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Although he does have a some what B&W stance on some things Matty M does raise a valid point. If after you leave school you wish to further educate yourselves to get a better job, should it be down to the rest of the public to pay for it? You could say it should be down to businesses to pay for it as they want the better educated people. In fairness you could also say that the government should help out, as better paid jobs means more taxes, but it all has to be balanced.

Well, surprise surprise, Matty whips out his Right Wing and delivers a snap judgement. What did you say about sitting down and thinking about the problem, Matty?

Anyway, my pointless joke notwithstanding, here's an idea:
Rather than raising tuition fees to their proposed level, why not do the following:
1. create more apprenticeships. This will put people into the industrial community and help stimulate the economy. It will also remove a lot of the people who go to university to get so-called "rubbish" degrees when combined with the next point. Why was this not considered?
2. Instead of wasting space at the Universities with these degrees, create more vocational centres for them to be learned at. Colleges and the like, you know what I mean. That way, universities can be reserved for the people who wish to enter an academic field, whereas these other institutions could be used for the other students.

Now I freely admit I'm no economist or politician, so feel free to attack my ideas as y'all see fit.

Society as a whole needs to do some serious self reflection though. Because, right now, vocational courses are seen as "less" than degrees, and consequently, kids don't apply themselves to them.

Don't worry Mattym, you have friends here my friend....................

Seriously why should I pay for some persons education? I've paid for it up until your 18. At 18 you have enough qualifications to get a pretty decent job. So if YOU CHOOSE to then further educate yourself in order to increase your earnings potential, then why shouldn't you pay for it? Its your choice. If you feel the debt you'll have is not worth it, then don't do it. Simple!!!!

I left school at 16, got an apprenticeship, and never looked back. I did a degree, paid for by myself, with 5 years night school. I worked to get my degree, why should I have my hard earned money taken from me to pay for some student to spend less than 10 hours a week in lectures, with a few hours in the library, and the rest dossing in a pub?

I'll duck whilst all the people throw books at me for suggesting that people work for a living and pay their own way instead of relying on handouts!!!!!!!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Tertiary education is a privelege

.

There is no natural law that says that tertiary education is a privilege.
It is a matter of political opinion.

This is indicitive of an unecessary privileged in education:


don't ask me why they have red numbered balls.
Some stupid public school tradition like buggery I'll wager.

It's better than having blue balls.

I went to public school.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Don't worry Mattym, you have friends here my friend....................

Seriously why should I pay for some persons education? I've paid for it up until your 18. At 18 you have enough qualifications to get a pretty decent job. So if YOU CHOOSE to then further educate yourself in order to increase your earnings potential, then why shouldn't you pay for it? Its your choice. If you feel the debt you'll have is not worth it, then don't do it. Simple!!!!

I left school at 16, got an apprenticeship, and never looked back. I did a degree, paid for by myself, with 5 years night school. I worked to get my degree, why should I have my hard earned money taken from me to pay for some student to spend less than 10 hours a week in lectures, with a few hours in the library, and the rest dossing in a pub?

I'll duck whilst all the people throw books at me for suggesting that people work for a living and pay their own way instead of relying on handouts!!!!!!!

Boo hoo hoo, my money for beer is going towards giving people an education.
Where do you think the doctors come from? The lawyers and researchers, engineers and scientists? University, funnily enough. Nobody's asking for your money; indeed, if that's what you think we students want, you're sorely mistaken.
We knew rises were inevitable; indeed, we expected them. What we weren't expecting was the huge rise in fees, whilst companies get huge tax breaks, public jobs are cut, and the NHS is taken apart piece by piece. Furthermore, we want to know why Nick Clegg made this damn pledge in the first place, when it must have been clear to him he couldn't keep it, and why he is now trying to present it as a perfectly reasonable decision to make as opposed to a massive U-turn.

Personally I think that graduates benefit society. I also believe, as KK has said, that many degrees should not exist.

I also think that it is wrong to simply lump costs on people - by all means, charge people for their university education, but let people and families prepare for it.

From what I understand, there are many funds and bank accounts, etc in the US that let parents put aside money to help pay for their children to go to university.

Gorskar, you have a very black and white outlook yourself right there mate.

All i am saying is, isnt getting a good education incentive enough?

And i really hate class warriors. This ridiculously childish notion of insulting public schoolboys is just plain absurd.

I am from Middlesbrough, my Dad was a welder, i didnt go to Uni and i joined the Royal Marines, and i am genuinelly embarrased by people from my "class" who claim to speak for me when they are throwing insults at people merely because they were born into nice upper class families.

There are two sides to every story, and im extremely tired of these grubby proles taking to the streets, calling rich people names and basically proving them right about us.

I mean, really, what on earth was the point in that photo?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:The lawyers and researchers, engineers and scientists?

Everyone that goes to school in the Britian is a Doctor, an engineer, or a scientist? Researcher is way to generic a term to be usefull here as every profession you just listed is a researcher, and many others.

I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that England owes me a free Masters Degree or Ph.D.

Ahtman wrote:
Everyone that goes to school in the Britian is a Doctor, an engineer, or a scientist?

No just most of us, some of us are superheroes, models or actors/actresses.

... no fething dentists though you'll note !

mattyrm wrote:Gorskar, you have a very black and white outlook yourself right there mate.

All i am saying is, isnt getting a good education incentive enough?

And i really hate class warriors. This ridiculously childish notion of insulting public schoolboys is just plain absurd.

I am from Middlesbrough, my Dad was a welder, i didnt go to Uni and i joined the Royal Marines, and i am genuinelly embarrased by people from my "class" who claim to speak for me when they are throwing insults at people merely because they were born into nice upper class families.

There are two sides to every story, and im extremely tired of these grubby proles taking to the streets, calling rich people names and basically proving them right about us.

I mean, really, what on earth was the point in that photo?

Well, perhaps that's a good thing. Who would balance out the other side?

Grubby Proles? Jeeeesus, how many stereotypes do you want to rattle off? The only ones deserving of that title are the twerps from the Social Workers. The students themselves came from all walks of life, and most of them were happy to peacefully protest.
Of course, as with all protests, the media chooses to focus only on the negatives, and ignore the positives. Well, some of the media does, anyway. Maybe not so much the broadsheets.

I'm sorry boys but lets take a reality check here. Everyone in the UK is currently facing budget issues due to the current climate we are in. My company just announced 1,400 redundancies because of the Defence spending cuts. Benefits are being cut (about time to!), Council spending cuts, Government contracts cut / canceled.

But think of the poor poor students......... asking them to pay more for them CHOOSING to go to university for further education rather than getting into the workplace. Yes Doctors etc come from universities, but everyone has a choice. If you want to be a Doctor, then you CHOOSE to go to uni and the reap the rewards of your degree. My point is, its a choice.

I really want a new Merc CLK, but at 46,000GBP, I can't afford one given my current lifestyle. I have 2 choices, a) Make the sacrifices necessary to be able to buy one, b) go without. What I won't do is trash the Capitol City demanding the Government buys me one when my current 8yr old car is perfectly adequate for my needs.

At 16/18 your education is perfectly adequate to enter the labour market. If you Choose to then continue your education, then surely its your choice and you should pay.

Doctors come from university yes, but equally cleaners come from High School. Everyone has a choice.

Gorskar you dont get it do you? I AM a poor person, hence the use of the term "grubby proles" you know, in an cynical ironic way?

Of course i dont actually speak like that. Im from the Boro. Its a bit like Geordie only we dont sound like we are having a stroke.

And you own a coat.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Boo hoo hoo, my money for beer is going towards giving people an education.
Where do you think the doctors come from? The lawyers and researchers, engineers and scientists? University, funnily enough. Nobody's asking for your money; indeed, if that's what you think we students want, you're sorely mistaken.

Well if monies not the issue what are you windging about?????

My money is taken, by the Government!

And if like your post suggests, you are indeed a student, when you get a full time job and see 30% of your salary disappear through tax and NI, then come back and tell me your fine about people not having to work for anything and being given everything free.

TheSecretSquig wrote:I'm sorry boys but lets take a reality check here. Everyone in the UK is currently facing budget issues due to the current climate we are in. My company just announced 1,400 redundancies because of the Defence spending cuts. Benefits are being cut (about time to!), Council spending cuts, Government contracts cut / canceled.

But think of the poor poor students......... asking them to pay more for them CHOOSING to go to university for further education rather than getting into the workplace. Yes Doctors etc come from universities, but everyone has a choice. If you want to be a Doctor, then you CHOOSE to go to uni and the reap the rewards of your degree. My point is, its a choice.

I really want a new Merc CLK, but at 46,000GBP, I can't afford one given my current lifestyle. I have 2 choices, a) Make the sacrifices necessary to be able to buy one, b) go without. What I won't do is trash the Capitol City demanding the Government buys me one when my current 8yr old car is perfectly adequate for my needs.

At 16/18 your education is perfectly adequate to enter the labour market. If you Choose to then continue your education, then surely its your choice and you should pay.

Doctors come from university yes, but equally cleaners come from High School. Everyone has a choice.

Seeing as even Matty is capable of acknowledging points and not being snotty about it, I'm forced to wonder just what's making you so angry.
Again, you've failed to read my post, as you've just made the same comments again without even a hint of acknowledgement.
May I suggest you go back and read it?


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mattyrm wrote:Gorskar you dont get it do you? I AM a poor person, hence the use of the term "grubby proles" you know, in an cynical ironic way?

Of course i dont actually speak like that. Im from the Boro. Its a bit like Geordie only we dont sound like we are having a stroke.

Ah? Fair enough then. It's hard to read humour in a post on the internet. My apologies.

SilverMK2 wrote:From what I understand, there are many funds and bank accounts, etc in the US that let parents put aside money to help pay for their children to go to university.

Yeah, planning ahead is key for your child going to University in the states. When you have a kid, you should start putting money away right then for his/her college (we use the words college/university for the same thing in the states). Many parents pay for their kids to go to school, but most students are forced to take on that burden alone. There are grants and scholarships that you can apply, and not all of them are need-based. There are need-based scholarships, grants, and loans, too. There are also low interest loans that anyone can get, and this is what most student's turn to. We only recently finished paying off my wife's school loan. Since the interest rate was so low, we would pay the minimum on it and focus our money on things like car loans, our house and my Warhammer 40k collection.

Our public universities do get tax money from the state they're located, but that doesn't cover everything. They, like private universities, need the tuition fees from the students, donations from alumni, grants from business, cookie sales at the student union, and so forth to stay ahead.

I can understand the UK students' and parents' frustration at that prospect of their tuition fees tripling in such a short time span. If you're a parent planning on your child attending university and have set asside an account to pay for 1200 a year for your kids just to find out that will only pay for the first year and a half, you are going to have to make some hard decisions.

I have no sympathy for the jackasses that attacked the royals or the other anarchists that are creating all of the hoo-ha.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'm forced to wonder just what's making you so angry.

Who's angry? I'm at a loss how you can detect emotion.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'm forced to wonder just what's making you so angry.

Who's angry? I'm at a loss how you can detect emotion.

Well, given that you keep making the same points with a degree of emphasis and using words that generally connote anger, I took an educated guess.
Mind you, it's still guesswork.

Well I'm off to bed, got work in 8hrs! But before I go, just heard a new joke........................

I always wanted to take part in a major riot, unfortunately I didn't get high enough grades at school..........

I lol-ed.

Night night!

In response, I have one for you:

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road?
Because he made a personal pledge saying he wouldn't.



My God, it's come to poor jokes. Well, there goes any legitimacy in this argument.

reds8n wrote:... no fething dentists though you'll note !

A few people have pointed out that fee's will only hit £9000 in very select courses, mainly prestige universities which offer the sort of degrees where the almost guaranteed job after makes a £30k debt about as relevent as a towel for a fish

My missus went to uni for a law degree because she wanted to be a lawyer, later on she decided it wasn't for her so re-trained as a teacher, she has worked her way up to a head of department (English) and is earning £40k a year. If she wanted to she could quite easily clear a £30k in 3 years and that is whilst paying a mortgage, running a car and supporting me through college.

A previous girlfriend went to the uni round the corner from her house to study psychology because she wanted to experience the uni lifestyle. Whilst there she got behind on her assignments so I wrote one for her. I got a 2.1. I have no accademic qualifications beyond GCSE level. This girl now works in a care home cleaning old peoples bottoms. Nothing wrong with that, but it hardly requires a degree.

My point is that there are two types of people who want to go to uni. Type 1 are those who want the experience or just want to tell people that they have been and have a degree, in which case it is little more than delaying work for three years whilst they indulge their personal interests. I can't see it being in the public interest to fund this. Type 2 are people who have a firm career path in mind and are using a degree to facilitate it. Pretty much and job in which a degree is a pre-requisite will pay a salary where a £30k debt is easily payable over a period of time.

Other forms of further education require all but the very poorest to pay their way, why should university be any different. In an ideal world all forms of education would be free, all vegetables would taste of cake and only good looking girls would wear tight fitting clothes, sadly we don't live in an ideal world.

Kilkrazy wrote:You can make it worth it a lot sooner by emigrating as soon as you graduate to get higher paid job in a country where you won't be penalised extra for the crime of being a graduate.

I'm pretty sure Visa is gonna find you in Sweden or Australia. Thats not gonna work.

I'm not sure how Visa knowing you live in Sweden will help the UK government charge you a graduate tax.


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squilverine wrote:

Other forms of further education require all but the very poorest to pay their way, why should university be any different.

Apprenticeships don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:From what I understand, there are many funds and bank accounts, etc in the US that let parents put aside money to help pay for their children to go to university.

Yeah, planning ahead is key for your child going to University in the states. When you have a kid, you should start putting money away right then for his/her college (we use the words college/university for the same thing in the states). Many parents pay for their kids to go to school, but most students are forced to take on that burden alone. There are grants and scholarships that you can apply, and not all of them are need-based. There are need-based scholarships, grants, and loans, too. There are also low interest loans that anyone can get, and this is what most student's turn to. We only recently finished paying off my wife's school loan. Since the interest rate was so low, we would pay the minimum on it and focus our money on things like car loans, our house and my Warhammer 40k collection.

Our public universities do get tax money from the state they're located, but that doesn't cover everything. They, like private universities, need the tuition fees from the students, donations from alumni, grants from business, cookie sales at the student union, and so forth to stay ahead.

I can understand the UK students' and parents' frustration at that prospect of their tuition fees tripling in such a short time span. If you're a parent planning on your child attending university and have set asside an account to pay for 1200 a year for your kids just to find out that will only pay for the first year and a half, you are going to have to make some hard decisions.

I have no sympathy for the jackasses that attacked the royals or the other anarchists that are creating all of the hoo-ha.

The hard decision a lot of people will make is that they won't go to university.

That doesn't worry if it is the Hairdressing degree applicants who decide not to go. I am more worried that the doctors, engineers, and other hard core degrees won't go.