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Melissia wrote:Marines get their sergeants as part of the cost of the squad.

Well, a single marine costs 16 points. A squad of 5 marines costs 90 points and one of them is a veteran.

5 x 16 = 80

So marines really pay ten points for their veterans. They just don't get the option NOT to pay.

And I think the extra points are better justified when you think about the fact that the +1 to the veteran's leadership applies to the entire squad, not just him. Granted, for marines with ATSKNF that hardly matters, but a lot of armies it does.

greenbay924 wrote:You could be like orks. We have to pay 10 points for an extra attack, extra wound, and weapon options. Totally a rip.

We ALSO have to pay 15 points if we want an extra attack for our warbosses. Totally not worth it.

Go die orks.

Tau pay 10p to have a squad leader who gets a point of leadership, access to the armoury, and plus one attack.

Bah, be happy that you even GET sergeants! Oh how my Templars would love an extra attack for the power fist, but no, we're stuck with one attack unless charging (inb4 holy relic).

Samus_aran115 wrote:I do like the way IG do it, where a infantry squad is fifty points. But those sergeants don't have an extra attack, which really makes them worthless

Yeah they do. Ig sarges have +1 attack and +1 ld over the boys they lead. Not bad for no points. They also have access to power weapons finally.

Polonius wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I do like the way IG do it, where a infantry squad is fifty points. But those sergeants don't have an extra attack, which really makes them worthless

Yeah they do. Ig sarges have +1 attack and +1 ld over the boys they lead. Not bad for no points. They also have access to power weapons finally.

Beaten to it on page one, sorry.

whocares wrote:So marines really pay ten points for their veterans.

And for free special/heavy weapons, which more than makes up for it. Just the free ML alone would cost ten to fifteen points.

Monster Rain wrote:Khorne: Would you betray the God Emperor of Mankind?

Space Marine: No.

Khorne: Would you betray the God Emperor of Mankind... for a Klondike Bar?

Space Marine: SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Sigg'd

Melissia wrote:

whocares wrote:So marines really pay ten points for their veterans.

And for free special/heavy weapons, which more than makes up for it. Just the free ML alone would cost ten to fifteen points.

Yes, marines do get free missile launchers. Which is awesome.

But they don't get free sergeants. Which is the topic. If you want to look at it that way, chaos gets a free extra attack in close combat on all of their guys, which is also worth 10 to 15 points.

You can get five marines and have to pay for the sergeant, without ever getting a missile launcher. You can't do it the other way around. That ten points is for the sergeant.

It's not really free. You have to give up a Boltgun to get it, although you do get to keep your Bolt Pistol, so the Missile Launcher goon can still fire on the move (suck it, Long Fangs).

Speaking of bonus attacks, you know who has the same number of attacks? A Chaos Lord of Khorne with a Jump Pack and a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch with a Disc of Tzeentch. The Lord of Tzeentch pays an extra 15 points for Iv+1, which is totally worth it. Also the Daemon Weapon is more reliable.

Never confuse "free" with "at no additional cost."

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of bonus attacks, you know who has the same number of attacks? A Chaos Lord of Khorne with a Jump Pack and a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch with a Disc of Tzeentch. The Lord of Tzeentch pays an extra 15 points for Iv+1, which is totally worth it. Also the Daemon Weapon is more reliable.

Huh, I never noticed that. That's awesome.

Oh how I love paying 15 extra points for +1 attack and +1 ld with my CSM, then to find the need to toss in a PF or whatnot as well, only to add in a greater demon that always, always shows up when the only thing he can possess is either my hq or a pimp-ed out aspiring champion. Friggin awesome...

juraigamer wrote:Oh how I love paying 15 extra points for +1 attack and +1 ld with my CSM, then to find the need to toss in a PF or whatnot as well, only to add in a greater demon that always, always shows up when the only thing he can possess is either my hq or a pimp-ed out aspiring champion. Friggin awesome...

Yeah, I always took a naked aspiring champion just for that. Even modeled him on his knees with a horn splitting his head in two. I found that it helped my reserve rolls.

whocares wrote:But they don't get free sergeants

Uhm, yes they do.

Those ten points?

They also cover the five points for special weapons, and ten-ish points for heavy weapons.

That's already fifteen points. In any other edition the veteran upgrade would be usually fifteen points ontop of that. So you're actually twenty points cheaper than the tactical squad should be as you get a total of thirty points of upgrades for a mere ten.

Melissia wrote:

whocares wrote:But they don't get free sergeants

Uhm, yes they do.

Those ten points?

They also cover the five points for special weapons, and ten-ish points for heavy weapons.

That's already fifteen points. In any other edition the veteran upgrade would be usually fifteen points ontop of that. So you're actually twenty points cheaper than the tactical squad should be as you get a total of thirty points of upgrades for a mere ten.

Which you only get when you buy a full ten man squad.

The sergeant is always there, as is the ten points extra, no matter what you do with your squad. Those ten points are not for the special weapons, as you pay them even when you don't get the special weapons.

And if we're comparing it to past editions (which I don't think we should because...this isn't a previous edition), marines went up a point per model as well.

whocares wrote:

Melissia wrote:

whocares wrote:But they don't get free sergeants

Uhm, yes they do.

Those ten points?

They also cover the five points for special weapons, and ten-ish points for heavy weapons.

That's already fifteen points. In any other edition the veteran upgrade would be usually fifteen points ontop of that. So you're actually twenty points cheaper than the tactical squad should be as you get a total of thirty points of upgrades for a mere ten.

Which you only get when you buy a full ten man squad.

Rats. I was going to say that.

Marines increased by one point, yes, but they also gained four points of wargear per model (1 for frags, 1 for bolt pistols, and 2 for kraks), AND the free special.heavy weapon, for said cost, along with more special rules to their benefit.

Well, to be fair, the grenades aren't worth those points. Nobody ever paid for them, and giving Marines bolt pistols only gives them back what all models with rapid fire weapons had in 3rd edition.

I would say rather that you're paying for a special and heavy, and that marines simply get more kit now.

Polonius wrote:Well, to be fair, the grenades aren't worth those points. Nobody ever paid for them, and giving Marines bolt pistols only gives them back what all models with rapid fire weapons had in 3rd edition.

I would say rather that you're paying for a special and heavy, and that marines simply get more kit now.

Not to mention, a better comparison isn't to an old version of their codex, as that is never played with and was written for a different rules set, but to another modern codex. Chaos have "free" grenades too.

And the point still stands, you pay that ten points even when you don't get the heavy or special weapon.

Which just means that the player isn't utilizing their free options, no that it isn't free.

Melissia wrote:Which just means that the player isn't utilizing their free options, no that it isn't free.

Unless you take a 10 man squad, there are no free options.

Marines used to cost 15 points per model, their bump up to 16 points per model take in consideration their reduced cost for special, heavy, grenades, and sarge upgrades. (give or take a few points, like said above, who paid for grenades?)

They do probably get more for their points than CSM cult troops, or even vanilla CSMs, but that is more of a issue with how bad the CSM book is. The basic tac marine is still not the greatest buy in the book. Its cost to useful gun ratio is bad, and you are pretty much forced into paying for them since they are the only troop choice other than scouts (while decent, can't be completely relied upon).

Stop complaining.

Start a Tau Army.

Buy Space Pope.

You'll never look back.