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Nenya97 wrote: -The bassie's true counterpart (manticore) does his job a hundred fold better.

If you praise Indirect Fire so much, you must agree that the Manticore would be a better choice in all regards except ap (of which is made up for easily by d3 large blasts of S10)

Is the manticore more effective against hordes and vehicles? Absolutely (it's why I used to bring 2).

Is it 100x better? No. Against vehicles, it's between 17% and 4 times better (depending wildly on how many shots the manticore gets and against which target types), while being substantially worse against space marines, all for costing 25% more.

I like manticores, don't get me wrong, but the existence of manticores has nothing to say about the basilisk. The basilisk didn't get WORSE just because the guard has more options now. It's still the tank that it was before - a cheap way to threaten vehicles and space marines.

..which is why when I took 2 manticores, my third HS slot was a bassie.

Two heavy bolter punishers are 400 points. That's three Vendettas or two manticores and a hydra.

I don't see how anyone can number crunch what is better comparing artillery pieces because honestly its more about what pieces are fielded with each artillery piece that dictate whats best.

If I am Melta heavy in my lists, I care little for Strength 10 AP weapons.

If I am light on Melta, then Strength 10 AP is huge!

I only use two artillery pieces, (Manticore and Colossus). When I have more then enough firepower to kill Tanks and Terminators you're damn right I'm bringing the Colossus. If I run light on Melta and Lasconnons etc and I need a good combo of strength, AP and template killing ability I go Manticore.

Opponents fear the Manticore, but they fear the Colossus more because two things happen, (in my games)
1. They can't hide units on an objective period
2. They absolutely have to kill the artillery which means I force the opponent to do something they may not want to do etc.

If you place your artillery well, (Manticores, Bassies, Colossus etc etc) you can either protect it or use it as bait. If someone tries to explain that its just dumb to sacrifice 140 to 160 points in a game I'll demonstrate just how rough it isn't on the Guard to do so.............................

Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


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Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

it's not that the punisher is going to do NOTHING against orks, it's that you could do so much MORE against them by spending the points on something else.

A pair of punishers puts down about 18 ork boyz in a single round of shooting, where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting, while also being better against a wider range of targets (like skimmers and heavy vehicles).

It's the difference between spending 400 points to seriously hurt one mob and then getting everything destroyed in a WAAAAUGH! the next turn, or making it so that there's nothing left on the field that can waaaugh you.

Almost all weapons have at least some level of effectiveness against most targets. It's how efficient, not effective, that is what determines the great choices from the good ones.

GalacticDefender wrote:Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


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Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

These are all in the IG codex. i'd start there before buying the tank....


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and what A-man said too!

Ailaros wrote:it's not that the punisher is going to do NOTHING against orks, it's that you could do so much MORE against them by spending the points on something else.

A pair of punishers puts down about 18 ork boyz in a single round of shooting, where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting, while also being better against a wider range of targets (like skimmers and heavy vehicles).

It's the difference between spending 400 points to seriously hurt one mob and then getting everything destroyed in a WAAAAUGH! the next turn, or making it so that there's nothing left on the field that can waaaugh you.

Almost all weapons have at least some level of effectiveness against most targets. It's how efficient, not effective, that is what determines the great choices from the good ones.

They don't have to be in units of 2, do they?


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alarmingrick wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


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Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

These are all in the IG codex. i'd start there before buying the tank....


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and what A-man said too!

And yes I'm getting the codex before the tank. The actual reason I'm getting a tank first is that I'll get it for christmas and I can actually afford infantry with my own money.

The thing that makes the manticore above par compared to many other pieces is its versatility.

I do not see a situation where you would not want d3 s10 ap4 large blasts for 160 pts that is not open topped like most other artillery.

Even in an army where you have meltaguns, you still need a way to kill large units of infantry, and provides a very efficient way to pick up the slack if your meltas get stopped in their tracks.

In an army that does not have meltaguns (you prolly are at least running some autocannons), it can do its anti-tank duty and, if needed, move on to softening up a unit to charge into if you wanna do power blobs.

There is little that this artillery can not do that another artillery piece can, and i would like to see how much better another artillery piece can perform over this in any given situation using the same rolls.

When it comes to blast templates, it really comes down to who can do the job the best when it hits (and even when it misses, it's still either another shot most likely)

What artillery does all the jobs the manticore can do better? Its key is in versatility and it might be the best in it.

Why has everyone suggested that the punisher be in a pair? It would only be 200 pts on its own, wouldn't it?

And is the plasma cannon LR good? Or even the standard LR demolisher?

I like the Demolisher, but not the Executioner, honestly. I've just never had a good experience with small blast templates with my IG. With my CSM, my Rhinos are able to bunch the enemy models up because they are moving up the field anyway, but my Chimeras like to hang back and shoot. Sacrificing a Chimera to make the Executioner's small blast templates effective doesn't seem right to me. Think about it this way: against a prepared opponent, the Executioner is 190 points for 3 S7 AP2 shots with a 50% accuracy. Getting those amazing 4 models per template shots either requires the entire army built around it, or more luck than one deserves.

I don't know anyone who fields an Executioner without the Plasma sponsons = 5 small templates on 2+ and 3+ armor is fantastic and is the only tank I get complaints about from opponents.

GalacticDefender wrote:Why has everyone suggested that the punisher be in a pair? It would only be 200 pts on its own, wouldn't it?

And is the plasma cannon LR good? Or even the standard LR demolisher?

Most people aren't recommending the Punisher at all, since it's one of the worst variants available. Others have chimed in saying that they've gotten good mileage out of them by taking a pair. The retort to that is that you are spending a ton of points (and making the tanks far easier to kill, especially considering the 24" range of the weapon) for relatively mediocre performance.

The Executioner is quite awesome, although you should go all out and buy it plasma sponsons. Otherwise, a battle tank with plasma sponsons can work just as well or better in fact.

The Demolisher is up to the individual. I don't like it because I think the value of high AV is diminished the closer you get to your opponent. Others swear by them.

Would a lascannon be good on the front? That's one extra high power shot to use against enemy tanks.

On what?

I usually don't bother paying 15 points for a single BS4 shot.

The Executioner doesn't need it since it gets way too expensive and S7 of the templates is adequate for dealing with transports.

Demolisher is best kept nice and cheap with a hull heavy flamer.

where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting

I want to see that...
You are the one wuth the careful 2" spacing arent you? So we have to assume about 3-4 hits ber shot, which will result in about 5 dead boyz (assuming 3 shots). No, manticores are not good against well played masses, they are however devastating firing directly on vehicles or bad played masses. But still 2 mobz is completely off...

And a pair of Hydras will down about 4 boyz each round so a good rolling manticore and 2 Hydras will do basically the same to orks that the punisher pair will do. They cost about the same, are easier to take out and can do more things (i.e. being actually dangerous to vehicles)

A pair of punishers will kill 9 Orks (we have to assume cover) or 6 Space Marines each round (if they have bolter sponsons and are stationary), which is a quite good performance. 2 executioners are worse against spaced SM and orks, but more versatile, because you could tank shock them together and also engage transports, termis and MCs to some result.

So of course, Punishers are not a top level unit (compared to Manticore or Hydra), but he is not a No Go. I estimate him above the regular LRBT actually.

IMO Basilisks are outclassed by Manticores. Sure they cost more but D3 shots per turn and Strength 10 makes them better vs vehicles and infantry. The basilisk's AP3 really isn't that important because of cover. Half the time a vehicle is destroyed it makes a nice crater for the former riders to hide in. The rest of the time they hide behind the vehicle and you have to fire in direct to negate that cover and if the marines advanced they probably inside your minimum range.

Punishers are just plain bad they should stay on your shelf indeed. Useless vs most vehicles and not very good vs infantry for their high cost. Now if punishers had a 20 shot autocannon then we would be talking.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I want to see that...

Done.

Just a single manticore taking out a single squad of boyz in one shot, but you get the idea.

Kirika wrote: Sure they cost more but D3 shots per turn and Strength 10 makes them better vs vehicles and infantry. The basilisk's AP3 really isn't that important because of cover.

20% more expensive and not particularly good against marines, who can't stay in cover the entire game, much less against IF.

The basilisk and the manticore don't have exactly the same role, just like how the basilisk and the colossus don't. Sure, over all, if I had to take just one artillery piece not knowing what I was up against, I'd make the points to take a manticore. This does not mean the basilisk is worthless in a well thought out list.

Ailaros wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:I want to see that...

Done.

Just a single manticore taking out a single squad of boyz in one shot, but you get the idea.

Yet the manticore did pretty much nothing the rest of the game, this was a relatively small sized squad of boys and most important of all anecdote =/= fact.

I'm not saying the Punisher is necessarily superior or the other way round, just adding some balance to an otherwise subjective statement of the manticore being superior.

That piece of anecdotal evidence may not be super convincing, but there is nothing subjective about the Manticore being superior points for points than the Punisher. It simply does more.

Just Dave wrote: anecdote =/= fact.

I am well aware of this. Nazdreg wanted it, though, so I obliged.

Of course, in the objective world of mathhammer, two manticores and a hydra is STILL way better than a pair of punishers. A single subjective example doesn't change this (regardless of which way it goes).

Manticore not really that good against marines? well, when the manticore can produce more dice to throw towards wounds, and in some cases, 3x as many, a 3+ armor save cannot keep up with the volume

Marines, in fact, can stay in cover the whole game or at least wait it out while heavy weapons suppress an open topped vehicle and once it's gone, its gone.
The bassie and colossus have their place in a tailored list against marines in the open/cover but I would think that the amount of shots possible by a manticore can really make up for the ap3, especially being able to produce enough wounds on the unit to cause wound allocation to the special weapons, causing the chance to actually do damage to the unit

Well, yeah, if every shot you're taking with the manticore rolls 3 shots and you roll a hit with all three scatter die every time, then yeah, it's a great marine killer. As that's not terribly likely to happen...

Plus, if marines are hiding in cover because they're afraid of your artillery, that means that you're in control of your opponent's movement phase. I can hardly think of something more useful for a skilled commander.

Ailaros wrote:Well, yeah, if every shot you're taking with the manticore rolls 3 shots and you roll a hit with all three scatter die every time, then yeah, it's a great marine killer. As that's not terribly likely to happen...

Plus, if marines are hiding in cover because they're afraid of your artillery, that means that you're in control of your opponent's movement phase. I can hardly think of something more useful for a skilled commander.

3 Manticore=Marine player spreads out a little bit and can ignore cover for the most part as the only weapons it will help against is lascannons and melta guns both of which have a low rate of fire. Marine player advances in the open with little to no penalty for being in the open, and thus advances fast and furious. If the lascannon/melta fire is think or there is a plasma squad on the field the MEQ squads who have had their transports shot out from under them move behind other transports that are already full of MEQ to shield them from low AP fire.

2 Mantircore + 1 Basilisk=MEQ player must choose between going into the open and risking Basilisk fire or slow their advance so they can hide in cover like a bunch of bedwetters. As a MEQ player with 2 different types of MEQ armies the worse possible thing I can do when facing IG would be to slow my advance, it gives the IG player an extra turn or 2 of shooting at long range. If I allow my opponent to dictate my movement phase the game is lost.

A Manticore and a basilisk have the same chance to hit... i am comparing the effects of how well a gun does when it hits an opponent which is obviously better than the basilisk.

Until the Manticore rolls a one for shots fired and the Basilisk obliterates the marines you were shooting at because it actually ignores their armour save...

Why does the basilisk ignore armor saves?

AP3

There is always alot of hatred for the punisher...

I love it... 20 shots (massive dakka dakka) its great!

It may have more effective counter-parts in the Guard force but for me it is by far the most enjoyable Russ to use.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:AP3

Wow I now feel like an idiot. I was thinking of special rules or something


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geordie09 wrote:There is always alot of hatred for the punisher...

I love it... 20 shots (massive dakka dakka) its great!

It may have more effective counter-parts in the Guard force but for me it is by far the most enjoyable Russ to use.

This. It just sounds fun to use. And looks cool.


My space marine army (and to a lesser extent, Tau) My only army that I take really seriously when considering competitiveness. (yes, that is IS a word. )

Done.

ok, I have seen the manticore killing a small squad, which wasnt even properly spaced or covered taken down in one shot. I havent seen him killing 2 WHOLE (30 men) mobz, which are well commanded. I know what a manticore can be capable of. Killing most of a 30 man mob with 3 shots was, what I did too (and even this is not representative, because my opponent chose to not space his models and he didnt even cover them... , but 2 mobs ist just plain impossible (unless they are in btb ) and highly exaggerated

Of course, in the objective world of mathhammer, two manticores and a hydra is STILL way better than a pair of punishers.

Given that target saturation from vendettas and chimeras is there, yes. Of course.
But merci for the HS section if they are on their own. A Russ will soak almost every long range weaponry, AV12 can be shut down quite easily.
The contrary is, that russes generally do less damage.
But if you deny the punisher, you deny the use of Russes at all (because I don't see him in such a bad state, that he underclasses the other variants (except for the executioner, MAYBE)).