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Irdiumstern wrote:

DarkHound wrote:While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

While you can equal the amount of shots with lasguns, the Punisher is Str 5 while the lasguns are str 3, meaning you'd need more to equal in wounds.

I used to use the punisher vs eldar, As my opponent was always sure to have maximum seperation with units w/o transports. I found that massed #s dropped his jetseer/lock squad better than most thing i could do at the time.

I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

I've run a punisher off and on for a while, and truth be told, the best way I've found to run it as cheap as possible. I stick a heavy flamer on the front and don't give it any upgrades. Also, it's got rear armor 11 and I have very few issues moving it around up to the enemy. It gets off 20 shots on a squad, plus the heavy flamer. While it doesn't win me any games, it has a fairly solid record killing/running enough models off the table to pay for itself.

That being said, it's a niche tank and does exactly 2 things exceeedingly well:
1) Killing off small squads or the survivors of squads that have already taken fire. This one should be obvious, as the high volume of high strength shots usually yields 6 or 7 wounds on a squad. Yes, they'll get saves, but if there's only 3 or 4 models left in the squad it's worth the shooting.
2) Being a massive target. It's a high armor, high points, high shots tank, making it a high priority target. People do not want it to be on the table. Most people will spend effort on a Punisher that they really should be using on your other, more devestating firepower. And if they ignore it, revert to #1 or harrass units to death with it.

If you're using it for anything else in a list, you're better off leaving it at home.

darkdm wrote:I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

Here's the litmus test: Punisher with Pask and HB sponsons is the cost of 6 Ogryn. The Ogryn still have a few less shots overall and worse BS, but I'd rather have them every time, and I don't even like Ogryn. That should say something. For 225 points you can have 3 HWS with 3 HB, which will outperform at 27 HB shots, especially with the benefits of orders. That'd be the way to go. Wait, they can't move and shoot, you say? Well, you're not planning on moving that tank anyway, so what's the difference?

On the other hand, Basilisks are pure win. If they're not killing stuff, it's because you placed it poorly or your opponent diverted large amounts of resources toward killing them.

darkdm wrote:I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

I've run a punisher off and on for a while, and truth be told, the best way I've found to run it as cheap as possible. I stick a heavy flamer on the front and don't give it any upgrades. Also, it's got rear armor 11 and I have very few issues moving it around up to the enemy. It gets off 20 shots on a squad, plus the heavy flamer. While it doesn't win me any games, it has a fairly solid record killing/running enough models off the table to pay for itself.

Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

darkdm wrote:
That being said, it's a niche tank and does exactly 2 things exceeedingly well:
1) Killing off small squads or the survivors of squads that have already taken fire. This one should be obvious, as the high volume of high strength shots usually yields 6 or 7 wounds on a squad. Yes, they'll get saves, but if there's only 3 or 4 models left in the squad it's worth the shooting.

You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

darkdm wrote:
2) Being a massive target. It's a high armor, high points, high shots tank, making it a high priority target. People do not want it to be on the table. Most people will spend effort on a Punisher that they really should be using on your other, more devestating firepower. And if they ignore it, revert to #1 or harrass units to death with it.

If you're using it for anything else in a list, you're better off leaving it at home.

Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

Luke_Prowler wrote:
This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

While you can equal the amount of shots with lasguns, the Punisher is Str 5 while the lasguns are str 3, meaning you'd need more to equal in wounds.

daedalus wrote:Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

lol

Nenya97 wrote:you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference

IF is a huge difference.

IF almost always ignores cover on vehicles unless they've brought their own (SMF, for example), and it always hits side armor, which on most vehicles is worse.

I mean, let's say that you're up against another guard player, and he's hiding a manticore behind a chimera and blowing stuff up. As both the medusa and the basilisk have the same accuracy, let's just assume that they both hit in the shot that they take.

Medusa gets .16 glance and .666 pens for .16 wrecked results.

Basilisk gets .16 glance and .84 pens for .42 wrecks. The basilisk is 160% better, at 20% cheaper, and can be immune to return fire. Yes, this is a choice situation for the basilisk compared to the medusa, but still, it shows how one shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the benefits of indirect fire against targets at range.

I'm going to start this out by saying this again:

darkdm wrote:
I've run a punisher off and on for a while...

So firstly, no, I don't use it all the time. Secondly, I believe the OP was asking for advice on how to use it effectivly, so that's what I'm offering up. "Leave at home" is awesome list building advice, but not on how to use the unit effectivly.

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

daedalus wrote:
Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

I was saying it was silly to take the tank at 250 points rather than keep it at 180 if you're going to take it, not to take it at 250. If I'm not picking up on sarcasm here, sorry.

PhantomViper wrote:
Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

PhantomViper wrote:
You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

PhantomViper wrote:
Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

darkdm wrote:And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I don't have to.

I don't feel obliged to spend time, money, and effort to collect a couple of subjective data sets when I have an objective one already at my disposal. Punishers are bad. The only way they're not is when you're really lucky with them. Testing them on the field adds nothing to this fact.

Nenya97 wrote:Bassies are not better than their equivalents.

Manticores...
- 35 pts more
- -1ap
+ 1/3 the minimum range
+ +1 Strength
+ closed top (part of points cost)
+ d3 shots is always better than one
+ barrage with multiple shots can be more than just devastating.
+ Does not have to worry about relying on their being terrain on the absolute corners of the table with a lower range
to name a few...

Medusa...
- no indirect fire
-+ 10 points more (not really a downside but was mentioned earlier and should be noted on how minuscule of a argument it is)
-+ max range of 36"
+ S10
+ ap2
+ 5 pt option to turn one in a unit to absolutely just destroy any tank in the game (48" 2d6 armor pen ap1, nuff said)

Bassies over Manticore...
- open topped
- 36" minimum on indirect (you do not have to fire indirect but indirect is considered a bonus)
- S9
+ 35 pts less
+ ap3

Bassies over Medusa...
- ap 3
- 36" minimum range
- S9
+ indirect fire


This is what I saw, I may have missed something, as always, but these were pretty obvious to me.

I see the manticore being the ideal obvious choice if you have points, and after enclosed crew compartment upgrade, its only a 10 pt difference. Not too shabby.

Medusas are not quite the best choice in this field but they do more jobs than the bassie. They can kill Sv2+ reliably and also take on tanks at the same time. you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference, or a 1 pt difference between front and side (only exceptions i can think of is preds are 13/11 iirc)

In other regards, punisher is obvious disadvantage. heavy slots are for cheapy units. including the lrbt for low base cost en mass with high armor... so good.

There are 5 very common scenarios that I see in almost every single game with mechanized MEQ that would result in a corner placed basilisk getting a no cover shot off against MEQ.

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

In every single scenario an indirect shot with a basilisk is the ideal weapon to use against them.

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

1. stupid opponent

2. ok he spaces them and you have fun with the bassie killing 2 models if any at all...

3. not on our tables and conga line ftw

4. again stupid opponent

5. also very uncautious (and I want to see the drop pod landing out of 36" to the bassie... oO)

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I did both. (But I also play conscripts and stuff just to test their limits, and concluded: conscripts indeed suck )
And my experience is: If you want a unit to wipe out weakened squads or units of any kind: 2 punishers will do it.
statistically they do more damage than 2 executioners (if the opponent know what he is doing). If he doesnt, then the executioners do more.
But you have to spare many points for it and a HS slot. Think well over, and you wont have the bad unit most people think it is.
But I fear it has to be proven. Otherwise they wont believe.

I don't have to.

This is the attitude to kill innovation (dont take this personal, but honestly it sounds a bit arrogant doesnt it?)

maybe. You play blob guard so a punisher will be useless. But any mechvet (tank company) army that does not rely on a defensive lasgun wall may have a good time with it.
And your comparison with lasguns is a bit off, because

1. lasguns have no av14
2. a punisher has can pour his shots through a small gap, lasguns cannot
3. a punisher can shoot in >12" on the move, lasguns cannot

and again, punishers work best if they are a squadron of 2. And if you want to bring so much lasguns on, then you spend very much logistic effort just to kill off a unit (and remember, lasguns fire in sequences and casualties can be taken out so the rest wont see or has no range etc etc.) that I love to pay those maybe extra points (which doesnt matter very much as basically 2 or 3 units working close together can be sufficient to chew through an army).

-Nazdreg- wrote:

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

1. stupid opponent

2. ok he spaces them and you have fun with the bassie killing 2 models if any at all...

3. not on our tables and conga line ftw

4. again stupid opponent

5. also very uncautious (and I want to see the drop pod landing out of 36" to the bassie... oO)

1. Good to know the marine player has been cowed into submission. The threat range of mechanized melta 2d6 has gone down from 20" from the transport to 6" from a piece of area terrain. A timid and cautious meq player is going to end up slowing their advancement across the field resulting in a long range slugfest with ig.

2. Rhinos can get ok spacing, but its not a lot of space for 10 guys. Razorbacks are death traps, the space to deploy in is a 5" semicircle, and the size of a large pie is a 5" diameter. Rhinos get 3 5" semicircles that overlap, its impossible to get less than than 1/3 of the squad on a hit.

3. A tank shock into the crater will counter a conga line. Also if movement is 100% dictated by staying in area terrain the marine player will be severely slowed.

4. Standart operating procedure for meq against opponents that can not indirect fire, especially if a squad gets blown out of a transport with another friendly transport nearby.

5. Deepstriking into area terrain means the pod and squad take dangerous terrain tests. As previously stated bassies work best in pairs one in each corner. Result is that there is no blind spot for indirect fire.

In regards to Bassies...

To pull off the "well placed corners to cover the whole board" does not make sense spending 2 HS slots on Bassies... way too mono-dimensional and if you can spend the points on 2 bassies take 2 frickin manticores instead anyways; obvious better choice.
Don't waste 2 HS slots on making a 12/10/10 open topped vehicle MAYBE effective depending on the field that is set up. Not every game is going to have giant walls behind. In fact, most wont.

Another thing, schadenfreude, in regards to rhinos/razorbacks, the tip of my base has to be within 2" of the tank which is a lot bigger than a 5" diameter. Second of all, why the hell would you walk behind a razorback and not just frickin sit in it????

If a marine player has dedicated something into the open, they have dedicated it to kill something.

If you are facing drop pods, SM will laugh at your table corner bassies and send a drop pod to each of them and kill them, not throw them in the open.



I'm sorry but bassies suck, they may have unlimited range but 36" serves most any situation handly.

Indirect fire with a 36" minimum is not acceptable as a reliable tactic. The corners tactic takes 2 HS slots, purely situational on the table, and incredibly easily taken down by outflankers, skimmers, jump packers, any kind of unit that can get inside that 36" bubble just blows your strategy out the window and you are the situation that for 10 points more, you could have a S10 ap2 gun that is shooting at these things (medusa) or a frickin manticore which can shoot them until they get into assault range which they are most likely so close that they dont get cover (but armor if meq or better).


Bassies suck. Comparatively.

They have their scenarios where they excel but they are avoided easily except by other gunlines. Which other gunlines are going to have options to quickly destroy that bassie anyways so you might as well go with a more direct option like manticores or medusas.



Indirect Fire with such a high minimum range is easily avoidable.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
and again, punishers work best if they are a squadron of 2. .

daedalus wrote:Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'..

'Nuff said.

The tip of the base has to be within 2" of the acess hatch, not the vehicle.

Q:Why would meq be behind a transport and not in it?
A:because their own transport was blown to hell on turn 1 and the transport they are hiding behind already has a squad in it.

What do you expect meq to do if they lose their ride on turn 1?

IG love to spread out and do corner deployments. Hydra and manticore also do well there. Chimera can provide some cover, end extreme range from enemy hs protects them from some enemy heavy weapons. If its a pod army cannon fodder can distrup deep strike locations enough that the melta will be out of double dice pen range.

If an ig player can't stop pods from wrecking corner deployed units they have less of a chance of defending center deployed manticores. Defending a corner deployed bassie is the same as defending a corner deployed manticore. An IG player worth their salt can protect corner units from pods, its outflankers that are the problem.

The great marine killer of corner deployed big guns is the humble scout with a krak grenade, which are not very popular choices. Far too many armies fail to include outflanking units.

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:

darkdm wrote:
I've run a punisher off and on for a while...

So firstly, no, I don't use it all the time. Secondly, I believe the OP was asking for advice on how to use it effectivly, so that's what I'm offering up. "Leave at home" is awesome list building advice, but not on how to use the unit effectivly.

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

daedalus wrote:
Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

I was saying it was silly to take the tank at 250 points rather than keep it at 180 if you're going to take it, not to take it at 250. If I'm not picking up on sarcasm here, sorry.

PhantomViper wrote:
Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

PhantomViper wrote:
You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

PhantomViper wrote:
Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

I have used the Punisher quite a bit, at it's peak it will lay down MC's and Low model squads in a hurry, at it's worst it will harmlessly patter bullets off of an enemy vehicle or unit in cover. I would say the Punisher is like betting on green at Roulette, sure you rarely do amazing things with it, but once and a while it goes gangbusters and lays down a flyrant, two tyrant gurds and a Trygon prime (which mine did, in KP no less)

By that logic, the deathstrike is the greatest thing in the IG codex.

I do not get it with the bassie.

Indirect Fire is cool but imo (which is what this seems to come down to; differing opinion) losing S and ap is not worth a limited amount of indirect fire usage which seems to be the ONLY upgrade the bassie gives you over medusa if you dont have points for manticore.

I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

darkdm wrote:And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

Not that it was necessary, but I have actually played a game with a Punisher. Against Nids. Probably the most optimal use of a Punisher there is. I was still wishing it was a Hellhound or anything else by the end of the game. Don't get me wrong, it's not that it doesn't cause damage, it's just that it doesn't cause the level of damage I'd like in a tank. Maybe if it's main gun was 36" range or something like that I could see a case for it. The biggest problem is that it's designed to fill a gap in my army that I never needed filled. I don't need anti-infantry shots because I have heavy bolters, multilasers, and heavy flamers everywhere. Maybe if I went back to my gun line days, but then I'd still probably have plenty of HWS with bolters.

Terminus wrote:By that logic, the deathstrike is the greatest thing in the IG codex.

That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that the peaks and valleys of a Punisher's performance are much more pronounced than say, a Leman Russ Battle Tank.

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:
And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

darkdm wrote:
Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

darkdm wrote:
I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.


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Ed_Bodger wrote:I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

I would really love to see this list from this five nations champion that relies so much on squadrons of Punishers and also some BRs where those Punishers wipe out terminators and nob bikers. (no sarcasm here, I really never heard of this tournament and would like to read a BR where that kind of stuff happened)

Nenya97 wrote:Indirect Fire is cool but imo (which is what this seems to come down to; differing opinion) losing S and ap is not worth a limited amount of indirect fire usage which seems to be the ONLY upgrade the bassie gives you over medusa if you dont have points for manticore.

You ignore cover and hit side armor. If the side armor is 2 points lower than the front, that's the same as giving you basilisk +2 S. If you're ignoring cover, you make the vehicle 100% more effective than if you don't. I don't see why this is coming across as unimpressive.

That and the thing that's being missed here is that it's not JUST about effectiveness. If effectiveness were the ONLY determiner, then the only piece of artillery worth taking would be the deathstrike. In this case, it's also about efficiency, which the basilisk is the king of in the whole guard HS section.

PhantomViper wrote:
The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

Whoops, you're totally right there. I was thinking Hellhound for some reason.

PhantomViper wrote:
Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

-Nazdreg- had it right here, it's easier to fire all the shots with a Punisher than it is an Infantry Squad. Also, you run into issues if of not having the many shots if you run Mech Vets.

PhantomViper wrote:
Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.

I literally just played a tournament this last weekend where we used victory points to determine who won and losts games. It was one of the 3 largest tournaments where I live, so it's not like it was some little fluke.

Ailaros wrote:

darkdm wrote:
And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I don't have to.

I don't feel obliged to spend time, money, and effort to collect a couple of subjective data sets when I have an objective one already at my disposal. Punishers are bad. The only way they're not is when you're really lucky with them. Testing them on the field adds nothing to this fact.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

darkdm wrote:
And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I did both. (But I also play conscripts and stuff just to test their limits, and concluded: conscripts indeed suck )
And my experience is: If you want a unit to wipe out weakened squads or units of any kind: 2 punishers will do it.
statistically they do more damage than 2 executioners (if the opponent know what he is doing). If he doesnt, then the executioners do more.
But you have to spare many points for it and a HS slot. Think well over, and you wont have the bad unit most people think it is.
But I fear it has to be proven. Otherwise they wont believe.

I've yet to try conscripts, but I feel as if they'll provide oodles of laughs anyways.

But here I see the two different kinds of answers I was expecting. [sterotyping] Those of us that have actually run them for more than a game or two may not take them all the time, but know that the Punisher has a place and can be used effectivly. Those that are unwilling or unable to try generally view it with utter disdain. [/stereotyping] I'd argue that every unit in every codex has a role it fufills very well on the battlefield. There are those that have a much narrower niche than others, or that aren't obviosuly apperant. The Punisher is one of those units.

Ailaros, I understand you're aversion to LR's in your army (thanks to your batreps), and why you don't like the tank makes more sense to me than anyone else who's saying it is useless (though I still feel it doesn't validate the harsh remarks made towards it). But people really ought to try it for more than a game. daedalus, you really should give it a shot in more than just one game. And no, 'Nids are not the optimum army to use it against. I'd actually argue horde Orks are.

The Basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game of 40K, I always take at least 1. That S9 AP3 shot scares the pants off of my opposition. They'll waste all kinds of suicide units to take care of it while my LRBT makes a mockery of other troops.

PhantomViper wrote:

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:
And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

darkdm wrote:
Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

darkdm wrote:
I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

I would really love to see this list from this five nations champion that relies so much on squadrons of Punishers and also some BRs where those Punishers wipe out terminators and nob bikers. (no sarcasm here, I really never heard of this tournament and would like to read a BR where that kind of stuff happened)

If you genuinely pm me and I'll send it to you.

darkdm wrote:
Ailaros, I understand you're aversion to LR's in your army (thanks to your batreps), and why you don't like the tank makes more sense to me than anyone else who's saying it is useless (though I still feel it doesn't validate the harsh remarks made towards it). But people really ought to try it for more than a game. daedalus, you really should give it a shot in more than just one game. And no, 'Nids are not the optimum army to use it against. I'd actually argue horde Orks are.

I agree for a couple of reasons. I'll get this out there just for fairness of my argument, no I have not played with or against a LR Punisher but I have been playing this game for long enough to know that it has potential. I think some players develop a bit of an Elitist attitude sometimes when it comes to what works and what doesn't (I myself am guilty of this sometimes). The Elitist attitude often makes people think that because their is something more effective, than it makes the underdog obsolete or useless. This is a very unfair evaluation and Extremely one dimensional.

Although one tank may have more destructive potential than another for the points, their is something extremely appealing to me about the Punisher. It's number of shots. Not because its fun to roll lots of dice (which it is), its more because this is a game of probability, and probability in much higher numbers is much, much more reliable. My Ork friend who rolls 120 dice in the assault phase as 4+ will almost always roll within 5 of the halfway mark, which is something he can basically rely on. When your shooting 1 big blast their is a decent chance you wont hit anything, or you wont hit the target you were aiming for. When it comes to shooting 30 shots you can expect some kind of results. Which leads to easier decisions in the shooting phase, and can put the right pressure on units that you want to give lots of armor saves.

Another thing to consider. Blast markers are a bit of an unknown when it comes to how many hits you're going to make. A decent opponent will always put that into consideration and diminish your blast weapons potential just by spreading his units a bit more. So if your Ordinance is working like a charm maybe your opponent just isn't as competent as you should hope. Easy wins just doesn't lead to a whole lot of learning, although it might mean you're a tactical genius, it very easily just might mean you're opponent is a tactical failure. If you think your unit choices are whats winning you the game and not your tactics, then that is proof right there that your opponent is incompetent.

Lastly, not every single unit is large in size. Often they will be no more than 5 models just because of their larger point values or because you thinned them out earlier. With a blast, you can inflict a maximum of 5 wounds on 5 guys and it A- might not have the right AP to ignore their saves, or B- they might have decent invulnerable or cover saves to apply. When it comes to units small in size, persistence is the best way to deal with them and to be honest larger blasts are just not the persistence you necessarily need. Especially if killing this enemy unit will save you from it killing yours.

I'm sure I wont convince all of your that the Punisher has its place on the field. But I think 40k tactics are generally tainted by conformity and I always encourage gamers to try new tactics and new units.

-cheers.


-edit________________________________________________________________

lol.. Writing this post makes me want to buy a LR Punisher.

Having only really played with a Punisher for a grand total of 3 games, I can tell you that in 2 out of those three it proved such annoying unit that my opponent had to focus on it. And I ran 2 of them each game.

I am not saying that it wins games, but as a few people have said it is not as "bad" as everyone else thinks it too be.

-Removed two combat squads in cover by forcing them to take 7-8 wounds.
-Two Punishers whittled down a crusader squad of 15 to just the character and 3 marines. That makes plasmaguns and melta guns more likely to kill the ones I need dead.
-Two Punishers dropped a Hive tyrant + 2 guard with FNP in one turn.

Yes I have had them completely wiff and do nothing. But running two of them has proved to be enough to make them valuable. And no matter how hesitant you are about performance, they do perform. Not only by killing models and forcing LD checks, but also by being a fire magnet. Who in their right mind is going to leave up two tanks that together can put out 46 shots a turn? Even if you are running a Mech army, 46 shots at a Rhino WILL cause some glances, and you only need 3 immobilized or weapon destroyed results to wreck it.



*edit spelling

@Bassie

1. Good to know the marine player has been cowed into submission. The threat range of mechanized melta 2d6 has gone down from 20" from the transport to 6" from a piece of area terrain. A timid and cautious meq player is going to end up slowing their advancement across the field resulting in a long range slugfest with ig.

2. Rhinos can get ok spacing, but its not a lot of space for 10 guys. Razorbacks are death traps, the space to deploy in is a 5" semicircle, and the size of a large pie is a 5" diameter. Rhinos get 3 5" semicircles that overlap, its impossible to get less than than 1/3 of the squad on a hit.

3. A tank shock into the crater will counter a conga line. Also if movement is 100% dictated by staying in area terrain the marine player will be severely slowed.

4. Standart operating procedure for meq against opponents that can not indirect fire, especially if a squad gets blown out of a transport with another friendly transport nearby.

5. Deepstriking into area terrain means the pod and squad take dangerous terrain tests. As previously stated bassies work best in pairs one in each corner. Result is that there is no blind spot for indirect fire.

1. not really, SM can shoot back very well if they start launching their missile wall. SM are not far away from IG concerning long range firepower. Wolves are even superior. And again 3 guys in area terrain are fair enough. On our tables this is provided almost everywhere.

2. tell that to our rhino players 2"+ base diameter is quite a long distance, so you can have 1 model in contact with the door and the other models 2" spaced.

3. tank shock? so I will place my models in 1" distance to your vehicle and you wont hit me with the 5" pie plate, because you cannot do it without hitting your own vehicle, which is forbidden. And jumping from area terrain into area terrain does not slow down the army very much. At least not at our tables.

4. Yes, but as soon as indirect fire is on the board, the opponent should change the kind of advance. But troops hang around in midfield most of the time anyways.

5. Pod yes (who cares?) squad, no, they just disembark into difficult terrain. Another possibility: running into cover after having deep struck. MEQ is really easy to dig in. Even horde armies most of the time will find enough area terrain to cover their whole squads (if half of each is placed within).

@Punisher

I think I said enough. Again, try them. They wont disappoint you.

In regards to Bassies...

Indirect Fire can be devastating, I will admit to that.

What I cannot agree with is the Bassie being the best choice to fill the mold.
What the Bassie does, the Manticore can do it either better or in a different way. (Indirect at 1' or inflicting d3 blasts of wounds to get around an armor save)

Basilisks were good when they were the only option for a real strong artillery gun but the newer choices are so beyond superior that they blow bassies out the window back into remnants of the past.

I am not saying that deploying table corners with bassies is a bad idea, I am saying that it is less than ideal, taking up 2 HS slots that are the bread and butter of the army.

Any long range shooting decimates the basilisk or stops it from firing, just like any other artillery gun.
But.
Taking 2 HS slots to cover the majority of the table with one kind of weapon (may it be 2 shots) is not the best because then what can you take as your 3rd? You are almost forced to take Hydras (competitively, to keep up an autocannon defense)

I am saying that the table corner bassies is bad because
-2 HS slots
-most likely going to not be able to hide behind walls and be subject to any heavy weapon fire with the crap artillery chassis
-36" is not that hard of a gap to get into, only exception being the first turn if you get it.
-You have now filled most of your HS with an option that is easily counterable by just running forward (which, if you didn't know, is most peoples' tactic against IG)
-The bassie's true counterpart (manticore) does his job a hundred fold better.

Bassies are a thing of the past that have been dethroned by the manticore.

If you praise Indirect Fire so much, you must agree that the Manticore would be a better choice in all regards except ap (of which is made up for easily by d3 large blasts of S10)