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puma713 wrote:

thunderingjove wrote:What about orks? What's their answer?


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What about orks? What's their answer?

15 Burnas in a Battlewagon.

I did that successfully in my last tournament. Caused over 30 wounds! All he had left was a wounded lord and banner dude.

Orks likes 'umies burnt and krispy!!!

Yuber wrote:A really really good tactic that works against TWC all the time, is to put really weak units in a conga line where TWCs are headed. The idea is to "receive" the TWC, and thanks to their 40mm bases, is very EASY to achieve.

What happens is that the TWC player assaults the weak unit, annihilating it on HIS assault phase. This opens him up to an entire round of shooting. A proper shooting phase will wittle down even a 5-man TWC into half strength.

The next step depends on the make up of your army, it would be one of the 2:

-Hit them with your counter charge units: Assault Terminators, Dreadnoughts, etc.
-Throw more fodder at them: Grots, 30-man boyz, blobs.

An alternate tactic would be to do the same with really cheap vehicles like rhinos and speeders. Make sure you move cruising speed while blocking them on the turn. They will need to hit them on 6's and because they cant locked, you open them up again for another shooting turn.

What really ruins a TWC spam army is proper mechanized army. Just block the way with tanks, you'll see how easy it is to kill TWC cheese lists.

Your answering the point of twc by putting them against mech, the mech will be dealt with by the long fangs, melta scouts, drop pod melta grey hunters or sw mech and the twc will be there to plough straight into the troops that come spilling out of the wrecked vehicles. twc isnt the whole list just the remainder of the list once the heavy weapons have done there job.
as for putting cheap units in front the same answer applies the twc can spend the time chewing up cheap units cos the mech has been dealt with by the rest of the army.




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The Strange Dude wrote:As I suggested the last time this came up stand on the second floor + of any ruins and ignore them as they don't have guns and by the rules can't assault you.

firstly why cant they assault?

also if you have a unit up high that the twc cant get (they do have guns btw) the twc will just move 24 on to the next target and leave the high unit high and dry

fox40 wrote:
firstly why cant they assault?

also if you have a unit up high that the twc cant get (they do have guns btw) the twc will just move 24 on to the next target and leave the high unit high and dry

Here's the rules discussion from last time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319336.page

How are they moving 24? 6" move 1-6" fleet then a 12" charge if they are in range.

Best advice I can give any one facing TWC … remember that they're beasts; beasts cannot clime buildings.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Epicwargamer wrote:Hello all.

I play Space Marines. I was looking for Tactica against the Space Wolves Thunderwolf Calvary. Thanks!

EWG

hit them with enough twin linked flame throwers and they'll die too. say.... drop pod stern guard 10 flamers should do a good deal of damage. If you assume 4 hits per flame thrower thats 40 hits, 5s wound with rerolls gives 20 wounds, 3+ saves gives 7 wounds, or about half the unit. maybe less if there's a wolf lord in there to take some of the hits.

You've never actually done this before have you.

1 - Pray your drop pod doesn't scatter away from the TWC. To avoid this that means your taking scouts or scout bikers that somehow got within 12" of the TWC before the pod drops.
2 - its impossible to line up 10 guys within 2" of the drop pod and make it so they can all hit 4 models without at least some of them hitting the guy in front of them (which means you can't shoot the flamer).
3 - You would have to take the SC that makes flamers TL, and then that means your Sternguard are not scoring because its a different SC. So you better hope your 300+ points for the unit does something cool.

fox40 wrote:

Yuber wrote:A really really good tactic that works against TWC all the time, is to put really weak units in a conga line where TWCs are headed. The idea is to "receive" the TWC, and thanks to their 40mm bases, is very EASY to achieve.

What happens is that the TWC player assaults the weak unit, annihilating it on HIS assault phase. This opens him up to an entire round of shooting. A proper shooting phase will wittle down even a 5-man TWC into half strength.

The next step depends on the make up of your army, it would be one of the 2:

-Hit them with your counter charge units: Assault Terminators, Dreadnoughts, etc.
-Throw more fodder at them: Grots, 30-man boyz, blobs.

An alternate tactic would be to do the same with really cheap vehicles like rhinos and speeders. Make sure you move cruising speed while blocking them on the turn. They will need to hit them on 6's and because they cant locked, you open them up again for another shooting turn.

What really ruins a TWC spam army is proper mechanized army. Just block the way with tanks, you'll see how easy it is to kill TWC cheese lists.

Your answering the point of twc by putting them against mech, the mech will be dealt with by the long fangs, melta scouts, drop pod melta grey hunters or sw mech and the twc will be there to plough straight into the troops that come spilling out of the wrecked vehicles. twc isnt the whole list just the remainder of the list once the heavy weapons have done there job.
as for putting cheap units in front the same answer applies the twc can spend the time chewing up cheap units cos the mech has been dealt with by the rest of the army.


Have you seen a TWC spam list? they usually dont have enough room for "other guys" to do "something else", like your drop pod meltas or wolf scouts or that many long fangs. The only time TWC becomes a real problem is when they are spammed to oblivion. Anything less doesn't make them that scary.

I thiink the Vindi that you just got should make short work of them. Also a couple of Holy Handgrenades won't hurt either.

Skelly wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Plain old rapid fire works, especially sternguard wound on 2+ ammo. Against their 3+ 3++ saves 18 rapid fire sternguard shots has the same effect as 18 lascannons.

Sure it's the equivalent of 18 lascannon shots, but that's still only around 3 unsaved wounds after the mathhammer. 3 wounds isn't even enough to take out a single model. With wound allocation you would need around 6-7 wounds (for an average thunder wolf squad with lord) just to take out a single model, and that's IF the other player doesn't allocate more onto the Lord or wargear fenrisian wolves. Also, most competitive space wolf players won't equip every single thunderwolf cavalry with a storm shield as it's extremely expensive, making lascannons far better.

What you really need are just a massive massive amount of shots to pour into them. Sometimes though you may not be able to wipe out the squad even with your entire army shooting at it, especially if your army favors a low amount of high str/ap shots instead of just volume. I've had my thunderwolf deathstar survive mass melta and bolter shots from a biker army, as well as a huge amount of shoota boys (over 120 shots) + lootas in one turn and still make it into close combat.

That Null Zone sounds really nasty though, that combined with mass shooting is your best bet to taking them down.

A large TWC unit is a huge point sink deathstar. If you're talking about a unit that is large say 6 TWC it's a huge point sink (over 300 nakid), and dumping 12 wounds on them is the way to go because there is less wound allocation shinanigans that they can pull. 12 wounds on 6 models means each model makes 2 saves, and there is no way for the space wolf player to tell what models will fail their saves. No one unit is going to wreck 500 to 600 points of TWC, but dumping large numbers of regular wounds on them means the ones with storm shields have to take regular saves.

fox40 wrote:

Mellon wrote:

fox40 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Plain old rapid fire works, especially sternguard wound on 2+ ammo. Against their 3+ 3++ saves 18 rapid fire sternguard shots has the same effect as 18 lascannons.

dont the sternguard weapons only have a 24" range or is it less?
so chances are the thunderwolf cav will get in the assault first before the stern can fire due to cover from terrain or horde cover.
thunderwolf cav are very good units, fast and quite tough. its tricky going against a sw army with lots of cav cos you need to decide what to focus your fire on there tanks or twc, if you go for the twc the tanks are going to unload on you and if you take on the tanks the twc will be assaulting you in turn 2 the latest (normally)

Yes, sternguard have rather short ranges and risk being charged, but it's quite useful with some clever positioning, since they can move and shoot. If I drop pod or libby-gate my sternguard to stand between the thunderwolves and my opponents board edge he can of course assault them, but will then be running exactly towards where I want him to be (away from the important parts of my army). I can also put sacrificial units between my sternguard and the wolves, since the cover save a unit offers is still worse than the saves already available to wolves.

if you put your stern between my wolves and my board edge, if they are not the best target i can move 24" away and leave the stern stuck with nothing to do.
and i wasnt saying about putting meat shields in between i was talking horde cover so fenrisians and thunderwolf mixed group, like ork players do. everything gets cover saves.
i know stern will be good against twc but twc have the choice of powerful attacks or fast speed. along with horde cover its a strong combination

Move 12" forward in a rhino, spin around, and disembark in a rhino ass attack=26" threat radius for sternguard rapid fire. Most smurf players would instead wait for the TWC to come to them or feed them a baiting unit before shooting them up. The best possible way to deal with TWC is to fight them in your deployment zone with your entire army, the speed of a 24" charge can get TWC into a lot of trouble. If it's a large 500-600 point unit with good durability for it's point cost the universal way to deal with it is to throw over 1000 points of firepower & CC at it.

schadenfreude:

18 lascannon shots isn't 12 wounds. It's 12 hits, with 10 wounds, and 3.33 unsaved wounds. On a fresh set of 6 thunderwolves (5 + lord) you're barely over halfway to killing off a complete model and that's IF no fenrisian wolves are taken.

Also your argument on not having enough wargear for wound allocation is invalid. A maxed out thunderwolf cav squad is 5 models: Free upgrade bolter, 5 pt. meltabombs, storm shield, special weapon, and a naked twolf is all the wound allocation you will need with the extras costing relatively nothing.

What I'm trying to say is although yes this thunderwolf deathstar will be very expensive, around 500-600 points, your 18 rapid fire sternguard shots won't do jack to it. You need a lot more firepower than that just to dent it.

I rolled out two 10 man kabalite warrior squads, a 13 man hellion squad, 2 ravagers, and a razorwing jetfighter all firing into a unit of 7 (2 wold lords mounted in a unit of 5). that is about 1000 + points firing into a single unit, and it still did not go down.

Nickel and Dime them. One's and two's have to show up eventually.

Hmm, so how do 30 shoota boys on foot fare assuming they have one round of shooting befor their charged all dead (well maybe not)... pretty please mathhammers

Assuming they don't get the charge (which is likely to be the case), things look pretty dismal for them.

However, they'd keep the wolves tied up for a turn or two, which is nice.

ChrisCP wrote:Hmm, so how do 30 shoota boys on foot fare assuming they have one round of shooting befor their charged all dead (well maybe not)... pretty please mathhammers

You'll hit with 20 shots, and do 6.66666667 wounds. After saves it's a little over 2 wounds, roughly 2.2.

The assault phase will look pretty grim for you, expect to take massive casualties and tons of saves due to lost combat resolution and fearless. You may last a turn and tie them up but don't expect to hold much longer than that.

If you get the charge and have a powerklaw nob in there you could deal a bit more damage on the twolf unit before getting wiped out.

Sternguard + Libby with null zone.
or
3 Tactical squads
or
Dire Avengers Baldestorm
or
30 Guardsman FRFSRF, 2 LR Punishers
or anything shooty.
Just have some balls let them charge something and shoot the gak out of them. I run them and hate when this happens.

Skelly wrote:schadenfreude:

18 lascannon shots isn't 12 wounds. It's 12 hits, with 10 wounds, and 3.33 unsaved wounds. On a fresh set of 6 thunderwolves (5 + lord) you're barely over halfway to killing off a complete model and that's IF no fenrisian wolves are taken.

Also your argument on not having enough wargear for wound allocation is invalid. A maxed out thunderwolf cav squad is 5 models: Free upgrade bolter, 5 pt. meltabombs, storm shield, special weapon, and a naked twolf is all the wound allocation you will need with the extras costing relatively nothing.

What I'm trying to say is although yes this thunderwolf deathstar will be very expensive, around 500-600 points, your 18 rapid fire sternguard shots won't do jack to it. You need a lot more firepower than that just to dent it.

3.3 wounds is a dent. I already said when dealing with a deathstar you should throw about double its points value at it. 3.3 wounds is 33% of a 10 wound unit, which is good for a unit half of its cost. An equal cost in sternguard say 2 units would be 6.6 wounds, then follow it up with a dev squad quad crack and things get even more ugly. I already said its going to take 1000 points or so, so sternguard doing 3.3 with the first 250 points is above par.

Wound allocation is limited in what it can do against a lot of rwgular wounds. Twc have enough diverse models, but mass wounds and randomized hits means there is still no control over where the wounds go. Mass regular wounds from sternguard or lootas dump wounds on the most expensive models like ss

schadenfreude wrote:

Skelly wrote:schadenfreude:

18 lascannon shots isn't 12 wounds. It's 12 hits, with 10 wounds, and 3.33 unsaved wounds. On a fresh set of 6 thunderwolves (5 + lord) you're barely over halfway to killing off a complete model and that's IF no fenrisian wolves are taken.

Also your argument on not having enough wargear for wound allocation is invalid. A maxed out thunderwolf cav squad is 5 models: Free upgrade bolter, 5 pt. meltabombs, storm shield, special weapon, and a naked twolf is all the wound allocation you will need with the extras costing relatively nothing.

What I'm trying to say is although yes this thunderwolf deathstar will be very expensive, around 500-600 points, your 18 rapid fire sternguard shots won't do jack to it. You need a lot more firepower than that just to dent it.

3.3 wounds is a dent. I already said when dealing with a deathstar you should throw about double its points value at it. 3.3 wounds is 33% of a 10 wound unit, which is good for a unit half of its cost. An equal cost in sternguard say 2 units would be 6.6 wounds, then follow it up with a dev squad quad crack and things get even more ugly. I already said its going to take 1000 points or so, so sternguard doing 3.3 with the first 250 points is above par.

Wound allocation is limited in what it can do against a lot of rwgular wounds. Twc have enough diverse models, but mass wounds and randomized hits means there is still no control over where the wounds go. Mass regular wounds from sternguard or lootas dump wounds on the most expensive models like ss

... with careful allocation that’s not even one dead wolf.

fox40 wrote:dont forget as a 15 thunder cav player plus 20 fenrisians. i can horde mix them so even with st10 etc i get cover saves. and my 2 squads of bs4 melta scouts can take out 2 vindis quick as can my 4 drop pod melta grey hunters. any good sw lost has plenty of anti armour for turn 1 and then horde cav to speed 24" a turn till it gets to hack 6 attacks each into what ever is still around. each of my squads of thunderwolves has 30 attacks on the charge with either a power weapon or rending plus the fenrisian attacks

Just your cav and wolves is 1,000 points on the table. Thunderfire cannon (moves through difficult terrain), libbie with nullzone and then spam lascannon, krak missile, plasma. One squad will not get cover as per latest GW FAQ.

Stick the sniper/missile scouts on the second floor of a building as well. Add telion for wound allocation.

schadenfreude wrote:

Skelly wrote:schadenfreude:

18 lascannon shots isn't 12 wounds. It's 12 hits, with 10 wounds, and 3.33 unsaved wounds. On a fresh set of 6 thunderwolves (5 + lord) you're barely over halfway to killing off a complete model and that's IF no fenrisian wolves are taken.

Also your argument on not having enough wargear for wound allocation is invalid. A maxed out thunderwolf cav squad is 5 models: Free upgrade bolter, 5 pt. meltabombs, storm shield, special weapon, and a naked twolf is all the wound allocation you will need with the extras costing relatively nothing.

What I'm trying to say is although yes this thunderwolf deathstar will be very expensive, around 500-600 points, your 18 rapid fire sternguard shots won't do jack to it. You need a lot more firepower than that just to dent it.

3.3 wounds is a dent. I already said when dealing with a deathstar you should throw about double its points value at it. 3.3 wounds is 33% of a 10 wound unit, which is good for a unit half of its cost. An equal cost in sternguard say 2 units would be 6.6 wounds, then follow it up with a dev squad quad crack and things get even more ugly. I already said its going to take 1000 points or so, so sternguard doing 3.3 with the first 250 points is above par.

Wound allocation is limited in what it can do against a lot of rwgular wounds. Twc have enough diverse models, but mass wounds and randomized hits means there is still no control over where the wounds go. Mass regular wounds from sternguard or lootas dump wounds on the most expensive models like ss

Didn't get to read your entire post, I was only commenting on your statement that 9 rapid fire sternguard was sufficient to deal with thunderwolves. A 600 point thunderwolf deathstar will include a wolf lord, who has 3 wounds, and usually a 2+ save and 2x fenrisian wolves. 3.3 wounds is not significant to a 15 wound unit. Now if you dump in 1000 points then sure... the twolves are going to take some damage.

As for the wounds and randomized hits... I'm not sure what you're talking about. Since each thunderwolf has different wargear, the owning player chooses which wounds to allocate on which models instead of taking out whole models first as per usual.

For example: you deal 7 wounds to a 5 man strong thunderwolf cavalry unit, I would have to put a single wound on each model but then would be able to allocate the last two wounds (7-5=2) onto less significant models such as a naked thunderwolf or one carrying meltabombs. If you were to shoot again with a separate unit dealing another 2 wounds, I could then again allocate those two wounds only onto the naked and melta bomb models.

Never would I HAVE to dump more [mass] wounds onto my most expensive models, rather than the cheaper models. At most it would be an even amount if you were to wound in multiples of 5.

Skelly wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Hmm, so how do 30 shoota boys on foot fare assuming they have one round of shooting befor their charged all dead (well maybe not)... pretty please mathhammers

You'll hit with 20 shots, and do 6.66666667 wounds. After saves it's a little over 2 wounds, roughly 2.2.

The assault phase will look pretty grim for you, expect to take massive casualties and tons of saves due to lost combat resolution and fearless. You may last a turn and tie them up but don't expect to hold much longer than that.

If you get the charge and have a powerklaw nob in there you could deal a bit more damage on the twolf unit before getting wiped out.

Thanks, I think one would actually wind up out of models by the end of ones assault phase anyway, so probably not going to hold them up much :(

The IG are lucky....Psyker battle squad plus pinning weapons/artillery...stay out of the 24" radius of a rune priest and watch as them wolves cower after 1 pin wound, or if you are lucky and cause 25% casualties...panic and run 3d6 inches away....unless you fail your psychic test or he rolls 2 1's....

Psyker battle squad may also have their power negated by a wolf tail talisman on a 5+ or if Njal is on the board a 3+


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I watched my 7 man TWC fall to two long fangs squads, half missles half las, two heavy bolter razor backs, two wolf guard termies with cyclones, two rune priests, and two land speeders. I rolled terrible for fleet and terrain two turns in a row, top of three I had 1 Wolf lord standing with a single wound. I run 3 lords (2 fenrisians a piece), 4 TWC... dakka'd down hardcore. He did roll well and I did roll close to odds but it was still rediculous.

themrsleepy wrote:Psyker battle squad may also have their power negated by a wolf tail talisman on a 5+ or if Njal is on the board a 3+


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I watched my 7 man TWC fall to two long fangs squads, half missles half las, two heavy bolter razor backs, two wolf guard termies with cyclones, two rune priests, and two land speeders. I rolled terrible for fleet and terrain two turns in a row, top of three I had 1 Wolf lord standing with a single wound. I run 3 lords (2 fenrisians a piece), 4 TWC... dakka'd down hardcore. He did roll well and I did roll close to odds but it was still rediculous.

yep..which is why I go for the pin first with multiple artillery....with ordnance barrage that's a -1 to his pin check so even on a 9 if he rolls at least twice there is a chance he will get pinned...then I can use the PBS on another squad without the talisman....with Njal on board well nothing you can do...use the PBS or lose it...you have to try anyway or else what's the use of fielding the PBS???

Problem with trying to pin them is saga of majesty allows reroll of LD. Good luck pinning ld 9 with reroll.

themrsleepy wrote:Problem with trying to pin them is saga of majesty allows reroll of LD. Good luck pinning ld 9 with reroll.

yep that is correct..but it still happens folks.....

the next step is to try to cause 25% casualties, then hit them with the PBS...hope that gets through any dispel (not all lists play Njal anyway)...

If not, then kill them the old fashioned way..shoot them to death, as they try to negotiate through a lot of speedbumps thrown at them (I don't use veterans...I use more SWS and PCS units to make up for the lack of BS4..and PCS and SWS make better speedbumps anyway..)

Let's just face facts for approx 300 points you get a solid 5 man twc squad. As for people. Saying a twc spam list won't have much else in it. I have already posted a twc list for 2000 points that contains 15twc, 4 drop pod assault squads, 2 fenrisian wolf packs, 2 scout squads and. 3 hq on tw mounts. The list is melta heavy so has plenty of punch with only approx 900 points or just under in twc. So that's 18 thunderwolves on the table and enough melta to knock out a reasonable amount of mech.

fox40 wrote:Let's just face facts for approx 300 points you get a solid 5 man twc squad. As for people. Saying a twc spam list won't have much else in it. I have already posted a twc list for 2000 points that contains 15twc, 4 drop pod assault squads, 2 fenrisian wolf packs, 2 scout squads and. 3 hq on tw mounts. The list is melta heavy so has plenty of punch with only approx 900 points or just under in twc. So that's 18 thunderwolves on the table and enough melta to knock out a reasonable amount of mech.

seems like a good list....should be fun facing them...

themrsleepy wrote:Problem with trying to pin them is saga of majesty allows reroll of LD. Good luck pinning ld 9 with reroll.

Wouldn't PBS knock that down to LD2 with a reroll?
As far as I can remember Njarl and runpriests still only have a 24" range for their psychic defense, PBS has a 36" range on dropping leadership which give them a foot of reach over Njarl, and TWC tend to operate a bit ahead of the runepriest.
Wolf tooth necklaces are completely unavoidable, but are only a 5+.

The other nasty IG toy is Manticores. The str10 is insta kill, and it's a pinning attack. PBS+Manticore+3D6 flee distance can easily=TWC running off the board. I would fly a Vendetta at flat out behind the TWC for good measure to make sure they don't regroup and flee another 3D6 on the IG turn, and 6D6 should knock them off the board.


Also on a previous point about wound allocation, I did a poor job at explaining my point. If the total # of wounds is double the number of models in a squad wound allocation isn't that big of a deal. So for example if 11 wounds were scored on 5 models it's not a big deal where that 11th wound goes. On the other hand if the number of wounds is small and there is a mix of invos and regular saves wound allocation is a huge deal. So for example if 2 regular and 1 invo save were inflicted on the squad it's a huge deal as the 2 least expensive eat the regular wounds and a SS takes the invo. Because of that sternguard are a good unit to soften them up a bit with a large volume of wounds with the hope that the SS fails a wound. It also might be necessary to wipe out any fenris wolves attached to the unit as they have no save from the bolt gun and tend to eat AP3 and/or STR10 wounds landed on the TWC.

For smurfs however the MVP against TWC is probably the librarian. Since the target of null zone is the librarian I don't think wolf tooth necklaces will work, and it's easy for a librarian in the smurf's deployment zone to avoid TWC.

Orks have lots of good tools against TWC. That being said throwing 200 points of boys against 600 points of TWC and expecting them to win just won't work. Deffrollas insta kill wolves, dakka boys & lootas can drop a lot of wounds on them, and slugga boys can get off a lot of attacks before thunderhammers mop up. Like always the trick is to use overwhelming force such as deffrolla+lootas+more lootas+ more dakka from 30 shoota boys+charge with 20 slugga boys from the wagon=dead TWC. TWC have a lot of speed, which means they can get into a lot of trouble. Handle them just like any other deathstar:Look at their cost of the deathstar and throw double the number of points at it. If it's 500 points of TWC in a 2k game it's going to take at least half your army to drop it in a turn.

...? null zone, stern guard? They do still have a 3+ save and if you're close enough for Vengeance Rounds (18" range if i remember right) you're getting charged by unhappy TWC.

Sternguard would be better on the top floor of a building shooting Kraken bolts (Hellfire if they're in range)

Incorrect Tri if you just sit back and let them come then you will die you can easily be within 18 inches or close to 12 if you want to kill them. As we are talking about sternguard and a libby then we are talking about vanilla marines and if you sit back with them against a sw list with twc you will probably get tabled. The best way to defeat them with vanilla marines is get up close and bolter the gak out of them.

The null zone isn't for the sternguard, it's for the krak missiles, lascannon, plasma, and dreadnaught CCW attacks that will eventually follow.