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dbgoldberg323 wrote:.....

how did you get 7 models on FD? 5+1=6
counsil on your list is joke
torrent of fire will kill them fast

otherwise that list looks like nice snack for my eldar

and check faq
seer w/Row roll 2d6 versus the shadow

Devastator wrote:
and check faq
seer w/Row roll 2d6 versus the shadow

I'll have to do that, last I checked the ruling was 4d6, pick lowest 3 but this was a while back.

Volume of fire will drop them and they aren't unbeatable. Minus the farseer, a full bike council is costing him 450 without abilities, probably 550 plus 150 for the farseer. It should be nigh unbeatable for 700 points. Depending on the point totals, he should be fielding little else at 1000-1200 and it is still half his army at higher point totals.

My suggestion is play death leaper and see how hot his farseer can get with a Ld 7-9 to get off his one fortune and doom. With enhance he is also counting on 5 WS and 2+ wound to carry the day. Try tyrannid prime with warriors. He will not appreciate him only hitting on 4s and you hitting on 3s. Tack in poisoned attacks and he won't be happy.

Again with all his points in this one basket the other option is ignore it as much as possible and destroy the rest. He should be dying in objective games with that much in a non scoring unit. Just concentrate on his troop choices and laugh in every objective-based game.

FNP through Catalyst or the tyrant ability that makes him WS 1 are also options but then you are counting on psychic against eldar - not really good.

Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.

Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me.

Tri wrote:Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?

Yeah, though if you don't play Eldar, I suppose you have no idea what it's for. It's okay, I won't tell ya.

Tri wrote:5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is

He provides much needed "blinder" removers. Now they do more than ONE thing.

Tri wrote:... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer

Ever heard of re-rolling wounds? Guess not.

Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML

No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

Tri wrote:Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.

Durability, and if it gets stunned (can and will hapen), it can STILL MOVE to reposition. It's called tactics. There's a whole thread on this stuff somewhere...

Tri wrote:I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...

Useless argument is in relation to this thread. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Grundz wrote:I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY trying to tell me "how things work" with Eldar, and you don't know the rules that you're arguing against? Yes, simply, SitW and Runes of Witnessing negate eachother (IF shadow is in it's puny 12" range).

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML

No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

ever heard EML?

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.

Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me. .

angry troll is angry

Devastator wrote:ever heard EML?

Ever heard of AV13+?

devastator wrote: angry troll is angry

Nah, just havin fun. Tonight's my LGS's 40k night, so I'm pumped to put this to the test.

I have had enough of this disruptive, argumentative posting. Everyone involved can cease now or be given suspensions.

Apologies, I thought it was all in good fun. No idea people were taking it so seriously. I find discussions that prompt me to build a list and understand an army better, furthers my knowledge in the game and helps me get a better grasp on that army.

Cease and Desist order acknowledged.

Thanks, dbgoldberg232, I appreciate your cooperation.

Though, since the OP WAS discussing 1500 in the first post, I guess that's the question, can Eldar really do Seer Council correctly at 1500?

2,000? Sure, no problem.

2,500? Two of them, no problem.

1,500? Eh? Dunno. The guys have brought up some good points.

dbgoldberg323 wrote:

Tri wrote:Where to start ... well i guess its with the mistakes.

Get off your high horse and quit trying to troll like me.

Tri wrote:Farseer has 3 powers. Sure its nice to be able to choose but do you really need to guide?

Yeah, though if you don't play Eldar, I suppose you have no idea what it's for. It's okay, I won't tell ya.

If you want your Farseer TL-units guns thats fine but theres not much point if he's going to be charging into combat.

Tri wrote:5 fire dragons + exarch = 5 firedragons ... even if you count the exarch as another model it would still only be 6models ...they don't need an exarch they're good enough as is

He provides much needed "blinder" removers. Now they do more than ONE thing.

Crack shot lets his shooting ignore cover and reroll wounds ...and its a heavy flamer in a unit of meltas wasting the highest BS model. Something’s wrong if fire dragons are needed for a heavy flamer … and he costs 33pts.

Tri wrote:... not to mention that you've given crack shot to a model with only a flamer

Ever heard of re-rolling wounds? Guess not.

Tri wrote:Next you've put a Bright lance on the firedragons wave serpent. At best its going to be able to shoot once or twice ... 99% of the time you'd be better off keeping their WS at bare min. As the DA also have WS i should also point out that they should have something else Scatter lasers or EML

No. You need these Bright Lances for armor hunting and T4 EW Wanna-Be popping.

Any Eldar play knows that EML are better because they are multi functional. If I want to hunt AV13+ that’s what the dragons are for.

Tri wrote:Fireprism ... why the hell are you taking anything on this? Take Prisms bare.

Durability, and if it gets stunned (can and will hapen), it can STILL MOVE to reposition. It's called tactics. There's a whole thread on this stuff somewhere...

May be just may be at 2000pts I would take stones ... but holofields are pushing it. There’s just so many other things that should be taken first

Tri wrote:I'd slaught this with all my armies... heck If i had them Tau and Necrons could do it as well. When building an eldar list you start by filling in your heavy supports once thats done Elites ...

Useless argument is in relation to this thread. Nice try, thanks for playing.

How so I build all comers armies ... sure if I know what I’m facing i can tailor them to be perfect counters but where is the challenge in that? Your seer army will fail vs. any balanced army that knows how to deal with it. Kill the Farseer then grind away the warlock without the trouble some reroll.

I am an Eldar player. I’ve been playing with them since their last codex and I miss 4th. Back then we could walkover people in combat fire are defensive str6 weapons and generally out manoeuvre everyone. Now we can’t: don’t get me wrong we’ve still got some damn fine units but you need to use them right.

Spending over a third on one unit is not doing it right. Especially when that unit has a glaring weakness, the farseer. He has no eternal warrior, he is only T3[4], he has only 3 wounds. Sure he can reroll his saves… as a nid play just aim every thing at him who cares if it’s a 3+ with a reroll terminators fail their 2+ all the time.

Welcome to Seer Council opposite day

Seer Council are 45 points each & T4, but they have a 75% invo while fortune is up.

It takes 4 Railgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council.

Chance per railgun hit 5/6 wound 1/4 kill=5/24 hits kill a Seer Council

It takes 4 boltgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council

Chance per boltgun hit 1/2 wound 1/4 kill=1/8 aka 3/24 hits kill a seer council, but with rapid fire 6/24 rapid fire shots kill a seer council.

Against Seer council a single tac marine outguns a single Tau Broadside

Like I said when fighting seer council it's opposite day.

In the case of tyranids the humble gaunt outguns hive guard. High str, High AP, and power weapons have no real bonus against seer council. All that really matters is the volume of shots, so units like gaunts, warriors with devourers, and raveners with spinefists are the ideal anti seer council units ie the least competitive units when fighting mechanized MEQ.

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:You will fail to roll a 7 or below on 2d6 42% of the time. At this point you no longer have an argument, you're simply being pedantic.

and you didn't pick that up from the previous replies in this thread?
I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.

Eldar 2008 FAQ wrote:Q: How do the Runes of Witnessing work when facing a Hive Tyrant with Shadow in the Warp?
A. The Runes neutralize the effect of Shadow in the Warp for that Farseer, so that Farseer will take Psychic tests using 2d6, as normal.

However the FAQ is referencing the old 2004 Tyranid codex which has a completely different Shadow in the Warp from the current codex. Personally I'd play it the way the Eldar FAQ handles Runes of Witnessing and Runes of Warding at the same time, with Perils on double 1s and 6s instead of 12+, since the new SitW has similar wording to Runes of Warding, except for what causes Perils.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Proceed as follows: when the Farseer attempts to use a psychic power, roll 3d6. Consider the two lowest results for the purpose of passing the test (ignoring the highest result). Then, if the total of the 3d6 was 12 or more, the Farseer suffers a Perils in the Warp attack (do not do this if the Farseer has already suffered such an attack because of the two lowest results being double 1 or double 6)

Seer Councils at anything below 1750 is hurting you and even at 1750 it's pushing it. I've tried making lists with it, but ultimately, even at 2000 points, there's just so much you can put in instead of it.

But the fact of the matter is, tarpit the Council for a turn or two and attack the rest of the thinly spread army. At 2000 points, it's not as tough making the rest of the army workable, but just imagine what you had put in your army for those 650 points that the Eldar player spent on a single unit. Those 650 points are enough for 3 Wave Serpents with bladestorming Dire Avengers inside, among other things. I don't know about you, but if I was a Tyranid player, I'd fear that a lot more than the Council.

First, I want to thank each one of you guys with the helpful tips playing against seer council.

Secondly, I did forget to post the list I was using. I have access to every models listed in the tyranid codex, so I'm very open minded making changes to the list if needed.

HQ

Prime - sword/whip, toxin sac

Elites

2x hive guards
2x hive guards
2x zoans + pod

Troops

Tervigon - catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines
Tervigon - catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines
10x termagants
11x termagants
5x stealers
5x stealers

Heavy

Trygon
Trygon

After reading all the posts + studying and mapping out the game play, the list I was playing is kind of a fail. I don't have enough fast units, on top of that, none of them are durable to lock them in combat.

Sure, I have FNP, but playing against eldar's map wide anti psychic. It's not reliable enough to pull it off while my models are in the right position (I roll very poorly). As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.

As some of you guys suggested, shadow of the warp helps against them. Do their powers cancel out each other, so the farseer will be rolling only 2 dices for psychic test?

some of you suggested using gargoyles to tar-pit them. Since they have the same speed as the councils, I will need some more practices eye-balling the distant and dance with them on the board. On top of that, I need to count the flamer distant. Will need a lot of practices to get it right for me.

I ran 3 units of 4 Shrikes with sword/whip + toxin sacs.

The list was like this

HQ
Tervigon - catalyst

Elites
2x hive guards
2x hive guards
2x hive guards

Troops
Tervigon - catalyst
10x termagants
5x stealers
5x stealers

Fast
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs
4x shrikes - sword/whip, toxin sacs

He's a skillful player. He would run away from of shrikes the whole game so he have the time to soften them with shots, and then finish them off with whatever in range. Perhaps I should DS the shrikes instead of running them up? Then I would have no guarantee they will be in FNP range. Not that I can get FNP off. So much perils. curse my dice rolling skill.


Deathleaper sounds like a start. I took it out since so much mech players even in the 1,500 pts bracket. He'll get some table time this weekend, hopefully it brings death to the seer.

Since we play the standard missions in the rule book, maybe MSU is not a good idea?

I will also try a 5 or 6 warriors brood with prime idea this weekend. I will surely report back. In the main time, I'll look forward to ideas.

I'm not letting him go until I beat him.

Thank you very much

New Player wrote:
As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.

You are aware of this rule?

"When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characte5rs that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible." (49)

So when you get the charge, or in a pile-in, the farseer has to move first.

It is possible for a skilled player to follow this rule and still keep an independent character like a farseer out of base contact with the big bugs a lot of the time. But if he's cheating you by just refusing to move the farseer first, then you can call him on it.

Trygon primes. WHen they show up, they provide anti-psychic support, are synapse, and put out 12 strength 5 shots. In hth they are more than a match, especially since all the wounds are strength 6. If the farseer dies from instant death, fortune goes away.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

New Player wrote:
As you can see, I do have units that can instant death that farseer, but like many of you guys stated, he does not pull the farseer B2B against my trygon or tervigon. He would bubble wrap it so the farseer stays out of the fight against instant death models. Even I do get the charge, his farseer is nowhere at the front line.

You are aware of this rule?

"When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characte5rs that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible." (49)

So when you get the charge, or in a pile-in, the farseer has to move first.

It is possible for a skilled player to follow this rule and still keep an independent character like a farseer out of base contact with the big bugs a lot of the time. But if he's cheating you by just refusing to move the farseer first, then you can call him on it.

Good call on that one. That's another question I had on my mind. I remember reading about that rule before. However, let me know if he did this correctly.

He bubble wrap the farseer. So let say 3 warlocks are staying before the farseer; each warlock is spaced about 1 inch apart. When I assault, my trygon can only get in b2b with the warlocks. Now comes pile in, since the gap between the warlocks is not big enough to push the farseer's base to touch base with the Trygon, he just move the farseer to behind the warlocks. He stated that, models have to move in the shortest distant trying to make base contact, since the gap is not big enough, so the farseer stays behind. What do you think? I also have seen people move models jump over models to get in base contact during the pile in move.

No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.

First of, Shadow in the Warp will help against the inevitable fortune.

No, it doesn't.
If the Farseer has RoWit then both, RoWit and SitW cancel. See the Eldar FAQs.
My experience tells me that a Seer Council is unstoppable for horde armies. Too bad.

Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.

Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?

New Player wrote:

Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.

Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?

... no but he can go round. The only way that he can't is if he has models all the way round him with less room then his base between them. If they are set out in such a pattern then they are blast fodder. Try it your self place the models as he did and see if you can move the farseer round.

Tri wrote:

New Player wrote:

Tri wrote:No he's thinking of units moving through other units. The farseer and the warlocks are one unit and the farseer piles in first.

Ok, so the farseer piles in first. Let say the gaps between the warlocks are too small for the farseer to move through, does the farseer jump over to make base contact? or does the farseer just stay behind the warlocks?

... no but he can go round. The only way that he can't is if he has models all the way round him with less room then his base between them. If they are set out in such a pattern then they are blast fodder. Try it your self place the models as he did and see if you can move the farseer round.

Interesting tips, I'll surely try it today. Thank you.

this thread made me lol

@Dave: calm down now, we wouldn't want you to hurt someone again...
remember that last guy?
he's still in the hospital

@People that don't know the Eldar codex: RoWit negate SitW and roll 2d6 as normal (and even without them the ghosthelm negates perils on a 3+ (AND WARLOCKS DON'T NEED A PSYCHIC TEST))
it's a 3+/4++ save that's re-rollable not a 3++
and those crafty space elves that just wiped up your squad in the shooting phase can move 6" in the assault to prepare for the next turn thanks to their bikes

@People that don't know basic statistics and math skills
GO BACK TO SCHOOL!
and stop wishing that your dice will roll high just because you want them to prove a point
because in reality sometimes they roll low
it's a fact of life


anyways....
Noto rant over


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:I dont believe runes negate shadow in the warp either.

they do
standing in a transport does too

Wouldn't a double seer council be dangerously low on troops at 1,500 points?

Even a single council at 600 points plus 300 for a pair of farseers on bikes seems a bit rough at 1,500.

It just seems that if the seer council is going to eat up over half the eldar armies points maybe the best course of action would be to wipe out the other half of the eldar army 1st, especially his troops.

schadenfreude wrote:
It takes 4 boltgun wounds to drop a single Seer Council

Since we're talking about jetbikes, that's incorrect. It takes 9 boltgun wounds to kill a single Warlock on a Jetbike with a Fortuned save.