladestorm/Fusion Gun it. PS: NO shadow in the warp for you, and your powers DO need to roll 3d6 and take the two highest.

Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.
Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?
5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is ... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer
Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML
Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.

I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...

sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.

and you didn't pick that up from the previous replies in this thread?
I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.