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Thaylen wrote:Keep in mind that a single Tac squad w/ a flamer and combi-flamer in a rhino is more than a match for a maxed out boyz squad. The trick to maximize the flamer hits is to bait him into trying to klaw open your rhino. You want to park about 8-12" away for him after having moved 7" or more. He will then charge your rhino, stacking all of his boyz nice and neat up against the side. Given that he will need 6's to hit your rhino, your trasnport should be alive. Just get out (or drive if your rhino isn't immobilized) and line up some flamer shots, you should get about 10 or more hits per flamer.

Definitely would encourage this tactic as an ork player. And discourage it for your Space Marine Tactics. 30 boyz on the charge, 4 attacks each, hitting on 6, glancing on 6 - is probably still going to wreck/explode you. If you get immobilized at a higher initiative, the powerklaw is going to come in and auto-hit as well. And if they surround your vehicle, and then wreck it.....everything inside is dead.

Without custom tailoring your list (Which is the trademark of a bad player) to face orks

Librarian - 115
Combi-Melta

Landspeeder - 90
---Typhoon ML, HB

Landspeeder - 90
---Typhoon ML, HB

Landspeeder - 70
---MM, HF

Tac Squad (5) - 170
---Melta Gun
---Las/Plas Razorback

Tac Squad (5) - 170
---Melta Gun
---Las/Plas Razorback

Tac Squad (5) - 170
---Melta Gun
---Las/Plas Razorback

Dreadnought - 125
---TL Autocannon / TL Autocannon

1000

Yea it's not perfect (I'd like to have more troops). but at 1,000 points I'm kinda limited with what I can do.

Most people run a mix of LC and TH/SS terminators in just such an event.

i would never run a complete LC squad, but they are certaintly the preferred weapon against orks.


Even Diversified Nobs will have trouble.


only a full 10 strong Nob squad won't take any casualities from 5 charging LC terminators. Sure the nobs will probably win with all those PK attacks, but they are easily 3 times as expensive as the Terminators.

a full Nob squad, diversified, without Bikes is around 600 points.


a 7 man assault terminator squad(4LC, 3TH/SS) with a Chaplain in TDA is 420 points.

assuming the Terminators charge out of a LRC(which didn't do anything besides get them there)

16 LC attacks and 4 Power weapon attacks from the Chaplain. 8 LC hits, 2 PW hits. rerolls net another 4 LC and 1 PW hit.

12 LC hits and 3 PW hits. 4+ to wound. 6 LC wounds and 1.5 PW wounds. LC rerolls net another 3 wounds.

total is 10.5 wounds. assuming 3 Nobs have the Cybork upgrade for diversification. 1 wound saved. 9 wounds taken, no Nobs lost.

5 Nobs with Big Choppas(3 Have Kombi-weapons) 12 attacks. 6 Hits. 2+ to wound. 5 wounds. .8333 terminators die. assume 1 LC dies.

5 PK nobs and 3 TH/SS terminators go simultaniously. 10 PK attacks vs 9 TH attacks. 5 PKs hit. 6.75 THs hit with the reroll.

4 PK wounds. 1 gets past SS. 6 Th wounds. 4 get past cybork. 4 Nobs die.

so there are 6 Nobs left with 1 wound each vs 3 LC, 2 TH/SS and a Chaplain.

the nobs take a LD at -2 needing 5 on 2d6.


if they pass they will die next round to the LCs and Chaplain.

if they run they will likely keep running and/or get shot to death while running.

You sir are forgetting thanks to the waaagh banner (Which no right minded nob player would leave home without) Our Nobz are WS 5. & the bosspole says we get to take a wound (Armor & FNP apply) & reroll our Ld. which is 9 with the warboss.

Also you do not know how the best nobz are geared, or you have run into some poor ork players. If you are going to invest that much in a unit do it right.

(I always run them 6 strong & toss in a warboss) (180)
Doc (30)
PK (25)
BC, Waagh Banner (20)
BC, BossPole (10)
PK Kombi-Skorcha (30)
BC, Kombi Skorcha (10)
275 Points for 6
(To make it 10) (250)
PK, TL Shoota (30)
BC, TL Shoota (10)
BC (5)
BC, Kombi-Rokkit (10)
480 for 10 ('eavy Armor & Cybork on all)

Add in the warboss for 105
60
25 Klaw
15 Cybork
05 Eavy armor

They all have cybork bodies. If I'm sinking a ton of points into a unit I want to make damn sure they all have invulns & at least a 4+ armor.

Now all of a sudden all those nobz are Str6 minimum. Recalculate & you should have more accurate results.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Keep in mind that a single Tac squad w/ a flamer and combi-flamer in a rhino is more than a match for a maxed out boyz squad. The trick to maximize the flamer hits is to bait him into trying to klaw open your rhino. You want to park about 8-12" (I shoud have put 10-12" herer)away for him after having moved 7" or more. He will then charge your rhino, stacking all of his boyz nice and neat up against the side. Given that he will need 6's to hit your rhino, your trasnport should be alive. Just get out (or drive if your rhino isn't immobilized) and line up some flamer shots, you should get about 10 or more hits per flamer.

Definitely would encourage this tactic as an ork player. And discourage it for your Space Marine Tactics. 30 boyz on the charge, 4 attacks each, hitting on 6, glancing on 6 - is probably still going to wreck/explode you. If you get immobilized at a higher initiative, the powerklaw is going to come in and auto-hit as well. And if they surround your vehicle, and then wreck it.....everything inside is dead.

Keep in mind that around 10-12" the ork player will not be able to surround your rhino (Closer to 10-12" would be better, 8" is too close in hindsight). At the longer distance surrounding a rhino is just not easy as easy as you make it out to be (you can even tac another inch or two on if he hasn't used the WAAGH!!! yet). The ork will move 6" and assault 6" for a total of 12", if the front end of your rhino is around the 10-12" mark then they will fall short of wrapping it. Keep in mind most ork mobs are run at full coherency distance to minimize template damage (I tend to run dual vindicators and that encourages this behavior) so there will just not be enough bodies close enough to get anywhere near the full 30 boyz into combat. I would put the estimate at 10 or 12 boys at the extreme high estimate, and most competitive builds run shoota boys, so I'm only eating 3 per model (12x3=36 Hits on 6=6 hits, glances on 6=1 glance). The odds barely favor them getting 1 glance, which needs yet another 6 to stop me. If the orks are packed in enough they could get all 30 in on a charge, then I should just drive up and apply flamers.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:You sir are forgetting thanks to the waaagh banner (Which no right minded nob player would leave home without) Our Nobz are WS 5. & the bosspole says we get to take a wound (Armor & FNP apply) & reroll our Ld. which is 9 with the warboss.

Also you do not know how the best nobz are geared, or you have run into some poor ork players. If you are going to invest that much in a unit do it right.

(I always run them 6 strong & toss in a warboss) (180)
Doc (30)
PK (25)
BC, Waagh Banner (20)
BC, BossPole (10)
PK Kombi-Skorcha (30)
BC, Kombi Skorcha (10)
275 Points for 6
(To make it 10) (250)
PK, TL Shoota (30)
BC, TL Shoota (10)
BC (5)
BC, Kombi-Rokkit (10)
480 for 10 ('eavy Armor & Cybork on all)

Add in the warboss for 105
60
25 Klaw
15 Cybork
05 Eavy armor

They all have cybork bodies. If I'm sinking a ton of points into a unit I want to make damn sure they all have invulns & at least a 4+ armor.

Now all of a sudden all those nobz are Str6 minimum. Recalculate & you should have more accurate results.

Very well.

my same calcs for Terminators.

16 LC attacks and 4 Power weapon attacks from the Chaplain. 8 LC hits, 2 PW hits. rerolls net another 4 LC and 1 PW hit.

12 LC hits and 3 PW hits. 4+ to wound. 6 LC wounds and 1.5 PW wounds. LC rerolls net another 3 wounds.

total is 10.5 wounds. 3 saved by Cybork body. 7 wounds done. all on Nobs.

Nobs attack. 19 big choppa attacks(3 with 2 A, 5 with 2), approximatly 12.6 hits. approx 10.7 wounds. just under 2 wounds done to the terminators, take 1 wound on chaplain so 1 LC terminator down.

PKs and THs.

THs. 9 TH attacks. 6.75 THs hit including the reroll. 6 wounds. 4 get past Cybork and 3 Nobs and Warboss die(assuming 1 with PKs and 2 With Big Choppas)

PKs. still 10(IIRC Warboss has 4 Attacks) attacks. 6.6 hit. 5.5 wounds. 3 on TH/SS, 2 on LCs. 1 gets past 3++. .666 saved on LCs, rounding up to 1 so 1 gets past 5++. so 2 Terminators die.

Side note: Boss pole nets 2 additional wounds for PKs and none for the Big choppas

final result is a win for the Terminators. 11(15) Wounds done to orks(3 were added by ID) and 4 wounds taken on the marines.

Nobs take Ld test at -11. Insane courage with reroll.


At best the orks get to tie against a pretty common Terminator set up. if 10 Terminators and Chaplain show up they are in trouble. this could happen in a Shrike list which would mean Fleet terminators potentially infiltrating.

7 terminators and chaplain is 420 points. 10 Nobs with Warboss is 585 points. these 2 units Tie each other up for the first round and then the remaining LCs and Chaplain will kill off a bunch of the Nobs before they get to swing.

10 Terminators and chaplain would roll those Nobs for 45 less points then the 10 of them.

Why on earth would the ork player allocate wounds from THs on unwounded Nobz? Your wound allocation on the SS termies is also illegal...

Did i say he put the TH wounds on unwounded Nobs?


i do see your point about the SS wounds.

Also, since when does Nobz have 2 base attacks?

Tedurur, because he has to

ID in CC has to if possible has to be on an unwounded model

page 26, bottom right 2nd paragraph from the bottom

tedurur wrote:Also, since when does Nobz have 2 base attacks?

ummm, always?

3 of the Big choppa guys got 3 for having Sluggas


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Tedurur, because he has to

ID in CC has to if possible has to be on an unwounded model

page 26, bottom right 2nd paragraph from the bottom

and that actually brings up the Combat Rez for the marines up alot.

Now the orks lose by 11 needing Insane courage(with a reroll )

And this is why I do not like to mix the use of heavy arms and small arms on nobz. (Or mix assault terminator types for that matter)

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Tedurur, because he has to

ID in CC has to if possible has to be on an unwounded model

page 26, bottom right 2nd paragraph from the bottom

In a wound group yes, all Nobz are in separate groups so no you do not have to allocate wounds to unwounded Nobz.

Nobz also have 3 base attacks, boyz have 2...

it also illustrates the main weakness of Nobs. Ld.

without being able to take casualities and remain fearless(they are fearless if there is 10 and they have a warboss with them) they can bet broken with a morale test really easily.

This is precisely why I state that TH/SS terminators in a LR are one of the few things my nob bikers are afraid of lol. (I know you did the calc for footsloggers but even for bikes it won't change that much.) However, I fear we have digressed too far from the topic at hand.

Assault termies in a LR are definatly one way to fix the nobz problem. However in a 1k battle especially when they aren't bikers I feel there is a more effective way, (Check my list above) that is also more effective against other armies as well.

Yea the Ld does hurt, which is why the bosspole can be a life saver. Also the way mob rule is worded, I'll bring that up in YMDC shortly as it's been hotly debated where I play.

Grey Templar wrote:

tedurur wrote:Also, since when does Nobz have 2 base attacks?

ummm, always?

3 of the Big choppa guys got 3 for having Sluggas

Really my Nobz are base A3.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Tedurur, because he has to

ID in CC has to if possible has to be on an unwounded model

page 26, bottom right 2nd paragraph from the bottom

As all the nobs are from individual 'groups' one is never forced to allocate to an unwounded model. If there were two Nobs the same, one wounded one mot, then one has to take it from the unwonded model.



Anyway, I count 18 BC attacks? And 13 PK...
BC are two handed if you didn't know...
How does a BP make extra wounds for PK?
And who has the charge?

Sorry, i meant the Waagh banner.

and the terminators have the charge coming out of a LRC.



I can't find my ork codex. i could have sworn Nobs are Base 2 attacks. maybe i am wrong.

i actually though the Big choppa was usable with a slugga(haven't used my orks in a looooong time) so if Nobs ARE base attacks 3 then that number remains the same.


that would just result in 1 more wound for the orks combat rez. they still need Insane Courage not to run.

Grey Templar wrote:
i actually though the Big choppa was usable with a slugga

They do, so BC Slugga Nobz get A4.

orks are a good instance where you dont want thunder hammers. the higher init lightning claws are stronger. every ork you kill at init 4 is an ork who doesnt swing at init 1. not having to take a save at all is better than having to take a 3++ for a storm shield. AF

10 assault terminators + chaplain?

Why not just take 6 land speeder typhoons, with heavy flamers instead. It's nearly the same cost, and throws out a hell of a lot more death than those lightning claw guys.

Heh, even thunder fire cannons will outperform terminators against orks. 100 points for 60" range S6 AP5 blast4.


-Matt

well against the nobs with a 5++ and FNP I think they'd laugh off most the flamer wounds and just giggle and the Thunderfire cannon.

Lets make those Speeders Typhoons and take 2 sqdrn of 2
360 for 4 of them 36" HB range and 48" krak/frag fun

the heavy flamer wont work against nobs. volume of attacks strategies are fine against boyz but nobs dont care FNP

BC are two handed CCWs, one can't use another weapons while using 2 handed stuff, any special rule to avoid this would be fantastic, but I think people are going to struggle to find one

I Like it when my nobs have the charge after popping the Termis LR with my rolla... but that's just me

HawaiiMatt wrote:10 assault terminators + chaplain?

Why not just take 6 land speeder typhoons, with heavy flamers instead. It's nearly the same cost, and throws out a hell of a lot more death than those lightning claw guys.

Heh, even thunder fire cannons will outperform terminators against orks. 100 points for 60" range S6 AP5 blast4.


-Matt

Why not take both?


2 things i ALWAYS include in my lists are Assault terminators and Typhoons. i rarely run 10 and don't use Chaplains(mostly because i haven't got a TDA one ), but it still works.

i certaintly wouldn't go after Nobs i hadn't already softened up a bit, but we are testing things in a vacum here. krak missiles would definitly be sniping these guys.

Honestly though. If you are attacking Nobz, it is S8 or go home. You really shouldn't shoot them with anything that will allow them single wounds and FNP. They will just cheese allocations, and then make you feel like you are wasting shots by allocating future ID wounds on wounded models. If you absolutely must combine small arms fire with the big guns on Nobz, be sure to fire all of the big stuff first.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:It was mentioned above, I'm so sorry you forgot to read about it.

If it will ease your soul it can be 3lc/2th/ss per 5

is still better than all th/ss against orks.

But you just said 10 LC, which was a terrible joke.

Thaylen wrote:Honestly though. If you are attacking Nobz, it is S8 or go home.

+1

My current evolution of my all comers list is the following;

Vulkan
Librarian w/ Nullzone, Avenger

Tac Squad 10xMarines w/ PF, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Lascannon, Rhino, Dozerblade
Tac Squad 10xMarines w/ PF, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Lascannon, Rhino, Dozerblade
Tac Squad 10xMarines w/ PF, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino

Terminator Assault Squad 5xHammernators w/ Land Raider Redeemer, Extra Armor, Multi-Melta

Land Speeder w/ 2x MM
Land Speeder w/ 2x MM
Land Speeder w/ 2x MM

Vindicator w/ Siege Shield
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

15 KP, 2x LC, 2x Demolisher, 8x MM (7 of which are mobile), and many templates for hordes.

It weighs in at 2k points and has plenty of fast melta to put the hurt on tanks or MC (I was surpised at how well my speeders did in a recent game vs Nids, Dual melta speeders can burn away big bugs at a rather alarming rate) And lots of template and pie plate goodness to engage hordes.

With something like this you can take on most ork builds. The melta-speeders will put some pain on kan walls and wagon heavy lists (Trucks won't stand a chance). The vindis will cause your opponent to either spread out and dilute his forces, or stay together and die in droves. The vinidis also allow you a second option against battlewagons, and give you a good weapon vs Nob Bikers. Hammernators can be used to engage nobz or bikernobz and will utter destroy meganobz (but who takes those anyhow). As I have mentioned earlier, dual flamer tac squads can engage boyz squad in most situations. Their dedicated transport Redeemer will put a hurt on most boyz squads all by itself, or it can work the assault cannon and MM to de-mechanize the enemy.

You will find that if you practice all comer's list building, your lists will be stronger and your opponents will respect you more (or at least not have much ground to stand on when they try to claim your list was tailored.

On a side note, if anyone can poke a few holes in this list, feel free to do so. I am always looking for improvement. Right now I can see that my list does not have much in the way of 48" weaponry (only 2 Las Cannons). Expanding to 2500pts I would add a 4th Tactical Squad and 2 Rifleman dreads.

Now, to get off of my soap box.

Actually not to nitpick but the math does look a little better for the Nobz;

16LC attacks and 4 PW equals 12 hits resulting in 1 unsaved PW wound and and 6 unsaved LC wounds.

7 Nobz with BCs swing back at the termies casuing 14 hits and 1.94 unsaved wounds. Thats one LC termie and 0.94 TH Termies.

Then the Warboss and 3 PK Nobz strikes as does 2.06 TH Termies.
The Warboss and the PK Nobz get 14 attacks (since the boss should have an attack squig).
Thats 9.333 hits and 7.78 wounds. 3.78 must be taken on the LC termies and 4 gets to the TH/SS termies.
Thats 2.52 wounds on LC termies and 1.26 wounds on the TH termies

2.06 TH termies does 2.575 unsaved wounds on the Nobz.

Combat results:
Marines does 9.575 wounds and the Orks do 5.72 wounds.
lets say Orkz lose combat by 4 and take a morale test on ld 5.

The Orkz have a ~50% chance of staying locked in combat with the Bosspole.

Next round 7 Nobz and an unwounded Warboss gets to strike vs 1 Termie and an unwounded Chappy...




Vs 7 TH Termies and a Chappy the result will look like this:

Chaplin cause 1 unsaved wound

1.94TH Termies dies to the BCs

5.06 TH termies cause 6.325 Unsaved wounds=12.65 wounds for combat res

Warboss+Nobz kill 2.59 TH termies

Total combat resolution:
Marines 13.65, Orkz 4.53.

2.5 Termies left standing and an unwounded Chappy vs ~3-4 Nobz and a Warboss

this time the Orkz have a 5% chance of staying in combat so the Chappy will most likely run them down in a sweeping advance....

The chaplain can't run down the orks in a sweeping advance if he is attached to the terminator squad. And if you break him off of the terminator squad to allow the sweeping advance, you give up the use of the chaplain's rerolls.