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I take it you don't count the sponsens on the Baal? I typically us HB's, but if you were hunting something close to the board edge, you could come in 6" and light up a big squad with 3 templates...

Back to the OP... I use a LOT of the flame pistols on the SGT's, Priests, etc... Just to cover the bases mostly, but I usually get a few shots every game against most things... Almost never "great", but it does help a lot...

schadenfreude wrote:Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.

Not really, that S6 can insta-kill heavy weapon teams and is pretty good at popping rear armor.

Convential wisdom says to take the same weapon twice for each assault squad. I used to run double melter until I faced off versus a nid horde army. Since then i've been running the flamer/melter combo. If you are simply tailoring your list to fight hordes then run two flamers and a flamer pistol. For most of us we want a balanced list that can do well versus all comers. Against mech (as opposed to blob) I still have two melters per squad (meltagun & infernus pistol). I tend to overlap units so if needed I can focus fire on a tank. Basically if I want to wreck/destroy a tank it's going to happen.

Back to the main subject - DoA can do a number on blobs... They get one turn to shoot then you're in their proverbial grill. You want an uber squad of VV with storm shields to juice them. It's all about racking up as many wounds as possible as quickly as you can. Blob ig has no real defense versus VV as far as I'm aware. Basically your tying down the blobs so they can't shoot the next turn. Assault dreads with talons as noted are your best friends versus blob. Again if you can get the walker into melée the blob is tied up the rest of the game.

About the reserve game - like I said if the guard player goes into reserve the odds are in favor of the DoA army. I've had my share of games where the majority of my army shows up on turn 3 opting not to reroll unsuccessful reserves. Basically it all comes down to the dice but the odds are in favor of BA.

pchappel wrote:I take it you don't count the sponsens on the Baal? I typically us HB's, but if you were hunting something close to the board edge, you could come in 6" and light up a big squad with 3 templates...

Back to the OP... I use a LOT of the flame pistols on the SGT's, Priests, etc... Just to cover the bases mostly, but I usually get a few shots every game against most things... Almost never "great", but it does help a lot...

A baal with flame sponsoons is nearing the price of 3 land speeders, and 2 land speeders can pack 4 heavy flamers outgunning the baal for far less points. Also moving6" when insiide flamer range is dangerous, which is why fast vehicles should stick with a single flame attack..


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Terminus wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.

Not really, that S6 can insta-kill heavy weapon teams and is pretty good at popping rear armor.

Tl assault cannons are s6 rending and in plentyful supply in a mech ba list. Ap3 flamers are for killing meq, not geq. Advocating ap3 flamers against guard is like telling chaos players thousand sons ap3 boltguns are superior to sonic blasters when shooting geq.

Except we weren't talking about mech BA lists, and designing a balanced list, not a tailored ROFLSTOMP list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

When I design an army, I take the approach of balancing flexibility, redundancy, and synergy both amongst the units in my army and within the units. Specialized units require similar specialized units for redundancy, and different specialized units for flexibility, whereas generalists emphasize flexibility and require other generalist units for redundancy.

Units like Grey Hunters and Chaos Space Marines do well with twinned Melta Guns because they are generalists, being reasonably well in close combat and anti-infantry shooting: the Melta Guns give them integral flexibility. You don't lose large amounts of anti-infantry firepower by taking dual Melta Guns and forgoing half-and-half, or complete Flamers.

However, Assault Squads are more specialized, so Flamers represent a significant investment in anti-infantry firepower, and as this thread suggests there are times you simply need that firepower to soften up mobs of troops for mopping up with close combat. However, you likewise cannot lose the anti-tank power of the Melta Gun. The combination means that you're less likely to lose a significant chunk of either kind of firepower if a unit is destroyed, and you will have a weapon for every target. Furthermore by spreading them throughout your units, you give yourself the opportunity to more efficiently deliver your firepower: Rather than firing two Melta Guns at a tank, you can fire one, and then maintain or adjust targets according to whether it survives the first.

Terminus wrote: Even with an Astropath, IG have a 66% chance of rolling something on the board 2nd turn to the Angels' 75%. Unless DoA allows re-rolls of successful reserve rolls as well? That would help in that case.

DoA only allows rerolls of failed reserves tests. But the rerolls aren't required. So a BA player who wanted to keep units in reserve for some reason could drop to the standard 50% in turn 2 by just not taking rerolls.

Terminus wrote:Except we weren't talking about mech BA lists, and designing a balanced list, not a tailored ROFLSTOMP list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

And that's the main reason why I don't take a single flamer in my jump army, it's built for tournament play not being tailored to stomp specific lists. Most opponents are mechanized MEQ, and I usually find that I need every melta gun that I have. The only army that I have a difficult time where flamers would make my life a lot easier is heavy genestealer lists, but even then the lack of melta guns would make my life difficult against heavy tyanid warrior lists. Cutting melta guns for flamers would make life difficult against a mechanized army especially mech IG where every single squad has a Chimera. Cutting meltas for flamers to use against GEQ is insane because DOA BA can kill them without flamers as long as we get off the charge and throw enough assault marines at them (about double the value of the blob)

After a complete massacre in round 1 my jump list went to one of the top tables at the LA ard boys finals, and then got knocked down to the middle of the pack with a tie and minor victory after I faced tyanids twice in a row. Flamers would have helped with the genestealers, but the loss of melta would have hurt against warriors, shrieks, and TMC. Looking back on it the melta guns really did help to save my bacon. Most important issue was actually the quality of my opponents. Luck was not an issue as it was lukewarm for both sides in all games, so it all came down to mistakes, and none of my opponents made any major mistakes to exploit. The net result of 2 good players, lukewarm luck, and no major mistakes by either side=A tie or minor victory . In either game the presence of flamers would have been mitigated by opponents that don't make simple costly mistakes like clustering genestealers in the presence of flame throwers. Even after 2 rough experiences with nids at the LA ard boys finals I just don't see a place in a jump list for flamers in a tournament list where nobody has any idea which army they will face.

You don't obviously know how to handle Nidz yet still espouse double meltas. Amazing.

That comment comes close to trolling.

It would be much more helpful to everyone, and more polite to that poster, if you would explain further how you use your flamers against Tyranids.

Okay sorry for my frustration. Like I said if you want to build a balanced DoA army then simply loading up on as much melta as possible is not the right direction in my opinion. Mech is very popular but even though the new Tyranids are generally perceived as uncompetitive there is always the chance you might have to play against them in a tournament. Meltas are not worth there cost versus an army that has no armor. Sure it's the best answer to mech - we all know that here. Simply relying upon close combat to beat down Nidz is risky. What I see when playing in tournaments is the better Nid players will bubble wrap their monstrous creatures with gaunts and genestealers. If you assault the gaunts then they will counter charge you with the big nidz like Trygons and Tyrants. Flamers let you open a path through the bubble wrap so you can charge the big bugs. I figured this out after narrowingly beating a Nid army. Since then I haven't had much problems.

We are talking meta game now. The most popular armies are mechanized, and space marines. Ap5 flamers don't do much against space marines or mech. They are purely anti horde so the question is between nids, orks, and IG does the threat of horde demand melta guns be dropped for flamers.

Going against horde without flamers is difficult, but possible. It just requires the BA player to outmaneuver the horde. Going against a heavy walker list such as chaozilla, master of the forge codex list, or BA dread list without melta is an absolute nightmare. I would rather go up against horde with no flamers than a 6 Ironclads or a BA dread list with some of my potential melta slots filled with flamers.

It's always a no win chose the lesser of 2 evils when deciding what to cut in an all comers list. Horde IG scares me a whole lot less than MEQ, Mech, and Walker lists.

Bear in mind that flamers actually do perfectly respectable damage to marines; though not to FNP marines or terminators. A meltagun shooting at a marine outside cover averages .56 dead marines. A flamer only needs to cover three marines to equal that. Two meltaguns shooting at a squad of marines average 1 dead if there's no cover. Two flamers each hitting 6 marines average two dead even with cover, and can get even more if the marine rolles poor on his saves.

Not disputing that walkers and mech lists require you to bring significant quantities of melta, but it's really them that necessitate it; not the marines.

I could have explained meq better. I wasn't trying to say melta is better for gunning down meq, I was saying flamers under perform.

2 melta= 1 dead meq
2 flamer=2 dead meq
That is a net gain of a single meq

Against meq the squads anti vehicle firepower is traded for a dead 16 point marine when the meq squad is close enough it is about to be on the wrong end of a rolfstomp because its is going to get charged by ba.

1 dead meq per special weapon, that is all flamers do against meq when they hit 6 of em.

When you add cover to the equation, flamers outperform meltas by a mile, and plasmaguns as well. Then when you consider variance, the flamers are superior even without cover. Don't fall into the trap so many do and confuse statistical average with actual outcome. One meltagun will kill maximum one space marine. One flamer hitting six could possibly, however unlikely, kill all six (~20% odds of killing two, etc.).

However, with Blood Angels now comprising a very significant portion of the MEQ targets, you need to be able to handle FNP. And mech is far more prominent than horde. A few landspeeders with a heavy flamer should cover your template needs. And BA always have the advantage of being able to add a flamer pistol (or infernus + melta/flamer). The hand flamer may kind of suck, but most targets you would fire it at are T3 and/or 6+ armor.

I thought this thread was about how to fight blob. Anyways looks like the arguments against the flamer are not that strong actually. Dreadnaught heavy armies tend to be quite rare, I wouldn't design my armies to beat them. That said they have enough problems of their own I don't see them as a huge threat to a DoA list.

This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Regarding the flamer issue: they are effective, regardless of what type of list or army you are fighting and it is certainly not sane to replace all your flamers into meltas for fear of tanks and LR.

To be back on topic:

-A proper DoA list should have libbies. Im sorry but I dont think dante is that good. Scattering on a d6 is good enough, taking dante is being greedy.

One libby should have sword and shield for dealing threats that are tough to kill. The other one should have unleash rage and another power of your choosing. Unleash rage allows you to re roll to hits and assuming you have an honor guard nearby, furious charge allow you to wound on 2's.

-Honor guards. if possible always take 2.

I kit out the Honorguards with jump packs: 1 HG will have 4 plasmas - this will be my MEQ killers and Transport killers and if a rare opportunity presents itself, jump to the rear and shoot rear armor. The 2nd guard will have 4 meltaguns and 4 flamers. This squad is pretty self explanatory, and will wreck IG power blobs any time of the day.

With all these options I present to you. I am baffled at how you will struggle with blobs. Thanks to mobility you will always fight on your own terms.

Also forget tanks. Dont bring anything with an AV. Land speeders, Baals or whatever. Use devs. kit them out with las cannons or MLs- they will deal with armored threats and have resilience to survive shooting.

Terminus wrote:Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Where in the rules does it say that? The infernus pistol rule? Not in the armory section, that's for sure.

prussia59 wrote:

Terminus wrote:Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Where in the rules does it say that? The infernus pistol rule? Not in the armory section, that's for sure.

Want to think that through one more time? Is there such a thing as a melta-slot?

Yuber wrote:This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Some BA jump players DOA because they can DOA regardless if it's a good idea or not. Having the option to do something often tempts players making mistakes that are as tactically sound as deep striking a land raider.

I rarely DOA myself, but there are some times when DOA is an excellent idea such as Dawn of War when the IG player choses to go 2nd, and other scenarios where DOA is a terrible idea such as Pitched Battle when the IG player choses to go 2nd.

The thread has gone off topic man times. What is really needed against IG (or any other army) is proper deployment and maneuvering into superior assault positions. Those 2 components should be all a BA army really needs to take down a power blob.

schadenfreude wrote:

Yuber wrote:This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Some BA jump players DOA because they can DOA regardless if it's a good idea or not. Having the option to do something often tempts players making mistakes that are as tactically sound as deep striking a land raider.

I rarely DOA myself, but there are some times when DOA is an excellent idea such as Dawn of War when the IG player choses to go 2nd, and other scenarios where DOA is a terrible idea such as Pitched Battle when the IG player choses to go 2nd.

The thread has gone off topic man times. What is really needed against IG (or any other army) is proper deployment and maneuvering into superior assault positions. Those 2 components should be all a BA army really needs to take down a power blob.

I know what you are saying. Everytime I play a DoA noob, I chuckle evilly simply because they put everything in reserve when just moving plain forward is simply better. It becomes even funnier when they include dante which more often than not affects their decision to DOA or not.

When you add cover to the equation, flamers outperform meltas by a mile, and plasmaguns as well. Then when you consider variance, the flamers are superior even without cover. Don't fall into the trap so many do and confuse statistical average with actual outcome. One meltagun will kill maximum one space marine. One flamer hitting six could possibly, however unlikely, kill all six (~20% odds of killing two, etc.).

You are writing right out of my soul.

So many true words...

The flamer also helps out a bit with providing more hits since the squad has bolt pistols. Consider a unit of ten with a flamer and nine bolt pistols (assuming the flamer can touch four enemy models):

Four automatic hits from flamer
Six hits from bolt pistols
Total = 10 hits

Now consider a squad of ten tactical Marines with a special weapon and heavy weapon (sergeant has a bolt pistol):

17 shots from rapid firing bolters and bolt pistol,
Roughly 10 hits

Without the flamer the assault would only generate 6 hits with their bolt pistols. To me that is one of the inherent advantages of taking a flamer. You'll probably only be able to shoot once so it's best to optimize the number of S4 hits. Unless the guardsmen have carapace armor the AP5 bolt pistol/flamer is going to drop some guardsmen. Against blob weight of attacks can be critical.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The flamer also helps out a bit with providing more hits since the squad has bolt pistols. Consider a unit of ten with a flamer and nine bolt pistols (assuming the flamer can touch four enemy models):

Four automatic hits from flamer
Six hits from bolt pistols
Total = 10 hits

Now consider a squad of ten tactical Marines with a special weapon and heavy weapon (sergeant has a bolt pistol):

17 shots from rapid firing bolters and bolt pistol,
Roughly 10 hits

Without the flamer the assault would only generate 6 hits with their bolt pistols. To me that is one of the inherent advantages of taking a flamer. You'll probably only be able to shoot once so it's best to optimize the number of S4 hits. Unless the guardsmen have carapace armor the AP5 bolt pistol/flamer is going to drop some guardsmen. Against blob weight of attacks can be critical.

So figure 12 bp hits for 2 squads. Do those extra flamer hits matter that much if the unit in question is about to take 50 I5 S5 WS4 cc attacks followed by 6 S9 WS4 power fists?

I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

schadenfreude wrote: followed by 6 S8 WS4 power fists?

Fixed that for you

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

Why not?

2 blobs+2pcs>2 assault squads+ priest in points.

The ba are 1/3 the size and have twice as much speed as the blobs.

They are called blobs for a good reason: They are slow, fat, and difficult to maneuver.

Assault squads attempting to oumaneuver blobs is like watching a WW2 dogfight between fighters and bombers.

That's just it really. Whether you deep strike or jump across the table your assault squads are going to draw some fire. I can't remember the last time I ever had two full assault squads charge the same unit. It'd be awesome, just dont think it's all that feasible in actual practice.

Grundz wrote:

schadenfreude wrote: followed by 6 S8 WS4 power fists?

Fixed that for you

But if there is a Sanguinary Priest within 6" or he failed his pre-game Red Thirst test, S9 would be correct.

The good thing about the Flamer, other than hitting multiple models, is that it hits before even I10 can strike. So, yes, the extra S4 AP5 hits are well worth it even if you plan to charge the target unit.

schadenfreude wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

Why not?

2 blobs+2pcs>2 assault squads+ priest in points.

You are not making any damn sense whatsoever.

First, the PCSs are completely different units doing completely different things (like slagging your armor) in a completely different part of the table. How do they figure into the equation?

Second, you are still dedicating two assault units and a character (about 500 points) against one ~225 point blob.

Third, by doing the above you are exposing yourself to counter-shooting from the whole IG gunline and maybe even counter-assault by the other blob. Expect to lose most of your attack force, if not all of it.

Fact remains, multiple charges are a rare opportunity/occurrence.