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yakface wrote:
I'd like to dispute a couple of notions that keep getting bandied about regarding Power From Pain.


1) That because the rule says 'Dark Eldar unit with this rule' people are assuming that this means the entire unit has to be made up from models that have the Power From Pain special rule. While this interpretation is completely and totally valid, so is the interpretation that only a single model in the unit has the Power From Pain special rule.

The phrase 'Dark Eldar unit with this rule' can mean either: the entire unit must have the rule or at least one model in the unit has the rule. Both are valid interpretations.

For example, if you say 'any classroom that has the ebola virus must be quarantined', you should probably be more specific ( ) because that can easily be interpreted as meaning if *any* student in the classroom has the ebola virus then the entire class must be quarantined OR it could mean that the entire classroom needs to have the virus for them to be quarantined (although in this case I think most people would lean towards the former).

But the point is, we have two valid interpretations when some people are claiming there is only one.


2) The idea that a unit that has a pain token benefits from it even if they don't have ANY models with the Power From Pain rule in the unit is false, IMHO. The reason I say this is because pain tokens on their own do not have any rules. Their only purpose is to unlock abilities via the 'Power From Pain' special rule. But if no model in a unit has the Power From Pain special rule, then what permission does a unit have to even look at the 'Power From Pain' special rule to see what ability the pain tokens give the unit?

The answer is, they don't! If a unit doesn't contain at least a single model with 'Power From Pain' then it has no permission to use the 'Power From Pain' special rule, and that special rule is what gives pain tokens their meaning.

So I believe that the rules clearly do not allow for a unit that has no models with 'Power From Pain' to benefit from any pain tokens they have.

I disagree. In the rules for Power From Pain, it outlines what rules a Pain token has and how it works with units. You need Power From Pain to generate Pain Tokens, but not to benefit from them. Also, a "Dark Eldar unit" is any unit in the Dark Eldar Codex, imo. As opposed to an "Eldar" unit or an "Ork" unit, which are not from said Codex. That is the most logical way to view that, as opposed to attempting to define what models in the Codex are Dark Eldar and whatnot - which requires assumptions about intent of the rules.

Just my thoughts on it. Seems pretty straight-forward to me and everyone in my group.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

I disagree. In the rules for Power From Pain, it outlines what rules a Pain token has and how it works with units. You need Power From Pain to generate Pain Tokens, but not to benefit from them. Also, a "Dark Eldar unit" is any unit in the Dark Eldar Codex, imo. As opposed to an "Eldar" unit or an "Ork" unit, which are not from said Codex. That is the most logical way to view that, as opposed to attempting to define what models in the Codex are Dark Eldar and whatnot - which requires assumptions about intent of the rules.

Just my thoughts on it. Seems pretty straight-forward to me and everyone in my group.

But that stance is acting like 'Power From Pain' is an army-wide special rule or as if their is some 'pain token' special rule in existence, when neither is true.

'Power From Pain' is NOT an army special rule, it is a special rule for only the units that have it.

Some units have Power From Pain (units with a model that has the special rule) and therefore have access to the Power From Pain special rule text, those that don't...don't!

Again, there are no rules for Pain Tokens except for in the 'Power For Pain' special rule, which not all units have. So if a unit happens to have pain tokens on it, but doesn't have 'Power From Pain', why would you get to use ANYTHING from the 'Power From Pain' special rule? If the answer is: because the 'Power From Pain' rule says so, that cannot be a valid answer because the unit does NOT HAVE 'Power From Pain' in this case.


So just to clarify, people are acting as if a pain token = power from pain = special rule derived from Power from Pain, which is false.

The actual formula is: Power From Pain + Pain Token = special rule derived from Power From Pain.



So again, the rules for what Pain Tokens do is part of the 'Power From Pain' special rule. If the unit does not have 'Power From Pain' then it does not get to do anything with the Pain Tokens it has (because it doesn't have access to the rules that allow the pain tokens to do anything).

So if a Haem joins the clowns, they get his pain token and power from the pain. Should the Haem get whacked, they still keep the token, but it doesn't do anything... yet.

The next turn, I join another Haem into the squad, and he brings in another pain token; now the unit has 2, and the Haem gives them through power of the pain, two abilities.


Seems to make sense to me. You keep the tokens, but only use them when you have a model with the rule. Because you can get 6 IC's, it's not even hard to do.

-Matt

But there remains the argument that pain tokens are work just like "within synapse range".

A Tyranid model with the Synapse Creature model causes other units to gain the "within synapse range" status, and they benefit from that status even though they don't have the Synapse Creature rule.

A Chronos model generates a pain token and gives it to a unit without Power from Pain. The Chronos' special rules define what the token does, just like the Synapse Creature's special rules define what "within synapse range" does.

yakface wrote:

But that stance is acting like 'Power From Pain' is an army-wide special rule or as if their is some 'pain token' special rule in existence, when neither is true.

'Power From Pain' is NOT an army special rule, it is a special rule for only the units that have it.

Some units have Power From Pain (units with a model that has the special rule) and therefore have access to the Power From Pain special rule text, those that don't...don't!

Again, there are no rules for Pain Tokens except for in the 'Power For Pain' special rule, which not all units have. So if a unit happens to have pain tokens on it, but doesn't have 'Power From Pain', why would you get to use ANYTHING from the 'Power From Pain' special rule? If the answer is: because the 'Power From Pain' rule says so, that cannot be a valid answer because the unit does NOT HAVE 'Power From Pain' in this case.


So just to clarify, people are acting as if a pain token = power from pain = special rule derived from Power from Pain, which is false.

The actual formula is: Power From Pain + Pain Token = special rule derived from Power From Pain.



So again, the rules for what Pain Tokens do is part of the 'Power From Pain' special rule. If the unit does not have 'Power From Pain' then it does not get to do anything with the Pain Tokens it has (because it doesn't have access to the rules that allow the pain tokens to do anything).

Then you also have to do that with Sharing the Pain. Right. You could only share pain tokens with a unit that has the rule Power from Pain. So the only way a unit of Harlequins, by them selves, would ever have a Pain Token is if a IC died while in the unit. Right?

Now, I originally interpreted the Power From Pain rule as "A unit with this rule gets these benefits depending on how many tokens it has," but rereading it just now, it explicitly states that the pain tokens themselves grant the rules, and Power From Pain is just the usual prerequisite to generating them. The only ambiguity there is whether an entire unit must have the rule, or if a only any model in the unit needs it to generate tokens. It's "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit," not "A unit with Power From Pain gets a special rule depending on how many pain tokens it has."

solkan wrote:But there remains the argument that pain tokens are work just like "within synapse range".

A Tyranid model with the Synapse Creature model causes other units to gain the "within synapse range" status, and they benefit from that status even though they don't have the Synapse Creature rule.

A Chronos model generates a pain token and gives it to a unit without Power from Pain. The Chronos' special rules define what the token does, just like the Synapse Creature's special rules define what "within synapse range" does.

DISCLAIMER: I'm moving shortly, and my Tyranid codex is in the bottom of a box somewhere, so this is from memory. It is possible that the rules are worded in a way that makes my observations her invalid, but I believe I am correct. I cannot, however, provide page references.

The other Tyranid units DO have the "Instinctive behavior" rule which checks whether they are in synapse range and applies effects accordingly. They are NOT being affected by a rule which they don't have, but by the one they do.

As such, the situation is NOT analogous.
The non-synapse Tyranids have a rule (IB) which looks for other models within range having the Synapse Creature rule, and has an effect on them based on the presence or absence of such a model.
The non-power-from-pain Dark Eldar do not have any rule which would grant them a benefit or otherwise affect them for having a token.

solkan wrote:But there remains the argument that pain tokens are work just like "within synapse range".

A Tyranid model with the Synapse Creature model causes other units to gain the "within synapse range" status, and they benefit from that status even though they don't have the Synapse Creature rule.

A Chronos model generates a pain token and gives it to a unit without Power from Pain. The Chronos' special rules define what the token does, just like the Synapse Creature's special rules define what "within synapse range" does.

I don't see that as analogous. The Synpase Creature rules state:

"Synpase Creatures and Tyranid units that are within 12" of a uSynapse Creature are said to be within synapse range. A unit that is within synapse range is not subject to the Instinctive Behavior rule (see below ) and gains the Fearless rule..."


So the rule itself clearly specifies what it does to Synapse Creatures and all units within range.


In the case of Power From Pain it just tells that a unit with the power can generate tokens and then what those tokens do. There is absolutely no indication that a unit without Power From Pain benefits from the special rule when no models in the unit have Power From Pain, which is the big difference between the Synapse Creature special rule and Power from Pain.

ToBeWilly wrote:
Then you also have to do that with Sharing the Pain. Right. You could only share pain tokens with a unit that has the rule Power from Pain. So the only way a unit of Harlequins, by them selves, would ever have a Pain Token is if a IC died while in the unit. Right?

That's not what I read. When the IC is joined to the Harlequins the unit has Power From Pain, so follows the rules for Power From Pain including getting bonuses from Pain Tokens. When the IC leaves the unit you then follow the rules for splitting up tokens as normal.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Now, I originally interpreted the Power From Pain rule as "A unit with this rule gets these benefits depending on how many tokens it has," but rereading it just now, it explicitly states that the pain tokens themselves grant the rules, and Power From Pain is just the usual prerequisite to generating them. The only ambiguity there is whether an entire unit must have the rule, or if a only any model in the unit needs it to generate tokens. It's "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit," not "A unit with Power From Pain gets a special rule depending on how many pain tokens it has."

You would be correct if 'Power From Pain' were an army special rule that applied to all units in the army...but it isn't! It is a special rule that is denoted in specific unit entries.

So I ask again, if a Harlequin unit (for example) has a pain token on it (from a Chronos Engine, for example), what business do you have accessing the 'Power From Pain' special rules to see what the Pain Tokens do for the unit?

Pain tokens DO NOT give units 'Power From Pain', people! They give units that have 'Power From Pain' additional special abilities! If the unit doesn't have Power From Pain then any pain tokens that somehow get on the unit do absolutely nothing until the unit is joined by an IC that does have Power From Pain (as then the unit would then have Power From Pain).

None of my Eldar have rules for Markerlight tokens, nor the Tau firing at them having a rule about them, but that's never stopped them from suffering from the effects.

Also, within the rules of Power from Pain it says "Each Pain Token confers a special rule to the entire unit..." not "Each unit with Power from Pain and Pain Tokens confers a special rule to the entire unit..."

You might find that second wording to be superfluous, but it's how all the other rules on that page are worded.

DarknessEternal wrote:None of my Eldar have rules for Markerlight tokens, nor the Tau firing at them having a rule about them, but that's never stopped them from suffering from the effects.

Also, within the rules of Power from Pain it says "Each Pain Token confers a special rule to the entire unit..." not "Each unit with Power from Pain and Pain Tokens confers a special rule to the entire unit..."

You might find that second wording to be superfluous, but it's how all the other rules on that page are worded.

The Tau Markerlight rules give rules for the Tau player using them...they are not a UNIT SPECIAL RULE like Power From Pain is.

And again the rule you quoted was from the 'Power From Pain' special rule, which is a rule that only some units have. Pain Tokens do not grant 'Power From Pain' to units that do not have the special rule! If a unit has 'Power From Pain' and it has pain tokens then you look at the Power From Pain' special rule to see what the pain tokens do.

I kind of look at Power From Pain the same way as the "Eye of the Gods" rule from Warriors of Chaos. It is a unit by unit rule, but then all models that can must declare a challenge because of the one sentence in the rule that states that, whether they have the Eye of the Gods rule or not.

The Power From Pain rule entry details two things: how pain tokens are generated ("Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this rule kills a non-vehicle enemy unit" and "other means - some units even start the game with one!"), and what pain tokens do ("Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below."). It only mentions itself as a prerequisite for generating them by destroying an enemy unit, while stating that the special rules are granted by the tokens themselves, not by the interaction of a model with Power from Pain and a number of tokens.

It's not as clear as it should be, but when it comes down to it, a unit without Power from Pain will only get a token under contrived circumstances (starting it with a haemonculus (oh look, you can get feel no pain for just 50 points with this slow, lackluster model you'll have to immediately detach to prevent the unit from getting bogged down! I mean, that's even better than IG units that can get that for 30 points, right?), or feeding it one with a cronos (just get this expensive monstrous creature close enough to attack, then hope it manages to kill something and that the unit you want it to buff happens to be within 12", while your opponent will be doing everything in their power to bring it down)), and honestly, if someone's going to that much trouble and expense, they've payed for whatever benefits the unit would get ten times over. Only three units have models that lack Power from Pain, and they're either much more expensive (harlequins), they have feel no pain on both units that lack Power from Pain and furious charge on one and are somewhat more expensive (archon court), or they're expensive, comparatively slow and almost completely lacking in ranged capability (beastmasters; also sort of harlequins again, since they have short ranged weapons and lack both the ability to take a dedicated transport and the 12" charge of beasts).

Fluffwise, I suppose it doesn't make much sense for the beasts themselves, Sslyth, or Ur-ghul to benefit from the energy the eldar (and in the case of the medusae a psychic vampire that inhabits the webways and is possessing an eldar while present in the game) get from killing, but I'd think the harlequins do; they're not at the point where they revel in slaughter the same way, but neither are they the ascetic warriors of the craftworlds who survive solely by denying their natural inclination towards depravity, so it makes sense for them to be energized when a cronos dumps the life force of its latest kills into them.

Yak - fairly certain there was a thread about DCCW, where the consensus was you still got the extra attack even if the ewapon was not listed as a DCCW, despite the only rles allowing this are under the heading "DCCW"

This is the same thing - the rules for pain tokens are under another header, but you have permission to read this rule because you have a token.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This is the same thing - the rules for pain tokens are under another header, but you have permission to read this rule because you have a token.

Just like Night Spinner tokens.

yakface wrote:


2) The idea that a unit that has a pain token benefits from it even if they don't have ANY models with the Power From Pain rule in the unit is false, IMHO. The reason I say this is because pain tokens on their own do not have any rules. Their only purpose is to unlock abilities via the 'Power From Pain' special rule. But if no model in a unit has the Power From Pain special rule, then what permission does a unit have to even look at the 'Power From Pain' special rule to see what ability the pain tokens give the unit?

The answer is, they don't! If a unit doesn't contain at least a single model with 'Power From Pain' then it has no permission to use the 'Power From Pain' special rule, and that special rule is what gives pain tokens their meaning.

So I believe that the rules clearly do not allow for a unit that has no models with 'Power From Pain' to benefit from any pain tokens they have.

This is the best interpretation of the rule. Logically you cannot benefit from the power of pain unless you have the rule Power from Pain!
If you were playing a game with some IG you couldn't just through tokens on them and expect them to have Feel no Pain powers now.