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sebster wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:We can't censure Saudi Arabia, we're already engaged to the fullest extent we really can be in Pakistan, we can't invade Iran without a shitstorm, moving into Yemen would be nice but we lack the political will, and we don't have the political gumption to heavily restrict or monitor people of ethnic arab descent in America. Other then being smarter with how we gather intelligence we're doing the best possible thing by giving them better targets in countries other then the U.S.. The next time Germany wants to send a few tanks into Yemen or Sudan I'm all for it, until then I think we're engaged well past the point that we reasonably should be in "combating terror" abroad.

Except that breaking down international terror groups isn't restricted to just invading other countries. Indeed, invading other countries is barely related, and in some cases makes breaking down terror networks even harder. As Phryxis said, surely the better option here would be to tag this kid, then track any efforts from actual terrorists to contact this kid, and work up the chain from there?

We could also have dogma and sebster logically argue those terrorists out of hiding.

Terrorist: I want to destroy America!

dogma/sebster: How will you do it?

T: By blowing it up!

d/s: How will it blow up?

T: With bombs!

d/s: How will these bombs detonate?

T: Via remote control!

d/s: You should switch to the 4G coverage as it will mean faster exploding time.

T: Amazing! I'll go sign up with Sprint now.

And there you have it: Now we have the terrorist right where we want it, on a mobile broadband provider!

sebster wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:We can't censure Saudi Arabia, we're already engaged to the fullest extent we really can be in Pakistan, we can't invade Iran without a shitstorm, moving into Yemen would be nice but we lack the political will, and we don't have the political gumption to heavily restrict or monitor people of ethnic arab descent in America. Other then being smarter with how we gather intelligence we're doing the best possible thing by giving them better targets in countries other then the U.S.. The next time Germany wants to send a few tanks into Yemen or Sudan I'm all for it, until then I think we're engaged well past the point that we reasonably should be in "combating terror" abroad.

Except that breaking down international terror groups isn't restricted to just invading other countries. Indeed, invading other countries is barely related, and in some cases makes breaking down terror networks even harder. As Phryxis said, surely the better option here would be to tag this kid, then track any efforts from actual terrorists to contact this kid, and work up the chain from there?

And when they are operating in areas like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen where we have little recourse for action within their borders? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but keep in mind, it was that exact course of action that saw an extremist international terrorist organization take hold of an entire country (afghanistan) while the seeds for another was spread across the entirety of the mideast. Do you believe that small scale directed action can dismantle a network like Al-Queda, which draws much of it's funding from our allies or the Taliban which has the backing of tribes and can set up defacto governments to draw funds and recruits from the moment military scrutiny is moved from them? Cutting the talibans funding directly involves military intervention in afghanistan and effectively damaging or destroying Al-Queda and similar international organizations requires either strong and effective allied foreign governance (Neither of which exist in the mideast) or direct military intervention on a large scale (which is proven only truly effective at making their war localized rather than international). There are no easy answers besides going back a few decades an making sure that we didn't play dominos with the ruskies in the mideast, at this point the ball is rolling and to date we haven't had another major terror incident within U.S. borders, so at least the concept of externalizing the conflict seems to be somewhat effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:And when they are operating in areas like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen where we have little recourse for action within their borders?

That's where bringing stable, effective governments to Yemen and Pakistan comes in. Which is admittedly easier said that done.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but keep in mind, it was that exact course of action that saw an extremist international terrorist organization take hold of an entire country (afghanistan) while the seeds for another was spread across the entirety of the mideast.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. What course of action?

Do you believe that small scale directed action can dismantle a network like Al-Queda, which draws much of it's funding from our allies or the Taliban which has the backing of tribes and can set up defacto governments to draw funds and recruits from the moment military scrutiny is moved from them?

I'm not sure the answer is to look to dismantle AQ. I don't think that's possible. Really the idea is to take out what elements we can, limit their actions elsewhere, and look towards a long term decrease in people becoming extremists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WarOne wrote:We could also have dogma and sebster logically argue those terrorists out of hiding.

Terrorist: I want to destroy America!

(snip)

d/s: You should switch to the 4G coverage as it will mean faster exploding time.

T: Amazing! I'll go sign up with Sprint now.

And there you have it: Now we have the terrorist right where we want it, on a mobile broadband provider!

I can't speak for dogma, but I've never been unlucky enough to have to take a job selling phone plans. I think I would suck at it, quite badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phryxis wrote:Nah, I didn't say that, I think the kid is a worthless dead end.

Yeah, sorry, I was a little general in my language there. I meant that you suggested that it's better to focus on higher ups, and added the suggestion on how higher ups might be connected to this kid myself.

I don't know enough about the case in question to know if there was any chance of this kid being connected by actual terrorist groups at some time in the future. If so, it seems a wasted chance to catch someone more powerful. If not, the whole operation seems like it was completely pointless.

djones520 wrote:If the man had the will to drive a car full of what he thought was explosives, into a populated area, and then attempted to detonate it...

The FBI gave him the "equipment". They didn't make him do it. He did that himself.

Just be glad that it was the FBI that he got in contact with, and not a real jihadist cell.

Because then you'd be screaming about how the FBI didn't do enough.

Exactly. Evidently there are some notes that he was in contact with others overseas as well. Take him north of San Fran. Chum up the water a bit for a nice great white. Throw him in = profit!!!

Frazzled wrote:

djones520 wrote:If the man had the will to drive a car full of what he thought was explosives, into a populated area, and then attempted to detonate it...

The FBI gave him the "equipment". They didn't make him do it. He did that himself.

Just be glad that it was the FBI that he got in contact with, and not a real jihadist cell.

Because then you'd be screaming about how the FBI didn't do enough.

Exactly. Evidently there are some notes that he was in contact with others overseas as well. Take him north of San Fran. Chum up the water a bit for a nice great white. Throw him in = profit!!!

Does this come from personal usage of that method Frazzled?

Kilkrazy wrote:At the same time, if the FBI had not put the plot together, he wouldn't have gone ahead with it.

Until the real terrorists came along and put him up for it.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:At the same time, if the FBI had not put the plot together, he wouldn't have gone ahead with it.

Until the real terrorists came along and put him up for it.

Who isn't to say the FBI are the real terrorists? Maybe they are the ones instigating terrorists to terrorists plots.

Or I could also be insane.

Or a troll, either way, you need mental help so hey, here's the number to my psychologist.

(███)███-████

Melissia wrote:Or a troll, either way, you need mental help so hey, here's the number to my psychologist.

(███)███-████

Nah. I like my world colored insane:

WarOne wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

djones520 wrote:If the man had the will to drive a car full of what he thought was explosives, into a populated area, and then attempted to detonate it...

The FBI gave him the "equipment". They didn't make him do it. He did that himself.

Just be glad that it was the FBI that he got in contact with, and not a real jihadist cell.

Because then you'd be screaming about how the FBI didn't do enough.

Exactly. Evidently there are some notes that he was in contact with others overseas as well. Take him north of San Fran. Chum up the water a bit for a nice great white. Throw him in = profit!!!

Does this come from personal usage of that method Frazzled?

(hidesbucket marked "fishguts" behind back) What? Me? I am shocked, just shocked...

Frazzled wrote:

WarOne wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

djones520 wrote:If the man had the will to drive a car full of what he thought was explosives, into a populated area, and then attempted to detonate it...

The FBI gave him the "equipment". They didn't make him do it. He did that himself.

Just be glad that it was the FBI that he got in contact with, and not a real jihadist cell.

Because then you'd be screaming about how the FBI didn't do enough.

Exactly. Evidently there are some notes that he was in contact with others overseas as well. Take him north of San Fran. Chum up the water a bit for a nice great white. Throw him in = profit!!!

Does this come from personal usage of that method Frazzled?

(hidesbucket marked "fishguts" behind back) What? Me? I am shocked, just shocked...

Are you...

-ed?

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:At the same time, if the FBI had not put the plot together, he wouldn't have gone ahead with it.

Until the real terrorists came along and put him up for it.

It would be very useful to keep tabs on such guys in order to catch the real terrorist organisers.

But we will never know if this would have happened or not.

Which is good because it stops a terrorist attack from happening.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:At the same time, if the FBI had not put the plot together, he wouldn't have gone ahead with it.

Until the real terrorists came along and put him up for it.

It would be very useful to keep tabs on such guys in order to catch the real terrorist organisers.

But we will never know if this would have happened or not.

or he just fills his van with gas and drives it into a crowd and kills a bunch of people.

He had intent. He thought he had ability. He's fish food.
EDIT: We seriously need to revisit who's being let in from Somalia.

Except it doesn't because there wasn't a terrorist attack.

Maybe the resources spent on getting this guy were needed on another guy who really is being contacted by real terrorists.

Or maybe if the FBI had let this guy alone, and kept tabs on him, eventually he would have been contacted by real terrorists and the FBI could then have followed up a real lead.

Kilkrazy wrote:Except it doesn't because there wasn't a terrorist attack.

Maybe the resources spent on getting this guy were needed on another guy who really is being contacted by real terrorists.

Or maybe if the FBI had let this guy alone, and kept tabs on him, eventually he would have been contacted by real terrorists and the FBI could then have followed up a real lead.

One can only presume given that all the facts are unlikely to enter into the public domain but I would assume that the latter is the case; that the FBI had evidence or suspicion that he would be contacted by a genuine terrorist group and therefore decided to act.

Presumably it is easier for them to control the operation if it is of their own invention rather than trying to react to the situation created if this chap was acting on the orders of a genuine terrorist group and with a real bomb.

Kilkrazy wrote:Except it doesn't because there wasn't a terrorist attack.

Maybe the resources spent on getting this guy were needed on another guy who really is being contacted by real terrorists.

Or maybe if the FBI had let this guy alone, and kept tabs on him, eventually he would have been contacted by real terrorists and the FBI could then have followed up a real lead.

They can't leave him alone now. He's was waiting to kill people. He didn't need a big bomb to do that.

Of course the attack hasn't happened yet.

BECAUSE THEY STOPPED IT.

TF2 players have something for this kind of conversations. "Herpaderp."

Melissia wrote:Of course the attack hasn't happened yet.

BECAUSE THEY STOPPED IT.

TF2 players have something for this kind of conversations. "Herpaderp."

Wait I thought it was derpaherp?

Either way works. "derp derp" sometimes, too.

Melissia wrote:Of course the attack hasn't happened yet.

BECAUSE THEY STOPPED IT.

TF2 players have something for this kind of conversations. "Herpaderp."

There wasn't an attack, because it was made up by the FBI.

So that they could catch him before the foreign elements initiated something they might not have been able to stop, duh.

Have to agree with KK - might have been a better option to keep tabs on the guy until (or if) he is contacted by actual "bad guys" so they can, you know, take down an actual "bad guy network" rather than some random disenfranchised guy with no ties to anyone who was just making noise until the FBI essentially gave him the ways and means to actually do something.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Of course the attack hasn't happened yet.

BECAUSE THEY STOPPED IT.

TF2 players have something for this kind of conversations. "Herpaderp."

There wasn't an attack, because it was made up by the FBI.

No. The terrorist attempted an attack.
This is the classic definition of attempted murder.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:Have to agree with KK - might have been a better option to keep tabs on the guy until (or if) he is contacted by actual "bad guys" so they can, you know, take down an actual "bad guy network" rather than some random disenfranchised guy with no ties to anyone who was just making noise until the FBI essentially gave him the ways and means to actually do something.

You're assuming they are not doing that as well. That would be a false assumption.

Frazzled wrote:
He had intent. He thought he had ability.

These are both somewhat debatable. It's clear he wasn't exactly first of the line when it came to smarts' gettin'.

Being stupid isn't a legal defense.

Mental retardation might be, but I don't think he qualifies for that.

Frazzled wrote:You're assuming they are not doing that as well. That would be a false assumption.

Don't get me wrong, I would imagine that they are keeping tabs on a lot of people. Presumably they thought (without knowing a great deal about the case) that anyone shouting their heads off on the internet about wanting to take down America (or whatever) is less likely to be contacted by "real" terrorists groups precicely because security forces would be more likely to be watching these sorts of people.

My guess would be that he fell both into the category of "too loud to be contacted by terrorist types" and "potential danger of actually carrying out an attack anyway". Hence he was then trapped in a sting operation so that he could be apprehended and detained with little risk to citizens and property.

Obviously we can only guess at why it was appropriate in this case to entrap someone in such an operation rather than "watch and wait" since none of us has access to the details.

Melissia wrote:Being stupid isn't a legal defense.

Mental retardation might be, but I don't think he qualifies for that.

Melissia is correct. lets not forget what he thought he was doing.

Authorities say the youth, who recently attended Oregon State University in Corvallis, twice attempted to use a cellphone to detonate what he believed were explosives stored in 55-gallon drums packed into a white van, which he drove to the scene and parked near the Christmas tree gathering.

Lesson: Don't be a terrorist

filbert wrote:Presumably it is easier for them to control the operation if it is of their own invention rather than trying to react to the situation created if this chap was acting on the orders of a genuine terrorist group and with a real bomb.

Sure, but is 'easier' really worth sacrificing 'effective'. It's just... I'd rather see an announcement that the FBI has arrested people with the intent and ability to launch a terrorist attack, than see them announce they've arrested a guy with the intent, but whose only ability to launch an attack came from the FBI themselves.

Melissia wrote:TF2 players have something for this kind of conversations. "Herpaderp."

Which goes a long way to explaining why so few of the world's future leaders have come from among the TF2 community.

Frazzled wrote:No. The terrorist attempted an attack.
This is the classic definition of attempted murder.

Well, duh. No-one is arguing this guy isn't a bad guy. No-one. That this kid is guilty of a crime is obvious, and really not the point of this conversation. People are arguing that maybe instead of placing all their resources into catching some kid who only got the ability to make an attack through the FBI, they could have used him to track the people who represent a much greater threat - those with the ability to give bombs to other disaffected loons.