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nosferatu1001 wrote:Mukkin about - no, they had 6 years. Do you think they started redoing the codex as soon as the ink was dry on the 2nd edition of the 3rd ed codex? It was 6 years ago that they started - and from what they were saying it took a long time for Jes and co to convince the people who control the purse strings.

The old policy was: only release what models are available, and cut anything extra from the codex. Result: less diverse codexes, 5yrs between model releases.

New policy: Put something exciting into the codex KNOWING you WILL release models eventually. Result: more interesting codexes, people can convert while waiting, 1 - 2 yrs between model releases (or less)

Which is a better policy for satisfying more people? The first one isnt, thats for sure. GW know this having tried it....

Filbert - No, I never actually said that. If you'd actually read my posts (sigh) you would have seen what I had written, which is that releasing 15 model sets at once is to paraphrase myself, a DUMB idea for a company. You have yet to refute the reasoning (and some actual knowledge on my part) behind this, and you accuse me of arguing for the sake?

I am not privy to all of it, just enough of it. No, I wont say who or where. Sorry, not interested in proving anythingt o random internet person no 215765.

I didnt say you couldnt complain, but the tone is most definitely whining. You also chose not to engage with any points (just wave hands dismissal, yay worthwhile posting) after getting key facts wrong earlier on which gutted the core out of your argument.

Fact: the models WILL be released. They WILL be gorgeous (no, not seen them - but seriously any doubts about them have gone fgrom my mind on this first wave alone. Hell, just Lelith was enough to remind me of Jes minor god hood for modelling) and the vast majority will be out in 6 months time. Thats called

Phased
Releases

Its a common concept in marketing, and a succesful way of marketing an impulse buy product like the stuff GW makes.

The reason why I haven't addressed your specific marketing points is that, unlike 99.9% of people on here, I don't claim to be a sales expert just becuase I disagree with what GW have done. However, I do reserve the right to complain when it annoys me. And if you aren't going to name your sources or references or experience then that makes you no better than every other poster who claims to have 'expert' knowledge whenever GW sales strategies are discussed and it makes your opinion no more or less valid than anyone else.

Scott-S6 wrote:

filbert wrote:You are entitled to your opinion of course but we are still waiting on models from GW for some Tyranid and BA units and that's a year or two years down the road now? I think that disabuses the notion that GW do want to produce the models.

The only model that BA are lacking is the stormraven - one model from the whole codex. And the pics have already leaked of the official model.

Nid's are currently missing three models (excluding special characters).

The BA comparison isn't really a fair one. BA have what, like five unique units in their codex besides SCs? I count sang guard, death company, baal pred, stormraven, and maybe furioso dread? The stormraven and furioso don't have models, but everything else in the codex existed before the newer one was even released. What I'm saying is, the model range was mostly in existence before the book came out. As opposed to the DE/tyranid units which are all new and don't have several previous books supporting them. If you want to complain about the unfair tendency of GW to lean towards producing SM books and models, then that's another argument altogether

Just to chuck this out there - if this is a deliberate marketing strategy by GW then it seems to be one that has crept in recently. I didn't buy in immediately at the time so my memory fails me but I seem to remember that the Necron and Tau codices were released along with all the supporting models, were they not? And they were completely new model lines (I think there were some early RT era Necrons but that's about it).

All I am saying is that there needn't be a trade off between codex quality and release of models - and if there is then it is a deliberate choke point that GW are creating.

Necron - 3rd ed. Tau - 3rd ed (then Empire in 4th ed)

It has been a long time between them and now.

There was a deliberate change, referenced in WD, between the old style (only put into the codex the models you can produce) and the current style.

The current style pleases more people, and allows them to extend the "ooh shiny" factor.

Hand wave dismissals - fair enough. I know my facts, which is all that matters.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Necron - 3rd ed. Tau - 3rd ed (then Empire in 4th ed)

It has been a long time between them and now.

There was a deliberate change, referenced in WD, between the old style (only put into the codex the models you can produce) and the current style.

The current style pleases more people, and allows them to extend the "ooh shiny" factor.

Hand wave dismissals - fair enough. I know my facts, which is all that matters.

I fail to see how asking for references and sources to back up claims is a 'hand wave dismissal'. As it stands, you are no better than anyone else who claims to understand the inner workings of GW, nor any better than every other internet hero who claims to have 'insider knowledge' but never actually cites anything. I can hardly give credence to your opinion over anyone else's just because you say you know better than everyone else. That's pretty much the default view on Dakka.

In your opinion. WHich I have already said I dont value too highly, not enough to break trust with people I actually know - thats for sure.

The point being you didnt even *attempt* to discuss. Not at all. Just carried on with the same under informed viewpoint. Which you're entitled to, doesnt mean anyone will listen or see it as much more than whining.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In your opinion. WHich I have already said I dont value too highly, not enough to break trust with people I actually know - thats for sure.

The point being you didnt even *attempt* to discuss. Not at all. Just carried on with the same under informed viewpoint. Which you're entitled to, doesnt mean anyone will listen or see it as much more than whining.

Discuss what? You said that you have information that it is a marketing ploy by GW - I haven't refuted that; it may well be. What I have said is that I dislike it for reasons I have already listed. You then go on to say that you feel that the ~ 6 years or so that you say Jes Goodwin has been working on the new range is not enough time to have redone the codex and completed all the models. I commented to the fact that I felt this was wrong and that 6 years was plenty of time to have worked the sculpts and gone into production. I then asked why Necron and Tau were released completely and not in wave and you answered in response that this is a new GW phenomena as revealed in WD; I can neither confirm nor deny this - I haven't read GW constantly since Tau / Necron were released. What I would say is that it does seem to be a new phenomena given that Tyranids and BA were released partially complete. However, the very fact that GW could release a more or less entirely new race complete with all the units in the codex seems to suggest that it is possible for it to be done, no? Again, I said earlier that there doesn't need to be a trade off between codex interest and model range - the two are not mutually exclusive.

The only other thing of note is that you continually claim to be in the know or have insider information and that you refuse to explain how or why you know such things and why I or anyone else should place more stock in your opinions. Just because you say 'well I know my sources and I know I'm right' does not make everything you say gospel - in fact, it means you are just the same as everyone else who has commented in this thread. You have an opinion and have voiced it as such but don't expect everyone to suddenly bow to your superior wisdom just because you claim to know something.

Finally, no-one is forcing you to read the thread or engage with it. If you don't like the sentiment, fine. You have said your piece; if you don't like what is being said then move on. Calling someone's opinion under-informed smacks of arrogance, especially when you have offered no evidence to the contrary, only your own opinion.

Gentlemen, please consider that there is no reason to have anything but a friendly debate and that the implication of a personal attack is no more acceptable than an explicit one. Keep the tone respectful and everyone involved will benefit more from the conversation.

In events that the model is not available at codex launch , it would be nice if they included what the appropriate dimensions or base size would be. Like the storm raven causes all kinds of ruckus because nobody knows what manner to count their weapons as for firing
arcs, or what size will the thunderwolf bases be

Tyranids do not have GW models for the Doom, Harpy, Mycetic Spore, Parasite, Tervigon, Tyranid Prime and Tyrannofex. In addition there are models that do not have certain necessary biomorphs from GW to make them: Shrikes, Swarmlord, Flying Hive Tyrant, Flying Rippers, Ymgarl stealers, Warriors with boneswords and lash whips.

I don't know how many models that DE are missing (that aren't scheduled for a second or third wave release (where is the nid second wave?)), but the nids are missing a lot of stuff that requires conversion or purchasing bits from other companies.

filbert wrote:What I would say is that it does seem to be a new phenomena given that Tyranids and BA were released partially complete.

What about the other 5th ed codexes?
Wolves - thunder wolves
Imperial Guard - vendetta, colossus (lots more if you don't count forgeworld)
Marines - Storm, Ironclad

Scott-S6 wrote:

filbert wrote:What I would say is that it does seem to be a new phenomena given that Tyranids and BA were released partially complete.

What about the other 5th ed codexes?
Wolves - thunder wolves
Imperial Guard - vendetta, colossus (lots more if you don't count forgeworld)
Marines - Storm, Ironclad

Very true - I hadn't considered those. But nevertheless, we seem to be able to draw a distinct line between a time when GW didn't release incomplete codices to a time when the phenomena started to creep in.

So for the codices that Scott has listed we are looking at 1 or 2 units max missing, Tyranids a little more missing, and BA not so much (probably because they are a marine list and they are the most well catered for, models wise).

As has been discussed, if it is a definitive marketing ploy by GW to draw out interest and sales over a longer span of time, then I personally feel that they have perhaps gone too far to the right of the spectrum this time.

That line is pretty much the start of 5th ed athough there were a couple of models missing for some of the 4th ed codexes (battlewagon, etc)

Tyranids have more missing but they also gained more completely new units - the tyrannofex, tervigon, harpy and trygon are all entirely new, not even based on existing models. They got the first of those (all three variants) on release day. Three models missing (other than special characters), really isn't too bad.

I disagree that they've gone to far - the value of the greatly increased number of codex options far outweighs the lack of a few models (especially when many of the missing models are available from forgeworld).

Not having new models doesn't actually create a problem for you - you don't have to use them. And if you do then you can convert or kitbash. I would always prefer to have an option without a model than to not have the option.

Go and look at some of the old codexes - I'm thinking Tau especially - there are so few units in there. Lets compare that codex with the new DE codex or the IG codex:
Tau:15 DE:22 IG:28

I fail to see the downside in increased choice.

Anyone else think that GW made the DE codex so big with tons of choices because they won't update the codex for another 12 years?

Ventus wrote:Tyranids do not have GW models for the ... Tyranid Prime

Seriously, people need to get over this. Verbatim quote from Codex Tyranids

Tyranid Primes are the very apex of the Tyranid Warrior strain, stronger and and more devious than even these formidable troops.

Primes are warriors. Grab some of those extra chitin plates you've likely got dozens of from various boxes, and armour up a Tyranid Warrior. Instant Prime, and exactly what it's meant to be - a tough Warrior.

Filbert - compare the number of units in Necrons (if you claim this codex has an interesting variety of units then....well, your opinion becomes more suspect) or Codex: Tau.

I never said they *couldnt* get an entire army out, just that previoulsy that meant CUTTING units. Now they dont cut the units, with the trade off that not all models are released at launch.

Which is, *objectively*, better: more choice or less choice? Answers on a postcard, single word needed.

I also never said 6 years was not enough time to have completed all the models - they have. What they DO have issues with is actually building up production levels to provide sufficient stock for release. You seem unaware of the realities of the mdoel business, especially high precision injection molded plastic model production, and are complaining from a position of inferior information. When corrected on this you ignore and hand wave it away as "6 years!!!!" yet again.

It is not arrogance to know something and correct people on it. Whether you choose to listen or not is your choice.

Would the ork codex have been improved if they'd removed the battlewagon?

I think that having a new codex and anticipating future models is better than having a (smaller) new codex and knowing that you won't be getting a new model for 4+ years.

What I haven't seen in any of these missing models threads is a decent reasoning for why the lack of model is a problem. (other than "I want it & I want it now")

ETA, if this is going to be the pattern for the future then I do think that they should be publishing suggested dimensions and base sizes on the website.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Filbert - compare the number of units in Necrons (if you claim this codex has an interesting variety of units then....well, your opinion becomes more suspect) or Codex: Tau.

I never said they *couldnt* get an entire army out, just that previoulsy that meant CUTTING units. Now they dont cut the units, with the trade off that not all models are released at launch.

Which is, *objectively*, better: more choice or less choice? Answers on a postcard, single word needed.

I also never said 6 years was not enough time to have completed all the models - they have. What they DO have issues with is actually building up production levels to provide sufficient stock for release. You seem unaware of the realities of the mdoel business, especially high precision injection molded plastic model production, and are complaining from a position of inferior information. When corrected on this you ignore and hand wave it away as "6 years!!!!" yet again.

It is not arrogance to know something and correct people on it. Whether you choose to listen or not is your choice.

Actually my father has spent ~ 30 years in the plastic dip moulding and injection moulding business so I am able to argue from a position of relative experience. And if you claim that GW cannot plan a run of production for new models because they are *that* busy and unable to either expand or find room for further runs, then quite frankly, I think that is dross. So it's not 'hand waving' as you seem intent on terming anything that disagrees with you. Your continued presence in this thread has amounted to 'ner ner, I know better than you; I'm right - you're wrong but I'm not going to tell you how or why I know because I don't reveal my sources'. How convenient.

I'm not saying that the Necron and Tau codices are better because they are complete nor do I claim Necron to be particularly interesting - but that's more as a consequence of codex and rule design rather than model production issues; the Necron codex is dull by the very nature of the codex not because the models determine it. If GW had made the Necron unit rules more interesting and flavoursome then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The point is that they managed to release both Tau and Necron with complete codices from release day 1. Yes, the codices aren't as varied as more 'modern' ones but I think some of this can be put down to the fact that these codices are older.

Again; I am not railing against more or less choice, I am simply stating that I do not think the two need to be compromised. I feel that GW have left too much out in this particular release when compared to other codices and perhaps could have balanced the need to wave release against the need to have a decent range of models available.


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Scott-S6 wrote:Would the ork codex have been improved if they'd removed the battlewagon?

I think that having a new codex and anticipating future models is better than having a (smaller) new codex and knowing that you won't be getting a new model for 4+ years.

What I haven't seen in any of these missing models threads is a decent reasoning for why the lack of model is a problem. (other than "I want it & I want it now")

ETA, if this is going to be the pattern for the future then I do think that they should be publishing suggested dimensions and base sizes on the website.

I would agree with this and would also add from personal experience that it was a real pain the arse having to scratch build Ork Battlewagons for ages before a kit was released. Some guidance does need to be given. It becomes more of an issue when the sheer number of units that need to be proxied or scratch built is increased as seen with DE. No, you don't have to use the new units but the point is it takes away an awful lot of choice if you stick only to the stuff that has models available.

filbert wrote:The point is that they managed to release both Tau and Necron with complete codices from release day 1. Yes, the codices aren't as varied as more 'modern' ones but I think some of this can be put down to the fact that these codices are older.

There were 11 units available for Necrons on launch day. (almost all of which were from the previous edition)
There were 15 for Tau (almost all of which were from the previous edition)

There were 14 units available for the DE on launch day. (almost all of which were new models)

I can't think of another codex launch that had 6 new plastic kits. Tau had 5 when they were created in 3rd. (is there a website somewhere with a list of release dates for all the models?)

The last two times we had completely new model ranges were Tau & Necrons (not the current codexes). Both had a dramatically smaller number of units - approx half of what the DE codex has.


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filbert wrote:I would agree with this and would also add from personal experience that it was a real pain the arse having to scratch build Ork Battlewagons for ages before a kit was released.

You mean, before a new kit was released?


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filbert wrote:No, you don't have to use the new units but the point is it takes away an awful lot of choice if you stick only to the stuff that has models available.

Even if you only use the units that there are models for you have 14 to choose from - more than the entire Necron codex and almost as many as the entire Tau codex.

Filbert. they ARE that busy, as their machines run at full tilt all hours. That many SM kits are sold....and your continued presence has been in making wildly inaccurate claims,

So necron would be more interesting if Necron warriors were more exciting rules wise? You would still only have one troops choice.

You have HALF the units in Tau and Necron than DE. They released 6 plastic kits, entirely new, on day 1 and have 14 units available, more than either older codex have in total. You have more variety in just the models that are released, which allow you to build a varied and full army, than the entire Tau army has. Yet you still complain, and expect 28 model kits to be released on day 1. Hyperbole abounds.

If you cant ssee how this will dilute sales then - well, you know the rest.

You have more choice available day 1, so by any objective measurement they havent compromised choice. Oh wait, objective.

Scott-S6 wrote:

filbert wrote:I would agree with this and would also add from personal experience that it was a real pain the arse having to scratch build Ork Battlewagons for ages before a kit was released.

You mean, before a new kit was released?.

There was an old Battlewagon kit? That's news to me. What was it, second edition?
Or are you referring to the FW kit? If so, I wouldn't count it, as it wasn't as easily accessible or cheap as the stuff in store.

The DE codex was in a conceptual stage for a while, and sculpting only started in 2007.

So I disagree with the often used notion that "they have had 12 whole years to do this or get that etc!".

It's more like Jess and Phil had to convince the higher ups to let them turn what realistically was a side project for Jess into a full time army remake.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:There was an old Battlewagon kit? That's news to me. What was it, second edition?

First edition.

filbert wrote:
And if you claim that GW cannot plan a run of production for new models because they are *that* busy and unable to either expand or find room for further runs, then quite frankly, I think that is dross.
...
I feel that GW have left too much out in this particular release when compared to other codices and perhaps could have balanced the need to wave release against the need to have a decent range of models available.

You claim to know the "business," but you fail to understand there are many reasons not to expand production or increasing shifts or finding room for further runs. While you may have some form of genetic knowledge from your father, I have first hand experience and I can tell you there are many reason why GW is satisfied with its level of production. GW releases as much now with each codex as they ever have. They have increased capacity and efficiency to allow for all the other releases and to produce the higher quantities of kits to supply global demand. That even though they built a larger factory/plant, that improved capacity was largely to allow for growth into Asia. I think people grossly overestimate GW's size.The fact is that GW's creative talent can outpace their production and that GW doesn't see a benefit of increasing the number of models on their shelves. That doesn't include the distribution and warehousing issues that can arise.

Your "feeling" is a very narrow minded one. What the DE have gotten is a very "decent range of models." The fact GW has included more units in the codex than what's immediately available is as much about longevity as it is about the "new." This is the end result of GW wanting everything in the codex and the option to release new models a time after its release. Initial release size isn't flexible so there isn't too much they can do about it. You can argue quantity is the issue but than you have to accept that means more things being left out of the codex all together. From a business side GW is trying to make their portfolio look better. Picture how its looks to potential investors to see 40 mini-product lines that spike and then trail off towards zero every 4-5 years cyclically. GW is trying to establish a more level volume of sale with in each product line and the only way to do that given the nature of GW's business are these waves of releases.

filbert wrote:
I would agree with this and would also add from personal experience that it was a real pain the arse having to scratch build Ork Battlewagons for ages before a kit was released. Some guidance does need to be given. It becomes more of an issue when the sheer number of units that need to be proxied or scratch built is increased as seen with DE. No, you don't have to use the new units but the point is it takes away an awful lot of choice if you stick only to the stuff that has models available.

I don't want to write and criticize the people who want everything available to them but a major part of the hobby has always been scratch building and conversions. GW I think has been motivated to allow more creativity and by not making everything immediately available that child of necessity is what they want to see. Good or bad, I wouldn't make a judgment call because I can see the benefits of both mindsets.

I think though that the real crux of the issue is this: "Some guidance does need to be given." If GW actually used WD or their website to produce articles that gave this guidance I think it would be enough to satisfy most people who are waiting and know that GW will eventually get back to releasing that missing model.

Agreed, and hell, it's especially emphasized for Orks. Making a battlewagon, a kan/dread, or a trukk has always been about "what do I want to use THIS time?"

aka_mythos wrote:I think people grossly overestimate GW's size.

Excellent point. Sales of transformers toys in 2007 was double GW's total turnover (including video game royalties). GW is really very niche.

How small is a niche?

GW talks big and tries to walk big but they aren't. They are a company with $150M annual revenue... in perspective Microsoft makes about 800 times that.

Scott-S6 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think people grossly overestimate GW's size.

Excellent point. Sales of transformers toys in 2007 was double GW's total turnover (including video game royalties). GW is really very niche.

This is a valid point. I think we are all guilty of overestimating GW, especially when they have made a rod for their own back as it were by their fairly high standards; we as customers naturally expect more than perhaps is warranted.

I am not naive enough to expect 20+ new kits for a codex launch and nor am I disputing that of course choice and selection is an excellent thing and the standard of codices recently is on an upward trajectory (standard of rules is perhaps another discussion) but that's not too say it isn't frustrating and annoying as a customer and a gamer to flick through the new codex, find lots of choice and then find one is considerably hampered by the absence of units. I just think that the release has been somewhat flawed. For example, most of the DE heavy choices are missing. If production run, sculpting time and costs are limited then would it not have made more sense to continue with say, the old warrior and wyche units and make new heavy support models? After all, the old range had been in place for quite some time. Instead we have a situation where the old stuff is replaced by new stuff and the new units are left blank and with very little artwork or guidance to give a clue as to how to proxy or scratch build. Maybe I am being naive but couldn't we have managed with the old models for a little bit longer? After all, we have put up with them for a long time now...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:How small is a niche?

Optimus Prime sells about the same as the entire WHFB range.


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filbert wrote:would it not have made more sense to continue with say, the old warrior and wyche units and make new heavy support models?

I think the awful-ness of the old models would have hampered the launch substantially. I suspect the complete scrapping of the old models was part of the deal to give DE a second chance.

filbert wrote:with very little artwork or guidance to give a clue as to how to proxy or scratch build.

Absolutely. We don't even have a sketch of the voidraven, let alone some dimensions.