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Hey Guys,

Game after game losing to jetbike seer council destructor spam, I'm clueless how to beat them with tyranid. Please share some of your successful tactics and stories. What unit combinations are best to play against them? How did you beat those space elf at 1500 pts level?

Thanks

New Player wrote:How did you beat those space elf at 1500 pts level?

It's actually quite easy.
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.

Flying Seer Council is not "fluffy", or "nice". It's not going to be a fun game, so tell him to have some originality.

Otherwise, ya can't beat them. I'm not going to waste your time and math-hammer it all out, but they are nigh unstoppable. Jawaballs is a moron.

Happy hunting!

Wow, temper tantrum much?

First of, Shadow in the Warp will help against the inevitable fortune. Death Leaper can also be used to make the seer council less likely to get its lolinvul save off.
Then take them out with large broods of Gargoyles. Your speed should be enough to get a charge off, and as long as you charge them and not the other way around they can't destructor you.

Yeah, I guess tarpitting them is the only way. They've seriously been annoying at our LGS, to the point that it drove out fellow gamers, hence the rage.

Better off not playing the tard, and having fun with all-comers balanced lists. Trust me, you'll love the game more.

Just out of mild curiosity, wouldn't a Heavy Venom Cannon really ruin the Counsil's day?

Although tar-pitting Gargoyles seems to be the way to go, unless you count overhauling the table through rage as a tactic.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Just out of mild curiosity, wouldn't a Heavy Venom Cannon really ruin the Counsil's day?

No.
They have a 3+/4++ save WITH re-rolls. They are known for being very killy AND resilient.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Although tar-pitting Gargoyles seems to be the way to go, unless you count overhauling the table through rage as a tactic.

...I have NEVER done that...

If you can tie them down long enough with large gaunt squads run the Swarmlord into them. He will do a number on them.

A buddy of mine ran into that at 'Ard Boyz this year. Black Templars terminators eliminated most of them , then the Emperor's Champion finished them off...

Shadow in the warp will level the playing field a little.

Speed v speed! Go winged and CC, parasite of mortrex can instakill. Harpy, flyrant etc can force them to rely on invul save in CC. Shrikes with boneswords are also fun ...

Use gargoyles to pin them, then send the big hitters in to finish them off.

Doom of malantai?

Paroxysm and tyrant?

Onslaught on tervigon and mass gaunts?

Mawloc and deep strike?

Plenty of options to try. Rememeber that will often be 500 points in one unit, so you can afford to throw plenty at it!

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.

Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.



Seriously, New Player, it would help to know what models you have available, but the bike council has a lot of weaknesses. It's a difficult matchup for tyranids because their weapons basically ignore toughness, and toughness is one of the major defenses that nids use. But they're also not power weapons, they're not fearless, and they're so expensive that if you can defeat the bike council, you've pretty much defeated the Eldar player.

You should be able to spread out enough that a destructor template will only hit 3-4 models to minimize casualties. Remember that he can only move 12" and still shoot destructor, so you should be able to anticipate where it's coming and set up your countercharge.

Catalyst, if you can pull it off, will allow a swarm of little bugs to bog down the bike council at least. Genestealers with catalyst could some serious damage to them.

If you have the models, Deathleaper reducing the farseer's leadership in combination with The Horror can run them off the table (they'll probably have a re-roll). Failing that, paroxysm will nerf their ability to fight you in HtH.

Finally, in hand-to-hand combat is probably your best chance to defeat them. Focus attacks on the farseer (he's an independent character, so you can do that), especially str6+ attacks that will insta-kill him if he fails even one save. Once he goes down, the unit loses fortune and are much easier to deal with.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.

OH NOES! A TROLL! I thought, so far during my pleasant stay on DakkaDakka, that there weren't any here!

Guess I was wrong.

But a little late aren't you? I have already explained:

dbgoldberg323 wrote:Yeah, I guess tarpitting them [the flying Seer Council] is the only way. They've seriously been annoying at our LGS, to the point that [they] drove out fellow gamers, hence the rage.

Better off not playing the tard, and having fun with all-comers balanced lists. Trust me, you'll love the game more.

Now get out of here before you ruin my DakkaDakka experience!

Flavius Infernus wrote:

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Don't play the douchebag, and yell at him until he leaves the store. Our club got rid of these players easily. They never got a game because people simply said "no thanks" when they asked for games.

Yes, drive people away from the hobby. Especially people you can't beat. That way you never have to step up your own game or learn to play better.



Seriously, New Player, it would help to know what models you have available, but the bike council has a lot of weaknesses. It's a difficult matchup for tyranids because their weapons basically ignore toughness, and toughness is one of the major defenses that nids use. But they're also not power weapons, they're not fearless, and they're so expensive that if you can defeat the bike council, you've pretty much defeated the Eldar player.

You should be able to spread out enough that a destructor template will only hit 3-4 models to minimize casualties. Remember that he can only move 12" and still shoot destructor, so you should be able to anticipate where it's coming and set up your countercharge.

Catalyst, if you can pull it off, will allow a swarm of little bugs to bog down the bike council at least. Genestealers with catalyst could some serious damage to them.

If you have the models, Deathleaper reducing the farseer's leadership in combination with The Horror can run them off the table (they'll probably have a re-roll). Failing that, paroxysm will nerf their ability to fight you in HtH.

Finally, in hand-to-hand combat is probably your best chance to defeat them. Focus attacks on the farseer (he's an independent character, so you can do that), especially str6+ attacks that will insta-kill him if he fails even one save. Once he goes down, the unit loses fortune and are much easier to deal with.

Flavius is absolutely right. There are alot of tools at your disposal to defeat the seer council, but it would be helpful for us to know what you have available so we can help you select appropriate units and tactics from what you have.

Another thing to remember about CC, is that the council will most likely have I5 (Farseer I6) from enhance, so make sure whatever you attack them with either has decent initiative, or can weather alot of wounds before having a chance to swing. I'd say any unit with high initiative backed up by a Tervigon's FNP and some S6 sprinkled in is a good place to start.

Also, as Flav said, they aren't fearless, so if you can reduce their Leadership through the deathleaper, and shut down Fortune with Shadow of the Warp, you'll have a much easier time.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Now get out of here before you ruin my DakkaDakka experience!

If you have any desire to extend your Dakka experience then I suggest you calm down, don't insult other users who offer perfectly good advice and refrain from describing people who field perfectly legal and valid forces as "tards" and the like. Otherwise it seems distinctly possible your experience will be, alas, short and sweet.

reds8n wrote:don't insult other users who offer perfectly good advice

Sure thing. Just a bit miffed at the indirect "if you don't play every list, even the abusive ones, YOU are tactically deficient" comment, subtly strewn into his PC statement.

reds8n wrote:and refrain from describing people who field perfectly legal and valid forces as "tards" and the like.

Done and done, however I refuse, however stiff the "punishment", to refer to said people as "good for the hobby" and "polite gaming partners" when it is obvious they strive for the opposite.

"Warning" understood, rage over.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
"Warning" understood, rage over.

Good man !

I think, from past experience with the posters here, you are reading a bit too much into some of the preceeding comments.

I guess I did.

@OP: However, for actual advice, considering a simple 10-Elf unit costs 600? points, either ignore them completely or focus on them (or use the tar-pit tactic as described above).

They WILL walk through your army, and if you'd like, I can quickly math-hammer out how frickin sweet they actually are against T6, AV14, etc.

Just know they are "popular" for a reason...

Sorry about the snippiness, dbgoldberg. As somebody who has lived through the implosion of several gaming groups because of infighting over issues just like this one, I'm a little overly sensitive about it I guess.

I personally enjoy both fluffy/compy 40K and competitive/cutthroat 40K. I don't agree that any legal list is "abusive," and mathhammer notwithstanding, I don't think any unit is that uber. Particularly the bike council, which has major weaknesses that have actually made it much less popular around where I play (I only know one guy who still runs it).

A balanced, all-comers competitive army from any codex, in my experience, can beat the bike council. Including Tyranids.

Oh, and welcome to Dakka

Flavius Infernus wrote:Sorry about the snippiness, dbgoldberg. As somebody who has lived through the implosion of several gaming groups because of infighting over issues just like this one, I'm a little overly sensitive about it I guess.

No problem. Sorry I flipped the out! I have a bad habit of doing so, to the point that people at my LGS call it a "Dave Rage". FML.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I personally enjoy both fluffy/compy 40K and competitive/cutthroat 40K. I don't agree that any legal list is "abusive," and mathhammer notwithstanding, I don't think any unit is that uber. Particularly the bike council, which has major weaknesses that have actually made it much less popular around where I play (I only know one guy who still runs it).

A balanced, all-comers competitive army from any codex, in my experience, can beat the bike council. Including Tyranids.

I'd love to see it. And I'm not calling you out, just saying that I would REALLY love to see it. There was a guy at my LGS, as I had mentioned before, who ran that list repeatedly, and boasted about how his army was the best and he's the best player at our LGS. We quickly ran him out because of it, and have taken poorly to similar Flying Seer Council lists since. Problem was, he only lost 3 games out of hundreds so he was the type where he was "good" and "knew it".

Honestly, Seer Council is bad. And wrong. They're "badong".

its a deathstar unit, tyranids aren't that great against them, best plan is to fight them like storm shield terminators and throw lots of dice at them.

gargoyles can do the job pretty well, you just need to get the charge off, as can outflanking genestealers if you can draw them to the outside of the board.

Remember shadows and the warp, many times I forget this. tie them up then paradoxym them, and ruin their day with little bugs. also remember that they have problems assaulting into terrain iirc because they are jetbikes, and they can't assult overtop any unit so anything you screen with gaunts or gargs is pretty unassaultable.

remember anything poisoned and with Str equal to or greater than their base str can reroll wounds.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
I'd love to see it. And I'm not calling you out, just saying that I would REALLY love to see it.

Here's a battle report by Mafty where an ordinary balanced ork army beat his bike council, outmaneuvering and then overwhelming them with large numbers of attacks (like nids would be able to do). With pics.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318240.page#1953392

Granted, at that same tournament Mafty did defeat a nid army in round 1, but that nid player made some serious mistakes and basically fed his army to the bike council.

[Edit to elaborate on that battle report]

Mafty's tyranid opponent might consider phasing out the 4th edition, broodlord-run genestealer units and just going for bigger units. The rest of his army looks good enough to have won that game, or at least to have done much better.

I think his biggest mistake was reserving the trygons and stealers. Mafty's army, after all those points spent on the bike council, really didn't have enough shooting to seriously threaten a first turn alpha strike, the nid player wound up deepstriking and outflanking into his own deployment zone anyway. If he'd deployed everything he could have sent the trygons into the grav tanks and split up Mafty's shooting. As it was, Mafty only had to deal with one threat at a time as they straggled in from reserve and popped up individually, out of position. This is something I see nid players doing a lot--reserving trygons and genestealers against mech armies where it would be better to deploy them and cross the table. Against a static army that's going to try to stay away from you, outflanking and deepstriking is good, but against a mobile opponent you need the mass of threat zones on the table to box in the vehicles. Trygons are fast for monstrous creatures--threat range 13-19"--and they have the attacks and dual scytals that give them the ability to hurt skimmers. But only if they're actually on the table.

If you don't let the council get off a multi-charge, they can only handle one unit at a time.

I think Deathleaper and Catalysted Horde are really good options here. eventually he'll fail a Psychic test and you can drag him down through mass of attacks or pick out the farseer.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:
Granted, at that same tournament Mafty did defeat a nid army in round 1, but that nid player made some serious mistakes and basically fed his army to the bike council.

nobs are pretty good in cloes combat but realistically the same job could be done pretty easily by 2 units of gargs/stealers or 2 units of most any other small bug properly supported. Once they are tied up moving in a tervigon and pooping out reinforcements+shadows in the warping + buffing the mobs should be pretty much game over as long as you had enough to keep them tied up.

pretty much once they are tied up you can pile in or move close to them, as soon as they miss a psychic test they should all go down.

I am not a big nid player so I can't give you exacts but here is some basic advice.
If you get first turn or he has to come off the table edge and you have some descent long range with venom cannons and the like you should be able to take a chunk out. (I play guard, only time I ran into a seer council I killed them turn 1 with 4 Lemon Russ tanks.) Remember he has to use all his psychic powers at the beginning of his turn before any movement. If this isn't impossible tarpit the crap out of them and then large groups of small guys. Once they are locked in they simply don't get a lot of attacks. Warlocks are base 1 I believe, and farseer base 2 attacks, and they allow armour saves and FNP rolls. As said gargoyles, harpies, or Shrikes are you best bets to steal a charge, and disallow the million destructor template fun. And don't feel bad. This is one of the most durable units in the entire game, and a lot of people don't play against it very often because the bulk of your casual gamers A) Don't use the Eldar book because it is an older codex and needs a lot of practice and skill to use properly, and B) It's a conversion only unit, having to make your own models turns some people off.

right, also devourer gaunts, if you can catch the council outside of combat you can put a horrendous amount of wounds on them.

Grundz wrote:right, also devourer gaunts, if you can catch the council outside of combat you can put a horrendous amount of wounds on them.

Okay, I'm gonna show you guys how pointless this all has been. This unit is OP for a reason, and here's why:

THIRTY Devourer Gaunts fire at 10 Jetbikes + 1 Farseer Jetbike. Ouch, right?

30 Devourer Gaunts = 90 shots @ BS3 S4
90 Shots = 45 hits (90 x 3/6 to hit)
45 hits = 15 wounds (45 x 2/6 to wound)
15 wounds = 5 "dead" (15 x 2/6 failed saves)
5 "dead" = 2 "dead" (5 x 2/6 failed saves) <-- Fortuned!
Not enough to even cause a morale check with that silly "-1".

8 bikes and the Farseer left.

And then the reward,

8 bikes use 5 Destructors on the unit and if they don't COMPLETELY pick them up (which is likely), we'll go straight to assault.

8 bikes + a Farseer charge THIRTY non-destructored Devourer Gaunts, and for S's & G's, we'll grant them the 6" range from a Tervigon with Toxin Sacs and his special "Counter Charge" ability that he also gives them.

Seer Council casts Doom on the gaunts, and fortune on themselves.
8 bikes and the Farseer go FIRST at Initiative 5.
8 bikes and the Farseer = 39 WS5 attacks that wound on 2's.
39 attacks = 26 hits (39 x 4/6 to hit)
26 hits = 22 wounds (26 x 5/6 to wound)
22 wounds = 18 dead

12 Gaunts attack back with 2 attacks each (counter charge) wounding on 4's (toxin sacs).
24 attacks = 12 hits (24 x 3/6 to hit)
12 hits = 6 wounds (12 x 3/6 to wound)
6 wounds = 2 "dead" (6 x 4/6 to save)
2 "dead" = 0 casualties (2 x 4/6 to save)

Combat is lost by 18 wounds, and since the remaining 12 Gaunts are Fearless (to be getting those 6" buffs), they take 18 No Retreat wounds, thus getting wiped out to the Gaunt.

The Jetbikes consolidate d6" and prepare to kill another 300 POINT UNIT.

Imagine if the bikes would have been able to reach the Tervigon and have it make 18 3+ No Retreat saves?

Sure the unit's expensive, but they do amazing things.

By the way, in case you're wondering, YES, they usually only lose TWO TO THREE MODELS to even the craziest things, like three Punisher Leman Russes, 3 shots from a Manticore, an all power weapon assault squad (vets, DC, etc).

3+ (armor) / 4+ (invul) / 5+ ("Conceal" cover) plus a re-roll is HOT.

... but no one puts 30 gaunts in a single unit! With a tervigon that will be 3 or maybe even 4/5 units and the jetbikes will not be able to multi-assault all of those units.

I'd be happy for the eldar to charge and wipe out a 10 man squad of gaunts to put them in range for my turn. Remaining 20 gaunts shoot again and the unit is then charged by flyrant, shrikes, stealers.

With shadow in the warp that's also a big risk for each warlock taking it's psy test.

ruminator wrote:With shadow in the warp that's also a big risk for each warlock taking it's psy test.

Hence the 12" flight and 6" assault. Doom and Fortune are cast at the start of the Eldar turn so they're conveniently out of range of Shadow In The Warp before they leap in, farting in the Tyranids general direction.

Warlocks don't take psychic tests, only farseers do.

First, Shadow in the Warp will be a big help, as after that 1st turn movement, the Eldar council will most definetely be in range.

Second, remember that eldar can't cast psychic powers and turboboost, and since the powers are cast at the beginning of the turn, cannot be cast on the turn they come on from reserves. (Although both are open to interpretation, see YMDC threads)

Third, the council is not fearless. All you have to do is smoke the Farseer with S6 in CC, and the rest of the council will fall. Most of the big scary tyrants and such should be able to do this, and you know he will be coming for you in CC anyway.

Deathleaper lowering leadership will give the Farseer a tough time getting his powers off with Shadow of the Warp in effect, and will also make the council more likely to run away if they lose a fight in CC as well.

Remember, that any bug you can get a decent save on, through FNP or what have you, will fair pretty well against the seer council since even though they wound on 2+, they don't count as power weapons. (Do nids have any 2+ save beasties?)

The seer council has several glaring weaknesses much like Nob Bikers that can be exploited, you just have to go for them.

Look the biggest asset of the seer council is they wound anything on a 2+ and they have a 4++ save that is rerollable (3+ on bikes)

Just tarpit them with guants. Backed up with a Tervigon casting its power (catalist? which ever gives FnP) and the concils stuck. Also once in combat throw all your attacks (well the max you can) at the farseer; once the farseer is dead they loose the rerolls and should crumble.

But most importantly keep the big guys clear of them.

Tri wrote:Look the biggest asset of the seer council is they wound anything on a 2+ and they have a 4++ save that is rerollable (3++ on bikes)

Just tarpit them with guants. Backed up with a Tervigon casting its power (catalist? which ever gives FnP) and the concils stuck. Also once in combat throw all your attacks (well the max you can) at the farseer; once the farseer is dead they loose the rerolls and should crumble.

But most importantly keep the big guys clear of them.

1. No, they don't have a 3++, just a 3+/4++ re-roll anything.
2. Please take the time to READ the thread you're posting in, where I easily explain that the silly gaunts are NOT a tar-pit. Less gaunts with FnP does not mean they're better, in fact they're worse and will still lose and die due to No Retreat.

As for White Dragon, remember that two of the Seer Council (if built correclty) should have Embolden, which allows a re-roll of the Leadership tests.