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You don't need flamers against blob IG, but you do need melta guns to take down vendettas and heavy support that is most likely artillery or tanks.

2 squads of assault marines=50 attacks on the charge 55% cause a wound=28 wounds on the charge. 16 bolt pistols and 4 melta guns should inflict 3 casualties even if the blob is in cover and went to ground. Three casualties will reduce the size of the IG blob to 28 when it takes 28 wounds. Every guardsman takes a wound and 2/3 of them die. 2/3 of the power weapons will die, and there is a 66% chance the commissar is among the dead which will result in the loss of suborn. On average all that will remain at I3 is about 7 guardsmen, 4/12 power weapon attacks (1.3 live power weapons), and the BA player still has 6 power fist swings as follow up.

The entire point of playing BA jump marines is so you can annihilate a 225-250 point squad by hitting them with 470 points of jump marines.

Do also take note that blobs cant take PFists. Only power weapons. So getting Mephiston into combat with a blob is pretty much game over. You can't hurt T7 with S3.

Yuber wrote:Do also take note that blobs cant take PFists. Only power weapons. So getting Mephiston into combat with a blob is pretty much game over. You can't hurt T7 with S3.

\

And as Mephiston is only T6, this will result in him getting battered once or twice a turn, and finding himself unable to break re-rollable, Stubborn Ld 9

darkdm wrote:I play IG, and have been running a 30 man power blob a lot lately. I have done bad things to jump BA lists in CC, but ironically it's their shooting that's done the blob in. Flamers are one of the power blobs worst enemies, particularly if you get get the blob while it's tightly packed. I've lost my blob several times to flamers, very rarely to combat.

Though it's been suggested already, I'd advise dropping some melta in your assualt squads for flamers. If you're willing to make some more concesions, I'd say take a Dread with blood talons.

But if you're really stubborn about not changing your current list, just gather as many assualt squads as you can and bolt pistol the blob to death. Then you have a softer target to assualt the next turn.

And what ratio is acceptable in this respect? Dropping meltas is all well and good, but meltas can do things to infantry, and flamers can't do anything to tanks. Parking lots and/or mech lists are all too common, and I wish to be prepared.

schadenfreude wrote:You don't need flamers against blob IG, but you do need melta guns to take down vendettas and heavy support that is most likely artillery or tanks.

2 squads of assault marines=50 attacks on the charge 55% cause a wound=28 wounds on the charge. 16 bolt pistols and 4 melta guns should inflict 3 casualties even if the blob is in cover and went to ground. Three casualties will reduce the size of the IG blob to 28 when it takes 28 wounds. Every guardsman takes a wound and 2/3 of them die. 2/3 of the power weapons will die, and there is a 66% chance the commissar is among the dead which will result in the loss of suborn. On average all that will remain at I3 is about 7 guardsmen, 4/12 power weapon attacks (1.3 live power weapons), and the BA player still has 6 power fist swings as follow up.

Your math is a bit off. 16 bolt pistols & 4 MG = ~3 dead IG after GtG 3+ cover saves; so that's right. 50 regular attacks = 33 hits = 21.78 wounds = 14.37 more dead after armor saves. IG swing back with 15 power weapon attacks, killing 2.5 marines (unless Straken's in the neighborhood, in which case it's 3.33). Nine regular IG swing, doing .5 of a wound after wounds, saves, etc. Two fists swing killing 3.36 IG. So that's usually 3 or 3.83 dead marines, depending on whether Straken's giving them counterattack. Call it 3. Fists kill another 3.36. The following round the BA do around 12 wounds at I4 before armor saves, which is enough to start chewing power weapons, and the combat's largely in the bag. They may lose 1-2 more.

So two full BA squads, positioned to both be able to get the charge, both shoot all their guns, and not lose any attacking models due to bad terrain rolls or anything, will deal with a 30 block pretty handily. Of course, if there's a second block positioned to counter charge, or Straken, you're probably meat, though you should be able to finish off the first squad. If the first squad is 40 strong, you probably won't finish it off before the second unit kills you.

What complicates things, of course, is if you've taken some casualties on the way in. Or if your pistol shots cause him to remove some of the closest models, reducing the number of models you get into attack range, or forcing a long difficult terrain roll. If you've lost 5-6 guys before you hit, or if one of your units can't get in due to difficult terrain, you're in trouble. A lot of the time if you're close enough to get everyone into charge range, you're also close enough for him to move up and First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, which if he gets everyone in range (which is tricky) will kill about 5 assault marines, all told, which is enough to swing the fight. With the loss of those 5, you're looking at 2.336 dead IG from shooting, 10.6 IG dead on the charge, leaving 18 IG to swing back, who kill 3.5 marines. Fists kill 3.36. Next round the marines kill only around 7 IG at I4, leaving the power weapons intact, and the IG kill around 3 more marines, possibly finishing off one squad of BA. Fists kill around 2 more. Third round of combat, 9 wounds before saves means the power weapons start going down. You've won again, but in this case you've lost around 11-12 marines, which isn't nearly as good a situation as the first charge, with two intact squads only suffering 4-5 casualties between them.

Still, it's good to know that if you can get the positioning for that ideal 20 marines on 30 IG charge, you'll beat them down.

33 hits=27.5 wounds not 22. I did my math with the FC bonus. 33 S5 hits V T3=27.5 wounds. As soon as the number of wounds>the number of guardsmen power weapons and commissars die leaving a toothless shattered power blob. At that point it doesn't matter that 1/3 of the guardsmen will make their armor saves.

FRSRF isn't as big of a deal against FNP assault marines. The number of shots goes from 18 to 36 shots needed to drop an assault marine.

Being outnumbered by IG combined with the IG player being required to base new models with their 6" move whenever possible means the IG player is forced to help the BA player to get more assault marines in.

The combination of speed, FNP, and wounding guardsmen on 2+ with FC is a nasty combination against powerblob. As long as the BA player doesn't do anything foolish that gets his priests killed a good BA player should be able to slaughter a good powerblob IG player.

Devastator squad with 4x Heavy Bolters?

From the looks of it, most of your assault units are going to get bogged down and take a number of casualties to a blob, if not get swallowed whole. You'd have to invest more points than the target blob, basically. And since any good foot guard player will take more than one, you're going to get painted in a corner.

With the self restriction of no vehicles, you're going to have trouble with any swarm, really, it looks. Either you need to focus on anti-horde and drop some meltas for flamers, or take the long range guns. HBs can whittle down the enemy before you engage, making success more likely.

So, three options:
-flamers
-HBs
-not DSing and focusing everything on one blob at a time, so you can take enough out at I4 to minimize casualties.

:-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases... 'course, not really a drop element...

schadenfreude wrote:The combination of speed, FNP, and wounding guardsmen on 2+ with FC is a nasty combination against powerblob. As long as the BA player doesn't do anything foolish that gets his priests killed a good BA player should be able to slaughter a good powerblob IG player.

Ah; your prior post made no mention of a priest.

On the whole, I'd still put my money on the horde IG army over a JP BA army, though the priests look to make a big difference.

pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

:-) Pretty much... My "Airborne" list includes Recon elements like the the Baal for that reason... Mind, I have beaten good powerblobs with the BA, but the "just charge them" line of thought will get you killed... Drop pods with beacons, Assault Squads with Priests and the Vanguard Vets all coming in close to the blobs are good against most things, but just too many bodies in there to kill at once...

prussia59 wrote:
And what ratio is acceptable in this respect? Dropping meltas is all well and good, but meltas can do things to infantry, and flamers can't do anything to tanks. Parking lots and/or mech lists are all too common, and I wish to be prepared.

I've found that 1 out of 3 squads being armed with flamers is sufficent to still give the anti tank needed for a competitive game while still being able to handle horde.

Would one unit of deep striking honor guard kitted all with flamers be enough?

The theme of a jump army would almost always include.

Assault marines

Priests

At least one honor guard or sanguinary guard for the banner.

A librarian HQ

From there lists will vary, but the other likely possibilities include.

The Sanguinor, Dante, or Asteroth

More Honor Guard or Sanguinary Guard

Scout Bikes.

None of those units are bad against powerblob, with the lowest performing probably being sanguinary guard.

A key advantage of a pure jump list is the ability for every unit to deep strike or outflank and the entire army being vehicle free makes anti vehicle weapons overpriced overkill. Vehicles make an army a hybrid army, and dev squads cause the list to loose the dynamic synergy of an entire army being able to deep strike/outflank. Mephiston can't deep strike.

Next topic: Footprint

My 2,500 Ard boys list had a model count of 79 with no vehicles:50 assault marines, 5SG, 20 scout bikes, 2 priests, Libby, and Sanguinor=79 models

2 Powerblobs of 30 each with commissars +2 PCS+CCS=77 models

The footprint of a 2,500 point jump list is 2 models less than a pair of power blobs and the associated command squads (about 800 points). The footprint of most jump armies is about 1/3 the size of an IG power blob, and they move twice as fast.

Double the speed and 1/3 the foot print=absolutely no excuse for the BA player to be outmaneuvered. The game should be 600 or more points of BA with priest bonus charging 300 points of powerblob.

ElCheezus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

This thread has turned into "insult the guy in third person like he is not here or is an idiot not worth talking to." What gives.

At any rate, I strive to be a purist. Why? Not going all out, but having a couple tanks (as you suggest) merely leaves my army not unified, with half presenting juicy targets for every single antitank gun the enemy has, and the other being mopped up because its support was already wiped.

Do I ds versus a powerblob list?

If so, do I drop out of rapid fire range, or close enough to melta tanks or flame blobs?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

prussia59 wrote:Would one unit of deep striking honor guard kitted all with flamers be enough?

It should be depending on how many points you are playing. I'd go with giving 1 assualt squad flamers too if it's over 1500 points.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I have had no luck in getting responses to this list in the army list forum, so, though it is against etiquette, I will present it here (thank you for your patience):

HQ

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Blood Lance, Unleash Rage

Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, 4X Flamers, Company Standard - 200 pts

Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, 4X Flamers, Company Standard - 200 pts



Troops

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235



Elites

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts



Fast Attack

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Stormshield - 210 pts

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Stormshield - 210 pts




The idea is to deep strike everything. The librarians will run with the assault squads, boosting their combat potential, and providing cover if necessary. The VV will, of course, HI, preventing scary shooty units from shooting or preventing scary assault units from charging. The PF and SS is there for the Insurance against MCs and the increased likelihood that they will survive the first round of combat. The HG flame squads will drop next to hordes, if there are any, or versus mech they will flame the units that pile out of vehicles popped by the assault squads. The assault squads will drop in a location suitable for popping vehicles or, if there aren't any, prepping for a multiple assault to help the vets.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I apologise. I made an assumption based upon imperfect evidence. However, in my defense, the wording of the rule is very clear and doesn't really leave any room for interpretation. Regardless, I concede that whilst he WAS cheating he may have been, to all intents and purposes, unaware of it.

L. Wrex

And, any response to the question?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Well any time an IG player goes up against any type of SM, he takes marine killer weapons, e.g.; power weapons, melta guns, plasmas, tanks, and anything with low AP. If you dont deep strike and you dont go first, expect of world of hurt to hit your lines because FNP dont protect from wounds that dont allowe armor saves. My brother plays IG and this is what i constantly see. And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot which means no covers saves and everybody in your arms aside from heroes, terms, and sang guards will take instant wounds. Thatll dwindle your army so when you do assault his numbers beat your better fighting skill

Everything you just said is completely wrong!

Lumbering Behemoth is not POTMS, you may fire one additional weapon to your main gun, even if your main gun is ordnance. It does not, however, allow you to fire after moving 12, and the chances of a LRBT actually moving 12 are slim anyway.

Where are you pulling no cover saves from str 8 ap 3?

In your drop army, do you have an objection to drop pods? Drop pods with a beacon are a huge part of my drop list, but I see you aren't using them at all... Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice... The Librarian DN with the cover save power and say, Blood Lance or the "I still have a Jump Pack" power can be annoyingly devastating against tightly packed enemies or IG parking lots... Sometimes it will even survive :-) Playing FT's, I tend to use the DC and the DC DN's a lot more, and they are unholy terrors against a lot of IG builds...

Going straight out against an IG force, I might suggest looking at the flamer pistols for the SGT's at least (Assault Squads), and possibly the SP's... I also like a lot more power weapons on the Vanguard and the SP's, but that's just me I guess... Yes, a bit of a waste against the IG at times, but no save is better than 1/3 saves... Using your mobility and dancing around whittling his squads down and hitting on an unexpected side where he doesn't have his PW's bunched up will increase your odds quite a bit...

OK.

I think we need the BA players to stop talking, and the Guard players to start.

For my blobs, there are 2 things I fear: Flamers and Blood talons.

I believe Ailaros said something like it would take 4 heavy bolters 20 turns to dig a blob squad out of their 4+ cover, so negating that cover is number one priority.

So, Baal predators (problem: delivery) are a good option, as are deep striking flamer squads (problem: danger of deep striking), and furiosos are horrors IF you can deliver them without some opportunistic veterans with meltaguns come and asplode it.

prussia59 wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

This thread has turned into "insult the guy in third person like he is not here or is an idiot not worth talking to." What gives.

At any rate, I strive to be a purist. Why? Not going all out, but having a couple tanks (as you suggest) merely leaves my army not unified, with half presenting juicy targets for every single antitank gun the enemy has, and the other being mopped up because its support was already wiped.

Do I ds versus a powerblob list?

If so, do I drop out of rapid fire range, or close enough to melta tanks or flame blobs?

No intent to insult, even indirectly. Dropping melta for flamers had been mentioned and seemed to be shot down a couple times. I see that the proper ratio was asked, but nobody answered. I don't know myself, or I would have been more helpful. Either way, those are still the three options, the way I see it. The list posted looks like a good start for flamers, I tyhink.

Most blobs I build include MeltaBombs, so even a Dread variant might not last long. It will tarpit a while, but will eventually go down.

No problem.

As for the dreadnought, Jaon, I am all too aware of the awesome damage a furioso could inflict on infantry of any sort. However, with no easy means of delivery, and it being part of an infantry list and being one of the only vehicle targets presented, means it will most probably esplode before it does any good. Will it draw fire? Maybe, but meltas and lascannons frying marines is OK by me: when I have lots more where they came from.

Sooo, yes, I believe flamers is the only efficient option. Either on ds-ing infantry (ds danger is less w/ doa), or baal preds (which do have av 13, and can scout, but, well, has the same problem as the dreadnought.)

Thanks, all.

what are power blobs?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot which means no covers saves and everybody in your arms aside from heroes, terms, and sang guards will take instant wounds.

What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

Lumbering Behemoth does two things:
A LRBT moving 6" or less can fire one extra weapon in addition to the main cannon.
If it tries to move more than 6", rather than moving up to 12" like every other vehicle, it moves 6+D6" max and can't fire any weapons.

And the battle cannon is not indirect fire ordnance, so you should still get cover saves from it. Sounds like you guys just need to re-read the rules and make sure you're actually playing 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaon wrote:OK.

I think we need the BA players to stop talking, and the Guard players to start.

I think this rule should apply universally to the whole forum.

I believe Ailaros said something like it would take 4 heavy bolters 20 turns to dig a blob squad out of their 4+ cover, so negating that cover is number one priority.

So, Baal predators (problem: delivery) are a good option, as are deep striking flamer squads (problem: danger of deep striking), and furiosos are horrors IF you can deliver them without some opportunistic veterans with meltaguns come and asplode it.

I would never trust any math Ailaros posits.

Anyway, Baal predators are quite easy to deliver since they are fast vehicles with outflank. A flamestorm/sponsonHF Baal predator is one of the scariest things I face on a regular basis. Goodbye platoons and heavy weapon teams. The danger of deep striking is also overstated; they only scatter 1D6, so mishaps are very unlikely.

Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple) and the cruise speed is 6+d6 rather than 12 so no firing at cruise speed.

I agree about flamers, man they put the hurt to my IG infantry. Move up a couple of squads flame the blob and assault and it will get real bad real fast. Your only concern is if the IG player can get more forces into the fray during his turn.

Without a turn of FRFSRF or being able to get the power weapons in range IG blob squads aren't worth alot. If you can manage the maneuver (which with jet packs is possible) charge him on the opposite side from the power weapons and laugh.

ansacs wrote:Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple) and the cruise speed is 6+d6 rather than 12 so no firing at cruise speed.

Sounds like you are getting it wrong too, seems you are implying that it can always fire all weapons (except at cruising speed), that is wrong. The effect is pretty much that it makes the turret weapon a defensive weapon and that you have to roll 6+d6 for cruising speed. That's it.
This:

(notice the s for multiple)

Doesn't mean anything.

pchappel wrote:.. Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice..

Uhm... what? Pods still roll for deviation. Drop pods are also not really the point with drop angels.

pchappel wrote::-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases...

Gah, horrible advice. Adding a few vehicles to a DoA army is silly. They will die horribly in one turn and do nothing. Dev squads can actually work well for jump BA, adds more bodies and some long range firepower, but heavy bolters blow, go all missile launchers

schadenfreude wrote:The entire point of playing BA jump marines is so you can annihilate a 225-250 point squad by hitting them with 470 points of jump marines.

This. Consentrate your forces, choose your engagements


Against an army such as Ailaros', with almost no longe range firepower, you should start on the board. You can choose the engagements and stack the odds in your favor. Against a shooty list with one, maybe two blobs, dropping in can still be valuable, but in most cases, I'm guessing it will be better to start on the table here too, as those blobs make very nice bubblewrap against DS too.