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legomojo wrote:I assume 15 missile launchers is referring too the long fang packs? Which is interesting... cheaper than Codex and larger in number than BA... is that really THAT special?

Now a whole SQUADE of 15 MS would be great! Haha... thats what I thought people were saying...

well I dont know about 15. I'm not a wolf player but that sounds about right. you can get it from the long fangs, wolf guard and typhoon land speeders. there might be others I dont have the book in front of me....


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Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the strengths of the space wolf codex are your ability to spam krak missiles and your thunderwolves. thunderwolves are just super strong. fast killy tough. total package. grey hunters are ok but imo not the meat and potatoes of the army. as a csm player I'm used to having an army full of grey hunter equivalents and I just dont find them that impressive.

LOLwut?

marines with a few extra attacks. woopy doo.

imo i'd rate them sw, sm, ba. wolves are nasty t-wolves and fangs are sweet. marines have cheaper support than ba but miss out on the assaulty punch mostly. ba fast mech is enticing ... fnp,fc, also great ... just find it lackluster.

i am biased though, played all 3 but only kept my salamanderS

fnp + fc + jump packs is what makes it work.
not having to use a transport at all is better than having a fast transport. jump pack guys cant get their ride shot out from under them bc they dont have one. and descent of angels, a truly awesome power, is free. so much goodness.

Well, my Long Fangs tend to get fielded with 2-3 heavy bolters and the rest missile launchers... I usually detail out a WG in Termi armor w/ cyclone and/or a Rune Priest with "Living Lightening" just to throw out more shots... The missiles are nice, but I see some horde type things here, and the HB's work out well for the 20 point guys...

With the Wolves, you have the best basic Infantry in the game. Some of the things like the "Wolf Cav" are stupidly overpowered (for now, I suspect the DE will be the scissors to their paper in the rock/paper/scissors game), but by and large, like regular Marines, but better... If you play a bit more aggressively I think, or at least that's how it works out for me and my ancient RT era Wolves...

pchappel wrote:Well, my Long Fangs tend to get fielded with 2-3 heavy bolters and the rest missile launchers... I usually detail out a WG in Termi armor w/ cyclone and/or a Rune Priest with "Living Lightening" just to throw out more shots... The missiles are nice, but I see some horde type things here, and the HB's work out well for the 20 point guys...

With the Wolves, you have the best basic Infantry in the game. Some of the things like the "Wolf Cav" are stupidly overpowered (for now, I suspect the DE will be the scissors to their paper in the rock/paper/scissors game), but by and large, like regular Marines, but better... If you play a bit more aggressively I think, or at least that's how it works out for me and my ancient RT era Wolves...

I'm not so sure... it seems the the BA have Assault Troops in their... troops... which seems extremely enticing. Where the Blood Claws seem... nice... but just like... missing the Jump packs.

And I'm a bit sad none of the SW troops can carry missile launchers... thats where I like em!

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:I assume 15 missile launchers is referring too the long fang packs? Which is interesting... cheaper than Codex and larger in number than BA... is that really THAT special?

Now a whole SQUADE of 15 MS would be great! Haha... thats what I thought people were saying...

well I dont know about 15. I'm not a wolf player but that sounds about right. you can get it from the long fangs, wolf guard and typhoon land speeders. there might be others I dont have the book in front of me....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the strengths of the space wolf codex are your ability to spam krak missiles and your thunderwolves. thunderwolves are just super strong. fast killy tough. total package. grey hunters are ok but imo not the meat and potatoes of the army. as a csm player I'm used to having an army full of grey hunter equivalents and I just dont find them that impressive.

LOLwut?

marines with a few extra attacks. woopy doo.

You mean the marines with counterattack, cheaper plasma weapons, access to a second weapon for free for a 10-man squad TSKNF and more up-to-date miniatures?


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Unholy_Martyr wrote:
So, it seems like SW are 00agent cheats... and Blood Angels are fast and simple...

If anything, it's the opposite. Whereas SW can be nasty if used right, BA are just ridiculous. They are almost tailored towards being brutally hard to stop.

You mean the marines with counterattack, cheaper plasma weapons, access to a second weapon for free for a 10-man squad TSKNF and more up-to-date miniatures?

you have 1 more non-power weapon non-rending non-high strength non-anything-good normal attack per guy. you'll roll 10 more dice and maybe kill 1 more meq. so what.
you have the option to waste 15 points on a plasma pistol if you want to do it. who cares.
any squad can get another power or special weapon by attaching an IC.
space wolf players get too hyped up about their hunters. at the end of the day they're nothing but slightly-less-crappy tacticals.
AF

I play C:SM, along with the ability to play C:BA due to my huge amount of Assault troops I own.

I honestly like Codex SM a lot more. The lack of total cheese really means that people can't call you out for "Hopping on the Bandwagon". Furthermore,the Blood Angels have very limited limited ranged ability, aside from Devastators, it is hard to keep objectives unless you put it right out in the middle of the board. That leads it to sometimes be contested since your assaulting over there.

Codex Space Marine allows you to play a bit of everything, with their vast amount of special characters. You can make an Honor Guard focused one with Macaragge, a Bike army with Khan, a super fast scout/assault strike force with Shrike, to even a devastating tough army with Lysander! All of this makes for a very balanced army that can be deadly in any circumstance if you play it right.

Space Wolves just seem dumb to me, savage space marines that run around with huge canines and claws. It just doesn't appeal to me, but thats my opinion. I played a person with a space wolves army in a tournament, and it just isn't fun facing them. Again, this was all in my opinion.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
space wolf players get too hyped up about their hunters. at the end of the day they're nothing but slightly-less-crappy tacticals.
AF

That, and also arguably the best Troops in the game. Certainly the best PA ones.

Incidentally, I'll always take killing one more guy than I would have otherwise over...well, not killing one more guy. That's just me.


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legomojo wrote:
I'm not so sure... it seems the the BA have Assault Troops in their... troops... which seems extremely enticing. Where the Blood Claws seem... nice... but just like... missing the Jump packs.

And I'm a bit sad none of the SW troops can carry missile launchers... thats where I like em!

Assault Marines as troops is great - as long as you've got Sanguinary Priests to go with them. That's what gives Blood Angels their assault edge. Without those SPs, they're just normal Assault Marines, and normal Assault Marines are really only good for beating up on non-MEQs.

If you're looking for a pure assault army, Blood Angels are unequivocally the way to go. Blood Claws aren't what you should be looking at in the Space Wolf book. Throw fifteen of them in a Land Raider Crusader with a priest, and they'll do some damage, sure, but TWC are overall a better assault unit. Grey Hunters aren't slouches in CC, however; Counter Charge and their wargear give them the ability to at least hang with a lot of assault troops, and if you throw in a Standard and MotW, you're looking at some deceptively good close combat punch - which can also shoot just as well as standard Tacticals. That's what Space Wolves are, a close-range army that can hang in assault.

Either way you go on the issue, the guys who want to accuse you of hopping on the band wagon will have enough ammo to do so, so I wouldn't worry about that.

best troops in a game full of gakky troops. whatever. plague marines and berserkers are both better troop choices anyway.

Go BA, but please pick a successor chapter instead of regular BA.

:-) Should have mentioned I haven't actually used Blood Claws, the Hunters are just better for how I play it at least... I tend to use a 5 man pack fully loaded out with free flamer, plasma pistol, Mark of the Wolfen, Power fist/weapon in a Razorback (Usually TLAC or TLLC) and attach a Wolf Guard...

For my BA, the Assault Troops are nice, with the Priest, but they really don't supply the bulk of the hitting power in my FT army. The Vanguard Vets assaulting out of the deep strike, the DC Dreads with the Talons, etc...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:I assume 15 missile launchers is referring too the long fang packs? Which is interesting... cheaper than Codex and larger in number than BA... is that really THAT special?

Now a whole SQUADE of 15 MS would be great! Haha... thats what I thought people were saying...

well I dont know about 15. I'm not a wolf player but that sounds about right. you can get it from the long fangs, wolf guard and typhoon land speeders. there might be others I dont have the book in front of me....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the strengths of the space wolf codex are your ability to spam krak missiles and your thunderwolves. thunderwolves are just super strong. fast killy tough. total package. grey hunters are ok but imo not the meat and potatoes of the army. as a csm player I'm used to having an army full of grey hunter equivalents and I just dont find them that impressive.

LOLwut?

marines with a few extra attacks. woopy doo.

Counterattack. ATSKNF. Grey hunters are not for assaulting. They are for shooting. I rapid fire you, you assault me, I countercharge. I can kit them out with a wolfguard to be better at assaults, flexibility.

What makes them one of the best is their cost effectivenss. But like you said, best troops when all other troops are gak. Then again I'm thankful we have one of the best troops.

Nifty tricks for Space Wolves:

1) Counter-Attack...already mentioned

2) Long Fangs can split fire...that's right, 1 unit of 5 Missile Launchers can target 2 units with their missiles.

3) Independent Characters that make most special characters cry at night...even Mephiston.

4) Stupid amounts of flexibility with wargear, vehicles, spam, non-spam...you name it we can pretty much play it.

5) Characterful units...we have units that when they die earn us kill points that have Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior...and they start at 20 points.

I could go on...but that's just why I like them...not because they're super awesome and auto win...but because I have a creative mind which is stifled by the monotony by Codex Marines and I have an absolute disgust for extra pretty space vampires...

To stay on topic tho, BA are more OP than SW. They have the killiest, most maneuverable troops in the game (one of the best). Sanguinary priests and Unleash Rage/ Shield Libbies are force multipliers for ASMs.... Then theres the Sanguinor.

The problem with BA is that all their cool toys are costed higher to offset. Expect lower model counts. But their potency is EXTREMELY INCREDIBLE. BA is played as a deadly scalpel, make mistakes, you lose.

SW is all about brute force. Everything is so fething cheap, you can literally fill the board with units. This makes them easier to play, more forgiving. Perhaps why SW armies tend to dominate tournament scenes is bec of its forgiving nature.

The fact of the matter is you have to play an army that appeals to you, if you're a surgeon, play Blood Angles. If you're extra creative but don't like being trashed because you make a mistake, play Space Wolves. If you like a challenge and have a combination of the afoementioned skills than you should probably go with Codex marines as they are more of a challenge and can give you more of what you want.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:The fact of the matter is you have to play an army that appeals to you, if you're a surgeon, play Blood Angles. If you're extra creative but don't like being trashed because you make a mistake, play Space Wolves. If you like a challenge and have a combination of the afoementioned skills than you should probably go with Codex marines as they are more of a challenge and can give you more of what you want.

If you like being trashed because you make a mistake play Deathwing.

Like I said before, Codex Marines all the way. It gives you more possibilities than both SW and BA.

Shouldn't you go with the army you like the most?

I suggest Codex Space Marines because they have a bit of everything you would like... if you want more assault just use your models as BA, and use their Codex.

SW are quite OP in my opinion, but they are very cool nonetheless.

Dude just make up your mind already. Or do as space goats do. :=)

I find BA to be a lackluster codex that attempts to do too much with out actually excelling at doing anything really well. The alpha striking Dante list is pretty easily countered and I have yet to see it win a tournament. In fact I have yet to see BA place higher than 3rd in tournaments where I play. The top spot in the last 5 tournaments at my FLGS were

Space Wolves 3 times
Vanilla Marines once
Imperial Guard once

I think the strongest of the 3 codices in terms of putting boots on the ground and being versatile yet straight forward are the Space Wolves.

Of the three codices the most user friendly for a newer player, or new to MEQ, would be the Space Wolves followed by Codex Marines. The Blood Angels codex has a few too many intricacies in it to be truly "new user" friendly.

I wrote a short article on the subject of choosing an army to play that you can find here it touches on the three Marine codices.

Wait a second! I am pretty sure that Orks won your last RTT.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
As for the VERY narrow point of view comment... what can I say... This game is based on math not opinions. In math there is one and only one correct set of answers to a problem. being broad or narrow doesn't have anything to do with anything.
AF

Correction. The game is based on probability. Whilst probability is a form of maths, it allows for multiple answers/results.
Being Broad or narrow has a lot to do with things when it comes to deciding from a wide choice of options.

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the strengths of the space wolf codex are your ability to spam krak missiles and your thunderwolves. thunderwolves are just super strong. fast killy tough. total package. grey hunters are ok but imo not the meat and potatoes of the army. as a csm player I'm used to having an army full of grey hunter equivalents and I just dont find them that impressive.

LOLwut?

I can't believe I'm saying, but I've gotta agree with Seaward.

Destrado wrote:Shouldn't you go with the army you like the most?

Thread/win.

As Destrado said, don't worry about which one is most competitive, go for the one you like the most. When it comes to competitiveness, an army is what you make it. Whilst some armies have a head-start due to rules, ultimately it's the general that matters.
You're going to be spending a lot of money and time and effort on this army so you should go for the one you like the most, each of them can be competitive and winnable, only one of them can be your favourite.
They are all MeQ, they are all 5th edition, so they can all manage in a competitive environment and are all along fairly similar lines. Ultimately I strongly believe you should go for the one you prefer.


Judging from your responses etc. I get the impression BA's is the army for you. They have the appearance, the in-your-face assault-style and plenty OTT enough for you to enjoy them (judging by your attraction to TWC) and on top of all this, there is a wide variety of builds you can go with and are a very, very competitive rulebook.

Just Dave wrote:
Correction. The game is based on probability. Whilst probability is a form of maths, it allows for multiple answers/results.
Being Broad or narrow has a lot to do with things when it comes to deciding from a wide choice of options.

Actually, not really. Probability dictates you take the option of getting the optimal choice that maximizes the probability of a certain event from happening. There is no multiple answer. If you have a choice between 40% chance and 45% chance of something happening, you take the one with a higher chance. Simple as that. Results, of course, will prove that in the long run the 45% chance option will yield... 45% chance.

He said answers, I said answers/results.

Basically, due to eliminating the mathematical element and it being probability, I still wrote answers (/results) to show the equivalent whilst maintaining there was no right/wrong answer, only probability. which can make no guarantees unless its 100%/1.0/1 over 1.

Darrian13 wrote:Wait a second! I am pretty sure that Orks won your last RTT.

AH! You're right (since it was you that one after all!) So for the last 6.

Orks once
IG once
Codex Marines once
Space Wolves 3 times

In that order from October back through May. Good catch Darrian.

Just Dave there's only one best way to optimize the results bc weapons have different attributes and costs.

How about you don't become a WAAC gamer and play Codex Marines. That way, you will learn how to win without cheese. Either that or play Space Wolves, because Space Wolves are the least 'pretty' of the three.

Just Dave wrote:
I can't believe I'm saying, but I've gotta agree with Seaward.

Wait, why is that a bad thing? 'Cause I was having fun in the thread about whether or not Space Wolves are intelligent?