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So, I guess this thread can be added to the already crushing weight of new DE threads mushrooming across the forums but I thought to make this thread purely in an effort to get some (albeit fairly minor) annoyances off my chest. I have an old DE army that has been rarely used latterly and stowed away. I bought the new codex yesterday and had a flick through to see what could be kept/what needed to be added to/what needed to go. The main gripe I have is the fact that a significant portion of the codex simply has no model range whatsoever. We saw this in part when the BA codex was released; the Storm Raven for example, appeared from nowhere and has yet to really be fleshed out - I certainly haven't seen one, bar a few home made jobs and certainly nothing 'official' from GW. If we were to wind the clock back 10-15 years, GW would have made and presented something (probably in WD) even if it were scratch built. At least it gave gamers the chance to see something tangible rather than a statline and a bit of artwork. Just seems to me to be a cop-out on GW's part; present the rules and then leave it to the customer to figure out how to build the damn thing.

Don't get me wrong, I have no opposition to scratch builds but we seem to see it more and more nowadays. Come to think of it, the Tyranid codex had a bunch of models with no mini line available either.

Anyway, flicking to the back of the book to the photos of the models in action, as it were, it struck me how little has actually been released. Basically the shots were - warriors, wyches, raiders with a sprinkling of new characters and some hellions. Like watching an old cartoon when Tom and Jerry are running down a hallway and the same background is repeated again and again, you know? Warriors, wyches, raiders. 'Here is a warrior cult from the Severed Hand', next page, 'Oh look, here is a warrior cult from the Black Heart'...

I know GW are planning further wave releases and this seems to be their marketing strategy but a large part of me thinks 'they have had the best part of 12 years to sculpt, plan and develop this line - is it too much trouble to expect them to have fleshed out the mini range at least a little bit more upon release?'

I really want to start using my DE army again and looking into some of these new choices but I am buggered if I am going to scratch build half my army or even worse, proxy it, on the premise that GW may release new minis at some undetermined point.

Most reasonable Dark Eldar gripe I've seen so far. Good work!

I think this is one of the flaws with releasing things in waves, although it should speed up the production cycle, as initially some things will be unsupported.
I'm unsure as to when you last checked the N+R forum, but it basically stands as apparently Jez Goodwin saying "He said that they will have 90% of the Dark Eldar models in the Codex released by June next year" which should give you some hope. Taken with a pinch of salt of course!
(Also, apparently the Storm Raven is on its way.)

I know what you mean about White Dwarf not suggesting any conversions though, but that's a whole different topic!

I understand your concerns, but all is not lost.

One assumes that, given no GW models exist, it is still considered illegal to use others' minis in GW tournaments?

freecloud wrote:One assumes that, given no GW models exist, it is still considered illegal to use others' minis in GW tournaments?

That's pretty much always been the case, whether a mini exists or not, GW never tolerate other's products in their tourneys.


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Just Dave wrote:Most reasonable Dark Eldar gripe I've seen so far. Good work!

I think this is one of the flaws with releasing things in waves, although it should speed up the production cycle, as initially some things will be unsupported.
I'm unsure as to when you last checked the N+R forum, but it basically stands as apparently Jez Goodwin saying "He said that they will have 90% of the Dark Eldar models in the Codex released by June next year" which should give you some hope. Taken with a pinch of salt of course!
(Also, apparently the Storm Raven is on its way.)

I know what you mean about White Dwarf not suggesting any conversions though, but that's a whole different topic!

I understand your concerns, but all is not lost.

I had indeed read the N&R business reference Mr Goodwin but I choose to take it with a very heavy pinch of salt. When it comes to official communiques from GW, I am very much in the 'believe it when I see it' camp.

I think they have fairly good intentions, it's just I think sometimes the planning could be a wee bit better. Were it not always the case though! And I lament the days gone by (and I suspect many of us so-called 'veterans' do) when WD used to be a decent addendum to the hobby where you could pick up new rules, new units and see awesome scratch builds to fire the imagination. To reiterate; my beef is not necessarily there not being any models available, more so the fact that if GW intend people to build/convert their own, then they could at least provide some form of guidance/suggestion/examples.

Except they dont want you to build your own, as they will be providing model support for it.

The "waves" release means you get more interesting codexes. If you could only include models that are actually available at launch, then units would be cut - as used to happen.

They only have limited production space as well. I prefer waves as it means you also get something "new" every 2 years, rather than lots and then nothing for 5/6+ years.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they dont want you to build your own, as they will be providing model support for it.

The "waves" release means you get more interesting codexes. If you could only include models that are actually available at launch, then units would be cut - as used to happen.

They only have limited production space as well. I prefer waves as it means you also get something "new" every 2 years, rather than lots and then nothing for 5/6+ years.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but we are still waiting on models from GW for some Tyranid and BA units and that's a year or two years down the road now? I think that disabuses the notion that GW do want to produce the models.

And if this DE codex were like the Tyranid and BA ones then it wouldn't be as bad, given that there were only 2 or 3 units without models in those codices. But the number of DE units that are currently without models is staggering. Even if GW do plan to release them all within the next couple of years, there is still a huge amount of stuff that needs to be done and that is missing.

Tyranid Codex: January 2010
Blood Angel: April 2010

Hardly 2 years. Hell 5th ed was only out in 2008....

Really doesnt disabuse the notion. In addition I assume you missed the timeframe - up to 2 years would be reasonable given the codex refresh. Stormraven (only missing BA mainstay unit) is out early next year with GK

In addition the wracks etc will be released in the next 6 - 9 months. It DOES take time to find space on production lines.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tyranid Codex: January 2010
Blood Angel: April 2010

Hardly 2 years. Hell 5th ed was only out in 2008....

Really doesnt disabuse the notion. In addition I assume you missed the timeframe - up to 2 years would be reasonable given the codex refresh. Stormraven (only missing BA mainstay unit) is out early next year with GK

In addition the wracks etc will be released in the next 6 - 9 months. It DOES take time to find space on production lines.

Apologies, I thought Tyranids was last year and BA was released in January - my memory gets worse the older I get.

Either way, as I said earlier, when it comes to GW, I will believe it when I see it - the News & Rumours section is littered with the burnt out husks of 'information' purporting one thing or another to be released and it doesn't always come true.

I'll admit, I rolled my eyes when I saw the title. I thought "Oh great, another noob complaining because they don't know how to play Dark Eldar."

But good sir, you have the most legit complaint around, and I also agree with you. My buddy and I both started Dark Eldar for our second armies because we loved the playstyle we were hearing about, and of course, the models are insanely awesome. So we're all happy and making our lists off a codex we got our hands on, and that's when we realized it. Half the things we were wanting to use are missing models! I don't have it as bad off, it's not a ton of stuff for me, just here and there, whereas my friend wants to use a Venom-heavy army. I wanted a Venom or two too, so we are both bummed that we pretty much have to proxy them until the dang model comes out.

And no, we won't convert them. We're both garbage at converting.

I'd rather have the options in the codex and not have models than not have the options in the first place. Yes, it would be nice if White Dwarf showed examples, but then again, who buys white dwarf?

I don't completely mind some aspects of it. Conversions can be really cool. Not only that, but I'd rather have new codices come out without models then not come out at all.

My gripe was the lack of artwork for some of the stuff. What does the court look like? Lady Malys? The Duke? No one could be bothered to sketch that stuff? Totally lame.

Well if the rumours are true we don't have long to wait for the other models. Though I find this codex's lack of artwork disturbing.

Irdiumstern wrote:I'd rather have the options in the codex and not have models than not have the options in the first place. Yes, it would be nice if White Dwarf showed examples, but then again, who buys white dwarf?

QFT.

Given limited production windows, its one or the other, boring codices with everything represented, or more interesting books that help push forward the hobbyist aspect of them game.

I know which I prefer.

Jack

Well, I think that a considerable amount of thought/preparation goes into each new model release they create. Perhaps it has been the lack of popularity of the DE that has put the project and revisions on hold for the longest time. Like any company or corporation, you dont reveal your whole lineup without testing the market first. Instead you trickle your product out, let the consumer drool over it and await your next releases in anticipation. That just a fundamental of capitalism and successful business. Furthermore, they are planning to release a Storm raven kit (judging by the photo that accidentally leaked from their site), sooner than we think. And, with regard to the missing representation of new unit types, there is a second wave (like you mentioned) set for release for the DE. I think these missing elements of the game are intentional in some cases. It is a great way to maintain a perpetual interest in the game and expand the creativity of players. furthermore, it leaves doors open for GW to return to these ideas and expand on them in the coming years. Just because we want everything released right now (and trust me im one of those people as well), doesnt neccessarily make it a good idea to flood their lineup with new stuff...that is potentially alot of revenue they would lose if they cannot exhaust every aspect of the new release (ie; articles in white dwarf, painting and modeling tutorials, releases at the stores, etc) before the promotion of the next new item(s).

Well, from a business standpoint, I'm sure they want to release things piecemeal in case there is not enough interest to make new models worthwhile. Releasing them in waves gives GW time to gauge peoples interest and allocate their resources accordingly.
Also, I'm sure if they released the entire range at once, people would be bitching about how they can't afford all these new models.

Just Dave wrote:Most reasonable Dark Eldar gripe I've seen so far. Good work!
...
I'm unsure as to when you last checked the N+R forum, but it basically stands as apparently Jez Goodwin saying "He said that they will have 90% of the Dark Eldar models in the Codex released by June next year" which should give you some hope...

Agreed. The 90% by June is pretty good given the volume of model DE needed. The second half of the DE releases are all some armies have gotten. Given the fact GW knows DE's success hinges on this support their releases aren't going to get bumped. I think DE are going to be in a comfy place.

I hate GW for doing this. It's so annoying. I hate having to wait for months (or even years) for the models to come out so i can play my army as intended!

MukkinABout - except the alternative is the options are just not included in the book at all.

I would rather have the options in the codex, with a model 2 years away, than not have any option to field that unit at all.

filbert wrote:But the number of DE units that are currently without models is staggering. Even if GW do plan to release them all within the next couple of years, there is still a huge amount of stuff that needs to be done and that is missing.

Use the older DE models to fill in blanks then. That is what Tyranids and BA are doing, as last time I checked, neither of these armies had every single miniature in their list replaced with new models. Yeah, I that is worth noting when comparing them to the current DE.

filbert wrote:You are entitled to your opinion of course but we are still waiting on models from GW for some Tyranid and BA units and that's a year or two years down the road now? I think that disabuses the notion that GW do want to produce the models.

GW could crank out metal models of for most of range(excepting vehicles) in a much shorter amount of time. Is it metals you want though? If not, you don't have much reason to complain about the 10 or so plastic sets that will be released within the first 9 months of the codex release. Or would you have been happier with the old models being kept and the old metal units being switched over to plastics, plus models being made for the few characters that there were never models for (i.e. the Decapitator, etc.)? They could have done that instead, but I prefer the newer models thank you very much.

In the history of the company, no army, not even Space Marines(of which GW manages to hump both legs of at the same time) has received this amount of attention, nor has any army ever had 6 plastic kits(and a few metals) released for it in but a few weeks.

So, tiniest violin, dude. Tiniest violin. I look forward to the rest of the models too, but in the meantime you should work on channeling the spirit of your avatar- "happy little trees, and fluffy little clouds".

I'm in the "You can't expect GW to manufacture everything all at once" camp and I also pitch my tent with those who think "I'd rather there was a range of units in the Codex than just what they could support at the time."

Being annoyed about this release particularly given the quality of the models is like grumbling that air only contains 20% oxygen.

My guess is that they are holding these DE releases to boost their quarterly sales. They probably planned to release some DE Q4 of 2010 to have good numbers, then release another wave Q1 of 2011 to have good sales then.

Flashman wrote:I'm in the "You can't expect GW to manufacture everything all at once" camp and I also pitch my tent with those who think "I'd rather there was a range of units in the Codex than just what they could support at the time."

Being annoyed about this release particularly given the quality of the models is like grumbling that air only contains 20% oxygen.

You have a point and normally I would be of the same viewpoint but we are not talking about a revisit of a 2-3 year old codex, we are talking about a 12 year old codex and that is quite a significant period of time to organise filling the model range especially given that there have been rumours that Jes Goodwin was sculpting this stuff for donkey's years now. I am less concerned about there not being any models right now and more annoyed about the fact that they have had so damn long to plan this that releasing the codex with huge gaps is really unnecessary.

As for the other poster noting that BA and Tyranid players are using existing models to 'count as' - fine. Except when you look at those codices there are maybe 2 or 3 units missing models, tops? Not really game breaking. Now go through the DE codex and see how much is missing there and quite major stuff too like most heavy support choices, the court of the Archon, new grotesques, etc etc. Not only that, but has also been pointed out, there is no artwork to offer any insights as to what this stuff could look like so therefore no guidance on how to proxy.

I am not one for complaining for the sake of it and whilst I don't always shout and cheer GW's business decisions, neither am I a needless GW basher - I just think that they have not planned this release effectively.


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Warboss Kannonblasta wrote:My guess is that they are holding these DE releases to boost their quarterly sales. They probably planned to release some DE Q4 of 2010 to have good numbers, then release another wave Q1 of 2011 to have good sales then.

The is probably much closer to the truth.

1) You dont release everything at once, even if you can.

People only have finite money *now*, and GW isnt something you tend to spend months saving for - its meant to be more impulse purchase.

If you release everything at once you dilute your sales. So they have released the core of the army now, with the lovely stuff to come.

2) They had 5 years of Jes persuading them to redo it. In addition so much of the book is *new* - because the old book was heavily lacking.

3) Manufacturing space is high premium as the machines used to create the models are in full time use anyway - so you have to reduce production of something else to make up. You can only do this with a number of units at any one time, especially when you need to build up higher than normal stocks for release fever.

To summarise: the model making business is a lot more complex than you seem to realise. And can people stop saying they had "12 years" to redo it? Thats such a...crass....way of saying it. 6 years is more like it - and thats to craft a new range from scratch AND adding new units.

Warboss Kannonblasta wrote:My guess is that they are holding these DE releases to boost their quarterly sales. They probably planned to release some DE Q4 of 2010 to have good numbers, then release another wave Q1 of 2011 to have good sales then.

I think that may have played a part but its not necessarily the whole reason. They're looking at 40k on a whole, I'm sure they're saying "3 months straight of nothing but DE is a bit much" and that "those who don't like DE might get bored." So they want to insert some items in between Wave 1.5 and Wave 2. That leads me to the next part, the initial wave 1 and wave 1.5 is a significant amount to releases that were probably tying up the production equipment for a long time. GW has to consider how worth while running that equipment with only DE is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:6 years is more like it - and thats to craft a new range from scratch AND adding new units.

Tomato - tomahto. You have a way of dressing opinion as fact. You think 6 years is not a long time to do it, I think it is.

filbert wrote:You are entitled to your opinion of course but we are still waiting on models from GW for some Tyranid and BA units and that's a year or two years down the road now? I think that disabuses the notion that GW do want to produce the models.

The only model that BA are lacking is the stormraven - one model from the whole codex. And the pics have already leaked of the official model.

Nid's are currently missing three models (excluding special characters).

Filbert - except that is how long Jes has been saying he was making the minis for. Sorry, your opinions are based on hyperbole, mine arent.

As for the rest of the post - assuming you are dismissing them as opinion? They really arent.

You can always have the alternative: you get no exciting new units. Take it or leave it, but pick one and stop whining about the choices GW made....

This has been stated before but its seriously why i'm angry
you had 12 GD years guys, How can you not have all your models done?!?
The alternative really is to wait until they have all the models done BEFORE releasing the codex. But who knows how long you'd have to wait.
Releasing codexes with models missing from the range has been an annoying GW habit. I would rather wait a few years more since i have to wait that long anyways to get the models i want to play.
Solution? Finish what you started before you move on to your next project!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Filbert - except that is how long Jes has been saying he was making the minis for. Sorry, your opinions are based on hyperbole, mine arent.

I'm sure Jes has mentioned that's how long he had - I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that I think 6 years is plenty of time to have redone the units and planned the release and you don't think it is long enough.

As for the rest of the post - assuming you are dismissing them as opinion? They really arent.

So you are privy to all of GW's marketing strategy now? How do you know that this is a deliberate strategy and not a cock-up / oversight / misjudgement? Goodness knows GW have made plenty of those in the 18+ years of experience I have of being a customer of theirs.

You can always have the alternative: you get no exciting new units. Take it or leave it, but pick one and stop whining about the choices GW made....

So I am not allowed to criticise the almighty GW then? It is something that I think they have dropped the ball on and I have presented it as such in the thread. You opinion may differ - fine. But I don't need you or anyone else to tell me I am whining about the choices GW make. I am a long standing customer and if I want to complain about them on a public forum then I will do so.

If you have read my posts instead of arguing for the sake of being argumentative then you would have noticed that I am not 'whining' rather trying to see the logic behind their decision. As stated I am not against proxies or scratch builds nor am I disputing that there may be models released at some undetermined point in the future. I am simply criticising the decision to do it this way. Are you really suggesting it is beyond GW's scope as a multi million pound business to release the codex and have the model range produced and designed in the 6 years or so prior to release? It's not a question of having boring codexes or more models - that is not a choice that should be made; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Mukkin about - no, they had 6 years. Do you think they started redoing the codex as soon as the ink was dry on the 2nd edition of the 3rd ed codex? It was 6 years ago that they started - and from what they were saying it took a long time for Jes and co to convince the people who control the purse strings.

The old policy was: only release what models are available, and cut anything extra from the codex. Result: less diverse codexes, 5yrs between model releases.

New policy: Put something exciting into the codex KNOWING you WILL release models eventually. Result: more interesting codexes, people can convert while waiting, 1 - 2 yrs between model releases (or less)

Which is a better policy for satisfying more people? The first one isnt, thats for sure. GW know this having tried it....

Filbert - No, I never actually said that. If you'd actually read my posts (sigh) you would have seen what I had written, which is that releasing 15 model sets at once is to paraphrase myself, a DUMB idea for a company. You have yet to refute the reasoning (and some actual knowledge on my part) behind this, and you accuse me of arguing for the sake?

I am not privy to all of it, just enough of it. No, I wont say who or where. Sorry, not interested in proving anythingt o random internet person no 215765.

I didnt say you couldnt complain, but the tone is most definitely whining. You also chose not to engage with any points (just wave hands dismissal, yay worthwhile posting) after getting key facts wrong earlier on which gutted the core out of your argument.

Fact: the models WILL be released. They WILL be gorgeous (no, not seen them - but seriously any doubts about them have gone fgrom my mind on this first wave alone. Hell, just Lelith was enough to remind me of Jes minor god hood for modelling) and the vast majority will be out in 6 months time. Thats called

Phased
Releases

Its a common concept in marketing, and a succesful way of marketing an impulse buy product like the stuff GW makes.