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Yeah, I know, the two vehicles have nothing really to do with each other, but I didn't want to make a thread for both. Anyway, what are some good strategies to use with these vehicles? Are they even worth taking?

punishers are only good for putting lots of wounds on a single model or messing up a unit that has 2+ saves as they take so many they fail some of them, like terminators. (but a executioner will still kill them better). They actually are a bit poor for just taking out massed infantry, the normal russ does it just as well if not better. Basilisks are good, but artillery and long ranged so good if your playing on a 12x6 table but otherwise hard to fit into a small force.

Basilisks for their points cost are well worth it. Even just one can wreak havoc with the enemy. Punisher's I don't like. It suffers from having what it does done better by other options. I would still take an executioner over it.

3 basilisks cost less than 10 terminators, and can ruin a heap more units quicker than terminators can (not saying their better all the time at all)

If you take 3 basilsisk (375 points) they can fire while moving, use multiple barrage to hit stuff outside of 36 extremely accurately, and str 9 ordnance has a good chance of penetrating even AV14 (1/3). Basilisks ruin hoards and MEQ. I cannot stop praising Basilisks, I wish I could afford 3, for I would surely field them all.

Punishers have their niché. They, with pask, get reroll to wound str 5 against MCs. Hitting roughly 12 times with the main gun alone, they will wound 4 times, with rerolls adding another 2 wounds. A trygon with a 3+ will fail 2 of those, which is decent damage output, but not enough. Add sponsons, and your going to do a lot more. Plasma cannons are useful for anti everything other than tanks, but putting another 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber raises the ROFPT (rate of fire per turn ) to 31, 29 str 5 and 3 str 4.

The sheer amount of dice means that luck can more easily fall in your favour, and you can seriously slaughter stuff like terminators with 30 shots. Rerolls to wound would mathhammer to about this:

29 str 5 shots fired: 20 hit, 15 wound, 2 or 3 armour passes on terminators = 120 + points down.

Sadly, the math hammer says the punisher sucks.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:punishers are only good for putting lots of wounds on a single model or messing up a unit that has 2+ saves as they take so many they fail some of them, like terminators. (but a executioner will still kill them better). They actually are a bit poor for just taking out massed infantry, the normal russ does it just as well if not better. Basilisks are good, but artillery and long ranged so good if your playing on a 12x6 table but otherwise hard to fit into a small force.

Why wouldn't the punisher be good against ork boyz? Doesn't it have something like 20 shots?

basilisk tactica:

1.) point
2.) smear


Punisher tactica:

1.) leave your punishers on the shelf until the next guard codex.
2.) SERIOUSLY! Did I just see you try to take that off the shelf?

Moving to Tactics.

I concur with everything said. The only time to take a punisher is if you just want to play with it. From a tactical point of view you're better off a different LR tank.

One note on Bassies moving and shooting: they can only move and direct fire. if you want to do a barrage fire they have to be stationary.

What I want to know is why is a Colossus 140 points, while a griffon is only 75? The extra point of ap, and the negation of cover is really worth 65 points? I won't take the griffon because its only s6 ap4, and I won't take the colossus 'cause it's 140 fricken points. I'd rather have a bassie, or rush a demolisher into their faces...

Basilisk's are arguably one of the best all around anti-infantry vehicle at guard disposal. For 125 points you can lay waste to infantry models either in our out of cover.

The Punisher.... meh... for the point cost of the Punisher w/ Pask I can have 3 Hydra flak tanks that have more range, are more acurate, are 2 points higher in strength, have AP, and can take 2 weapon destroyed per vehicle before they loose their Hyrda Cannons. Sure the Punisher has more armor, and about 8 more shots, but with 24" range, you generally only have one turn to shoot, before your tank is kaputski.

So Basilisk is good, Punisher is Heck-No (but if you substitute a Hydra Heck-Yes).

both of the mentioned vehicles are not quite worth their salt.

As mentioned, mathhammer defeats punisher everyday unless for fun games.

Sadly, I can not bring myself to bring bassies anymore, there are just way better heavy choices. Namely the medusa, manticore, and hydra (or lemans if you wanna spam em cheap)

In regard to bassies...

Medusas...
are S10 (half strength can still somewhat hit peoples' side/rear.
Ap2 makes them a cheaper alternative to executioners or demolishers
Large Blast.
Option to make one of the tanks in the battery a true tank killer for 5 points more.
10 pts more than a bassy.
36" range is pretty dang good and never really need more if you position right (if you go irst, put middle, if not react accordingly).
36" range beats demolisher

Idk, these are the bonuses i see in just the medusa over the bassie. Manticore has pretty similar capabilities for a lil more points but come on, d3 s10 is the best of the best with a decent ap4 can really wipe out hordes and also deal with mech, two prevalent defenses used to get across the table or to just not die.

Bassies are slightly under par nowadays compared to other choices in many regards. Between the manticore and medusa, there are much much better options.

I will say that the bassie has a couple things up against the medusa in that it can fire indirect, but at a min of 36" which is truly unacceptable. Against the manticore, it has ap3 on it. The manticore can make of for this in number of blasts to cause wounds.

Bassie is decent but nowhere near staple in armies anymore.

Ailaros wrote:basilisk tactica:

1.) point
2.) smear

That pretty much sums it up. Find meq behind cover but not in it and smear them, best case scenario is they jumped out of a moving transport so the basilisk can smear the transport and squad.

The only downside to the basilisk is that it is too deadly for it's own good. Meq players who don't want to be smeared need to kill basilisks asap.

I like to screen my basi's with chimeras. lets you shoot and get a nice cover save at the same time.

Leprousy wrote:The extra point of ap, and the negation of cover is really worth 65 points?

Yes.

Ask any marine player.

Nenya97 wrote:Sadly, I can not bring myself to bring bassies anymore, there are just way better heavy choices. Namely the medusa...

Yes, the medusa's stats are a little better, thus the points increase. Being able to sit out of LOS and always deny cover to vehicles AND always hit them on side armor that you shoot at when they're over 36" away is priceless. The only time the medusa is better is when you're shooting at targets with the same side armor, or when you're dealing with targets which have artificial cover (like SMF and smoke).

Oh, and terminators, which no guard player should have trouble with.

I agree that the basilisk is no longer the staple it once was, in part due to the fact that we actually have an alternative now. It's still pretty good, though, and it's still a very efficient killer.

Hm, I dont like bassies too much. Their specific targets are just...hm...not there.

1. When do you see MEQ out in the open and in the backfield? Yes, never.
2. if you shoot without LOS, are your chances good to hit a vehicle? Ehm, nope...
3. Do you need to shoot anything behind 36" except for turn 1-2? Normally not.

And the most decisive point is: There is a vehicle called Manticore. It does the vehicle job better, it has up to 3 shots per phase and simply does more damage against everything but MEQ out of cover and out of 36" which simply does not happen.

Concerning punisher:

I have to agree on a single punisher being not too useful. But I disagree on a punishersquadron of 2 with HB-support being useless.
Their biggest point is their reliability. They dont do much damage, but they will reliably take out a combat squad in one go regardless of cover, going to ground etc etc.
You have to point 10 BS4 Plasmaguns onto them at short range to accomplish that, or you have to lay 6 flamer templates over them.
And when the opponent starts to space, your executioner will not perform very good when you start getting just 1 model under the small blast.
And any other 1 shot large blast squadron has to hit both and wound all of them to do this.
So actually the punisher squadron does this very well.

You can frequently see meq somewhere in the battlefield, and they are often using interviening models and/or terrain as their only source of cover.

The 36" is ocer half of the table if the unit is deployed in a corner.

The only time I have seen a punisher performing well was with pask against mc and vehicles. Pask can turn one into a good rhino/mc hunter.

You can frequently see meq somewhere in the battlefield, and they are often using interviening models and/or terrain as their only source of cover.

Maybe you have a different metagame

but I would disagree on both.

Here, MEQ is either in transports or in area terrain, to make it simple.

The 36" is ocer half of the table if the unit is deployed in a corner.

yes, but in the enemies backfield you will see defensive combat squads or dev squads in area terrain. Or long fangs in area terrain.
MEQ only deploys in the open if they dont have to be in cover (because either the player is careless, or the opponent has no ap3 or less), because there always should be enough terrain on the table to find some area terrain to place those few Marines in.

@punisher

yes 1 punisher is not enough. 2 punishers are required. And pask is kinda wasted in my opinion. ap- reduces the ability to hunt rhinos properly to a tiny bit, and the exterminator would be more valid.

and of course punishers have drawbacks, you cannot use them against vehicles and the squadron is expensive. But in my 4 games with them they did well in 3 games. (The one they did not well against was a deathguard CSM army where they had just FNP around)

Ailaros wrote:Yes, the medusa's stats are a little better, thus the points increase. Being able to sit out of LOS and always deny cover to vehicles AND always hit them on side armor that you shoot at when they're over 36" away is priceless. The only time the medusa is better is when you're shooting at targets with the same side armor, or when you're dealing with targets which have artificial cover (like SMF and smoke).

You forgot to add "when they are NOT over 36" away" to your list, which is actually pretty damn often.

-Nazdreg- wrote:There is a vehicle called Manticore. It does the vehicle job better, it has up to 3 shots per phase and simply does more damage against everything but MEQ out of cover and out of 36" which simply does not happen.

Oh, yes, the manticore is a great weapon. Of course, it SHOULD be, given that it costs 25% more than a basilisk.

As mentioned, the basilisk is an EFFICIENT killer, thus making it still worth taking.

Terminus wrote:You forgot to add "when they are NOT over 36" away" to your list, which is actually pretty damn often.

True, but, as mentioned, the 36" blind spot doesn't cover even half the board when you tuck it away in a corner, and there are plenty of vehicles out there that like to sit in the backfield and shoot - not just from the guard codex. I mean, when was the last time you saw a rifleman dread charging down the field or a hammer head get in nice and close?

Very few people have the insane wherewithall to go completely without static support units. There's usually going to be SOMETHING of value worth shooting at until the vehicle is destroyed.

Plus, on most capture and control and seize ground games, there are invariably going to be objectives over 36" away from the basilisk.

If you stick a vehicle in the corner, you are either having to dedicate models to keeping it safe, or having it roflestomped by any outflanking elements the opponent may have. If you dedicate models to safeguard it, you again face the issue of the opponent moving towards you and thus under your guns.

I personally field them not so much out of any incredible usefulness (there are better ways to use heavy support slots), but rather because they have the most massive barrels and look totally badass.

Ailaros wrote:
Punisher tactica:

1.) leave your punishers on the shelf until the next guard codex.
2.) SERIOUSLY! Did I just see you try to take that off the shelf?

QFT.

Thats basically all you need to know about Punishers.

L. Wrex

Well, I use a Punisher in my Armored Company, and I absolutely adore the thing. Granted, Armored Company is structured differently than the standard codex, but I'd take one even in standard Guard. Suffice to say most people over estimate how many models they can get under a blast template, and don't give enough credit to forcing wound allocation.

In Pitched Battle and Dawn of War (That's 2/3 deployments) half of the IG's deployment zone will be over 36" from a Basilisk placed in a corner, and in spearhead deployment the other side is clustered making spearhead deployment great for artillery in the 1st turn. In any deployment a basilisk placed in each corner means 100% of the board is covered by a single indirect basilisk round.

Also if worse comes to worse a basilisk can direct fire with no minimal range.

Now it's time to answer the question: How often are mechanized MEQ caught out in the open?

Answer:50% of the time, or 33% of the time when melta is the cause of the penetrating hit.
Evidence=vehicle penetration chart
Wrecked=squad deployed out in the open
Explodes=squad deployed in cover

If a vehicles is wrecked instead of exploding all MEQ inside are forced out the access hatch and end up clustered behind the vehicle which won't provide cover against indirect fire. The single access hatch turns Razorbacks into death traps in the presence of a Basilisk because if it's wrecked all 6 MEQ are forced to deploy within 2" of that single access hatch.

GalacticDefender wrote:Why wouldn't the punisher be good against ork boyz? Doesn't it have something like 20 shots?

Punisher Cannon and three HB's, immobile at 24 inches:

20*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)=5.555...
9*(1/2)*(2/3)=3

That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

Actually, what shoudl really put you off is when you compare the punisher's damage output to it's points in lasguns (hint: the lasguns usually win).

The point of heavy support is to lay down the damage strong and thick. The punisher does as much damage, or less, as its cost in troops choices... except it doesn't also score...

MekanobSamael wrote:
That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

I think I love you for that reference.

From my point of view, Basilisks are worth their points alone for fear factor. Though many armies nowadays are indeed meched up, you will face armies that rely on foot based units to do long ranged damage... Space Wolves Missile Spam, Guard Blobs, that sort of thing. If nothing else, you force your opponent into cover, which can cause LOS issues or bunch up their forces. Then they HAVE to dedicate units to killing the Bassie, which means the other 80% f your army is freer to do what they need to do. I know as a Marine player who uses Assault Squads and Drop Pods (not exactly a rare build...) that exposed marines do NOT like Basilisks shooting them.

While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

The Punisher's main gun nabs 6 Orks a shooting phase right? How much can equivalent weapons get? If you can get an astounding 6 models under a single large blast template, you're still only getting 5 kills with Battlecannons, Demolisher cannons, Earthshakers, etc..

Pvt. Jet wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:
That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

I think I love you for that reference.

From my point of view, Basilisks are worth their points alone for fear factor. Though many armies nowadays are indeed meched up, you will face armies that rely on foot based units to do long ranged damage... Space Wolves Missile Spam, Guard Blobs, that sort of thing. If nothing else, you force your opponent into cover, which can cause LOS issues or bunch up their forces. Then they HAVE to dedicate units to killing the Bassie, which means the other 80% f your army is freer to do what they need to do. I know as a Marine player who uses Assault Squads and Drop Pods (not exactly a rare build...) that exposed marines do NOT like Basilisks shooting them.

Yea they are good for pod, jump, and mech meq.

Drop pod marines take dangerous terrain tests if they deep strike into area terrain. If they rely on the pod for cover the bassie can indirect onto the pod and nail the marines.

Jump packs take dangerous terrain tests if they are in area cover so they are good targets.

Mechanized meq are out in the open and clustered when their vehicles are wrecked.

The Punisher's main gun nabs 6 Orks a shooting phase right? How much can equivalent weapons get? If you can get an astounding 6 models under a single large blast template, you're still only getting 5 kills with Battlecannons, Demolisher cannons, Earthshakers, etc..

Yes, but the main difference is RANGE. A punisher that can shoot at a target bettter kill it, because it has only 1-2 more turns of life left because now it's in range to be shot at/assaulted.

If you're trying to compare it to a Bassie, there's no comparison. The Bassie can hit anything on the field period. The Punisher has to move into position, and with Lumbering Behemoth rule, it could take a while until it get's into range to do something.

Plus, with really fast army lists you could have units just run circles around a punisher (it's like playing tag as a kid, the fat ones were always fun to mess with

DarkHound wrote:While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

Bassies are not better than their equivalents.

Manticores...
- 35 pts more
- -1ap
+ 1/3 the minimum range
+ +1 Strength
+ closed top (part of points cost)
+ d3 shots is always better than one
+ barrage with multiple shots can be more than just devastating.
+ Does not have to worry about relying on their being terrain on the absolute corners of the table with a lower range
to name a few...

Medusa...
- no indirect fire
-+ 10 points more (not really a downside but was mentioned earlier and should be noted on how minuscule of a argument it is)
-+ max range of 36"
+ S10
+ ap2
+ 5 pt option to turn one in a unit to absolutely just destroy any tank in the game (48" 2d6 armor pen ap1, nuff said)

Bassies over Manticore...
- open topped
- 36" minimum on indirect (you do not have to fire indirect but indirect is considered a bonus)
- S9
+ 35 pts less
+ ap3

Bassies over Medusa...
- ap 3
- 36" minimum range
- S9
+ indirect fire


This is what I saw, I may have missed something, as always, but these were pretty obvious to me.

I see the manticore being the ideal obvious choice if you have points, and after enclosed crew compartment upgrade, its only a 10 pt difference. Not too shabby.

Medusas are not quite the best choice in this field but they do more jobs than the bassie. They can kill Sv2+ reliably and also take on tanks at the same time. you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference, or a 1 pt difference between front and side (only exceptions i can think of is preds are 13/11 iirc)

In other regards, punisher is obvious disadvantage. heavy slots are for cheapy units. including the lrbt for low base cost en mass with high armor... so good.