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I really like the lrbt. Its a good tank, and does great against space wolves as they depend on krak, living lightning, and mechanized melta to slag av14, and none of those work well against a lrbt. Mech melta works great on land raiders and battlewagons because they come to the meltas, while a lrbt goes away from mech melta while the rest of the army pops transports(ig is good at popping transports). The 2 best ways to take out a lrbt is bike or jump using speed to melta or cc rear armor, and ba is great at doing that. Lrbt are also stuck in direct fire only, so against ba a basilisk is a much better choice.

Ailoros' math isn't far off. 4 hb cranking out 12 hb shots at bs4 will only drop 3&1/3 guardsmen in cover, at bs 3 the number drops to 2&1/2.

Flame baal preds are over rated against guard. If the template catches more than 8 the ig player is doing something wrong. 8 dead guardsmen isn't the end of the world, a blob with a commisar will pass morale and can procede to return fire with melta guns that are definately within 6".

Blood talons are over rated against ig. It is impossible for duel blood talons to get rerolls to hit as liby dreads are stuck with a force weapon. 1/3 of all swings miss, so assuming every hit wounds 4 attacks will yield an average of about 7 kills, and 3 attacks will yield about 5 kills. With average rolls a bt dread will need 6 rounds of cc to eat a blob. While the blob can't hurt the dread in cc the dread has to make it past a lot of lc and melta to get to the blob.

Let's put a Furioso with a pair of Blood Talons up against a blob of 50 guardsmen... Assume the dread charges the blob...

4 attacks = 3 hits & 3 die
3 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (5 dead total)
2 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (7 dead total)
2 more attacks = 1 hit & 1 dies (8 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (9 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (10 dead total)
1 more attack = miss; 1st round of carnage ends

The blob has nothing that can hurt the dreadnaught in close combat so you have tied up a squad equal to roughly double the cost of the walker. Other units can charge the blob and help finish it off quickly. Even without support the dread should be able to kill off the entire blob in 4-5 rounds of melee.

OrionDisciple. wrote:what are power blobs?

See Ailaros.



Now, this may be a bit specific, but how far away from a blob should a deep striking flamer squad be placed to maximize flamer potential but not unnecessarily risk the squad?


@Illumini - glad to have someone reaffirm my distaste for vehicles in a DoA list. Are missile launchers really the way to go? Not lascannons? And, isn't there the danger of them getting blown off the board first turn as well? (As the opponent will have nothing else to shoot at?)


As for locator beacons, I am reluctant to include drop pods in the list because of the drop pod assault rule. However, what is the opinion on scout bikers? Or just scouts? The locator beacon plus the scout move could guarantee accuracy for a drop on one target. For capture and control missions, are sniper scouts a good option for holding objectives?

DoA that is all in on the Jump/Drop Troops is super cowboy, and very limited in it's ability. It is very one dimensional and armies with strong shooting such as Mech IG will shoot it to bits without trouble (tested the match 10 times). Horde style armies like Kan Wall Orks (which aren't even consider a top list anymore) and Tyranids will have very favorable matchups agaisnt it too. The list needs depth and support. I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops. The reason things like Predators are good is because you can always reserve them and they're still really good the turn they come on the table. Autolas Preds can move on 6" and shoot everything. Baal Preds are fast and can outflank. When you go first you have great shooting against some armies if you deploy them on the table. It also becomes a lot easier to deploy your troops on the table in relevant matchups (ie ones where it would be a strong consideration) because they have some support on their way across the table. It is a serious error to think that DoA BA must be played all drop. I thought like this before I finally caved and tried other things, and I'm finding a combination/hybrid to be much, much better.

ansacs wrote:Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple)

I don't know why everyone is getting it wrong either, but you're one of them. It can fire the main gun in addition to any other weapons it would be able to fire. If you stand still, that's all of them. If you move combat speed, you can only fire ONE weapon as normal + the main gun due to the Lumbering Behemoth rule.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Let's put a Furioso with a pair of Blood Talons up against a blob of 50 guardsmen... Assume the dread charges the blob...

4 attacks = 3 hits & 3 die
3 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (5 dead total)
2 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (7 dead total)
2 more attacks = 1 hit & 1 dies (8 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (9 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (10 dead total)
1 more attack = miss; 1st round of carnage ends

The blob has nothing that can hurt the dreadnaught in close combat so you have tied up a squad equal to roughly double the cost of the walker. Other units can charge the blob and help finish it off quickly. Even without support the dread should be able to kill off the entire blob in 4-5 rounds of melee.

Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

Also, your maths are a little off, favouring the dread. 10 is possible, but I'd figure it to be more around 5. 2/3 (to hit) * 5/6 (to wound) = 5/9 chance of a wound for each attack. Adding in a series, W = 5/9x + (5/9)^2 x + (5/9)^3 x + . . . = 5. Obviously we deal with whole numbers, so expect result to vary, but that's my maths on average number of wounds in this case.


I think the appropriate range to deepstrike with flamers would be far enough to get the shoot and assault. You don't want to assault a full blob without flaming them, and you want to make sure to get the charge. So I'd say either don't DS them in a horde matchup, or DS more than 12" away so they can't assault you. You might get shot, but you should be able to get to them the next turn. If they run away to stay out of range, then you can use another group to pin them, claim your objective while they're too afraid, or just chase them around for a while.

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

This isn't just to fight Dreads and walkers. Priests givr rerolls on a lot of attacks. Eviscerators and MBs give the blob a way to threaten vehicles in general, instead of just infantry. None of it is wasted in an all comers list.

If the dread focuses a round on the priest, that's a whole round where the MBs get another chance to take it down.

Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Caffran9 wrote: I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops.

But then you're talking ard boyz pts level, right? I can't get more than 3 preds into my 1750 mech list unless I want to run a pred-wall list. And 6 preds is of course a different beast from 1-2.

ElCheezus wrote:Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

The OP isn't fighting Ailaros is he? I've never seen a blob with a priest (except for Ailaros' reports of course), and there are plenty of reasons for that. The eviscerator priest is expensive, and against anything that fights back, he is very dead. He wouldn't stand a chance against any dread.

prussia59 wrote:Are missile launchers really the way to go? Not lascannons? And, isn't there the danger of them getting blown off the board first turn as well? (As the opponent will have nothing else to shoot at?)

You can give them a priest, upping their survivability pretty heavily. Also, remember that you don't HAVE to deepstrike. Do it when you think you can gain by doing it, but remember that 40+ marines with FNP can often be more effective in a combined charge across the table.

Missile launcher is superior to lascannon because of cost and flexibility. If you find yourself struggling with too many enemy transports, you can take one lascannon in the unit and get that Bs5 S9 shot to add some punch to the units. 3x5 devastators with 3x4 missile launchers + a priest (and maybe camo-cloak scouts to hold home objective) would make a decent firebase for a jump list. It is a huge bonus if you can crack enemy transports before your assault marines get there, allowing them to punch the squishy parts instead of wasting time against armour.

Terminus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

There are 3 special weapon slots on a power blob, and a good chance they are melta so when you say engage the walkers on their own terms I am going to interpret that as metla the BT dread in the face. Guardsmen don't need to place them self within charge range of the dread, but if the dread places it's self within charge range of guardsmen it's also within melta range.

Think about what a melta pen does to a BT dread.

1:Stunned, can't move or charge next turn, guardsman will proceed to fire more melta at it.
2:Weapon destroyed ie a blood talon, -1A, and most importantly a single blood talon no longer gains any additional attacks. It's just a walker with a single str6 lighting claw.
3: Immobilized! Guardsmen laugh at the now helpless dread that can no longer charge, move 1" away from it, and begin to pee on it.
4:Wrecked.
5&6: Assplodes with a decent chance of killing some guardsmen.

The entire IG army is loaded with melta guns, so it's not like they a are a bunch of helpless kittens.

Illumini wrote:

pchappel wrote:.. Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice..

Uhm... what? Pods still roll for deviation. Drop pods are also not really the point with drop angels.

pchappel wrote::-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases...

Gah, horrible advice. Adding a few vehicles to a DoA army is silly. They will die horribly in one turn and do nothing. Dev squads can actually work well for jump BA, adds more bodies and some long range firepower, but heavy bolters blow, go all missile launchers

Yes, the Pods roll, but even dropping right on top of enemy troops, just move enough to not be on them... I was talking about the follow up waves of Assault troops and VVs . With the DoA re-roll, you should see a lot of things coming in on turn 2 riding in on thebeacon right up against whatever you are parking your drop pod near...

You really think that a flanking Baal Pred will do nothing? Interesting, mine almost always do a fair amount of damage against most things... Only time they've failed horribly is when I tried "non standard" things with them.. Even if they are just keeping the IG blobs from moving along the board edges, or taking out support units in the backfield.

All ML is "OK", probably more efficient in general, but I see a fair amount of "horde" builds locally... My Long Fangs especially use a 50/50 HB/ML mix, frankly I don't field Dev squads for my FT's... I just don't think that straight ML's will put enough shots downrage to put a dent in a blob as it runs towards you... :-) Mind, my IG "blobs" are a bit different than Aliros', I tend to use them as "bubble wrap" with lots of guns where his are the standard PW/Melta type. Really hard to kill off before they reach your lines or drop troops...

Terminus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

I have never fought blob with meltabombs or a priest with an eviscerator. The dread will surely insta gib the priest for a very easy kill point (thank you very much). It just sounded like a crutch response to be honest. DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.

All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

I'd imagine it deploys the Dreadnought like a bowling ball.

Pretty much.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Illumini wrote:

Caffran9 wrote: I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops.

But then you're talking ard boyz pts level, right? I can't get more than 3 preds into my 1750 mech list unless I want to run a pred-wall list. And 6 preds is of course a different beast from 1-2.

Nope, 2000pt. army. It varies between 5 and 6 Preds on if I'm running Vanguards or Honor guard as my CC rock. I don't have my stuff in front of me since I'm out of town, but it looks something like this:

Librarian: Jump Pack, Shield of Sanguinius, Uleash Rage
Honor Guard: Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 3x Storm Shield, 1x Powerfist, 1x Lightning Claw, 1x Power Wweapon

3x Priest: Jump Packs

10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist
10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist
10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist

Baal Predator
Baal Predator

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons
Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons
Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons

If I was going to drop down to 1750 I think the first thing I would try is to drop an Assault Squad and switch one of the autolas Preds over to a Baal Predator. That should end up at 1750 or so. I haven't gotten to test this against mech IG yet, but I've had good results against a couple of competitive SW, Tyranids, Orks, and codex SM builds. I sohuld be able to get in a bunch of games against IG this coming week

If you want a real tank storm it is easy to fit 3 baals and 3 preds and 4 razorbacks into 1750p.
And there is even some space for a furioso dread

Terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

prussia59 :

I really like that list you posted up. It looks like it's got plenty of melta for mech lists and enough flamers to give you the edge on horde lists.

As for where to drop your flamers if you deep strike them, it's really up to you. You could always play it safe with 7 inches, but I really recomend you get as close as 3 inches to make sure you get to use those flamers to full effect.

Thanks!

When I posted it on army lists, I got the suggestion to take down the number of 5-man squads. So, with that in mind, what do you think of the same list, but with 2X 10 man assault squads with 2X flamers each replacing the two honor guard? Adds more bodies. As well, as for where to deep strike them, as they have less mass flamers, it might be better just to stay out of charge range, and flame and charge the next turn.

Another option for the list would be replacing one 10 man assault squad with a devastator and a scout squad (devs with missile launchers.)

Thanks, all, for keeping this thread alive for me. It has been most informative and enlightening. (As short threads really can't be.)

I wouldn't run any devs as they don't work well with this type of list. Same thing with scouts. I like HG - I keep mine choppy though. I run my assault squads all with one melta and one flamer. Works very well so far .

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

Reserving is to the advantage of the 2nd player. If the doa player goes 2nd the reason is obvious. If the ig player goes 2nd reserving is a good idea if the ba player doa. 75% of the doa list deep strikes on turn 2. Then 66% of the ig rolls on and gets the advantage of deploying 2nd and shooting first. Furthermore the ba player has limited control of how and where his units are deployed. Some units will scatter outside the priests bubble, other units will roll a 1 on their run roll resulting in a clustered mass eating a large ignore armor ignore fnp pie.

If ba go first it is better to start off on the board. 24+2d6" of movement before ig rolls in will put ba in a superior position to a doa. Everybody is in priest range, shield of sanguinis range, and or turbo boosting scout bikes will be screening the ba army.

prussia59 wrote:Thanks!

When I posted it on army lists, I got the suggestion to take down the number of 5-man squads. So, with that in mind, what do you think of the same list, but with 2X 10 man assault squads with 2X flamers each replacing the two honor guard? Adds more bodies. As well, as for where to deep strike them, as they have less mass flamers, it might be better just to stay out of charge range, and flame and charge the next turn.

Another option for the list would be replacing one 10 man assault squad with a devastator and a scout squad (devs with missile launchers.)

Thanks, all, for keeping this thread alive for me. It has been most informative and enlightening. (As short threads really can't be.)

Switching out your honor guard for the assualt squads with flamers would be fine. I actually like the more bodies idea, despite the fact you get fewer flamers. That's how I'm running mine.

And I hadn't thought to much about deep striking them out of sight, and then flaming/assualting the next turn. That one really depends on where your opponent's horde is in relation to everything else in his/her army, but that is certainly a viable option (and more highly recomended if you're going to drop the honor guard for the assualt squads).

I'm going to agree with BloodThirSTAR and suggest that you not take devestators or scouts in your list, seeing as the whole rest of the army would be as mobile as it is.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

It's far more likely that both armies will gradually trickle in, making it a battle of attrition, which is what the IG does best. Even with an Astropath, IG have a 66% chance of rolling something on the board 2nd turn to the Angels' 75%. Unless DoA allows re-rolls of successful reserve rolls as well? That would help in that case.

In any case, we were discussing mech IG, but it's an even harder battle with blobs. Multi-charging is not really an option when there are at least as many blob squads as there are BA assault squads. If you land within assault range, not only are you eating a turn of firepower, you are then getting assaulted, denying you the extra attack and Furious Charge, which is the only hope you have of winning that combat.

@darkdm - and what is your opinion of BloodthirSTAR's approach to the problem, which is to put a flamer and a melta in every squad?

And, everyone else?

prussia59 wrote:@darkdm - and what is your opinion of BloodthirSTAR's approach to the problem, which is to put a flamer and a melta in every squad?

And, everyone else?

My IG roots come back to me and I say don't mix weapons. Mixing the weapons makes the squad more more useful aginst tanks and infantry than it would otherwise be if it had no such weapons, but not as effective against any one target like if it had two of the same weapon.

Keep each squad effective against one type of target in shooting, and call it good. You'll have fewer headaches later when you REALLY needed that land raider dead, but you only had one metla to shoot it with.

darkdm wrote:Keep each squad effective against one type of target in shooting, and call it good. You'll have fewer headaches later when you REALLY needed that land raider dead, but you only had one metla to shoot it with.

QFT

Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Ball Pred are fast and have a flame template that wounds IG on a 2+ with no armor saves.
Land seeders are fast and have a flame template that wounds IG on a 2+ with no armor saves.

The Ball has a lot more armor, while the land speeder will have a multi melta and will be almost half the cost.
2 Land speeders with MM have twice the flamethrower kill power of 1 Baal and only cost 5 points more.

Even in a BA/non Salamanders list land speeders are a much better deal against IG than a Flamecannon Baal Pred.

Question: Why do Baal Preds perform so poorly against IG compared to Land Speeders?
Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.