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How does this work? As far as I can understand RAW on the internett (namly dakkadakka) the entier unit gets feel no pain as long as one model with the rule is still in the unit. This discusion comes up with the bestmaster.

But what if an independent character joins the unit, do the entier unit have feel no pain? This could be a great way to keep your harlequeens safe for the WWP delivery system. And just dis-atach the homunkely before you run/charge your oponent.

This is correct; the entire unit benefits from any Pain tokens; only Full units with Power from Pain(as in every model has the rule) Generates new tokens.

Now while you can drop a token onto the hareys by detaching the IC that has a pain token, the Harleys would no longer benefit from the token because no models in the unit have power from pain(IIRC, let me double check this)

Yes, but joining a hero to the harlequens and getting them one pain token is enough that all the harlequeens will have a +4 feel no pain save in adition to the cover save?

that is correct; Haemonculi also start the game with 1 Pain token and when joining(or starting the game joined) then leaving the squad he can leave behind his pain token.

BTW Any unit with a pain token benefits from the Token's special rules, none in the squad need Power from Pain for the unit to benefit(getting them the token can sometimes be difficult of course). I just double checked the Codex.

Errrr...that just sounds weard. I thought the unit needed feel no pain for using the pain tocens?

Only a unit with the Power From Pain rule can GENERATE pain tokens.

But the codex explicitly states that EVERY model in a unit benefits from any pain tokens with that unit.

Mannahnin wrote:Only a unit with the Power From Pain rule can GENERATE pain tokens.

But the codex explicitly states that EVERY model in a unit benefits from any pain tokens with that unit.

I thought that too, but a friend of mine brought up a good point.

Why would the Beastmasters have Power through Pain, and leave the beasts without it?

It seems like the Beasts need the Beastmasters (or an IC with the rule) in order to benefit from Feel No Pain - otherwise you'd just kill off your useless beastmasters when allocating wounds, and be left with the incredibly overpowered beasts. I doubt it would be a misprint, as all three beast types do not have the rule. Just something to think about.

The Beastmasters are indeed a big open question.

Note that if the Haemy left the Quin unit they wouldn't have FNP. The unit wouldn't contain a model that has Power from Pain so the Haemy would have to stick with the unit if they wanted to be able to gain FNP, furious charge and fearless.

P25 of the DE codex, when discussing Power From Pain and Sharing the Pain, twice states that the special rule is conferred "to the entire unit" and that "all models in that unit will have..." It also states that when an IC leaves a unit, the pain token can be left behind, and does not put a restriction on leaving it with a unit who themselves have the Power From Pain rule.

Magnalon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Only a unit with the Power From Pain rule can GENERATE pain tokens.

But the codex explicitly states that EVERY model in a unit benefits from any pain tokens with that unit.

I thought that too, but a friend of mine brought up a good point.

Why would the Beastmasters have Power through Pain, and leave the beasts without it?

It seems like the Beasts need the Beastmasters (or an IC with the rule) in order to benefit from Feel No Pain - otherwise you'd just kill off your useless beastmasters when allocating wounds, and be left with the incredibly overpowered beasts. I doubt it would be a misprint, as all three beast types do not have the rule. Just something to think about.

Fluff.

Only the Beastmasters are sentient enough to be able to take the souls of their enemies and put the pain into the beasts. The beasts are just that, beasts, they know nothing of pain nor suffering at the level needed to turn it into a tangible thing that the Dark Eldar can use. Heck, no other sentient race can do this besides Dark Eldar!

It may be mind blowing, but the Dark Eldar codex is an army based book where fluff and rules blend perfectly for an awesome table top experience.

You'll notice this too in the Court of the Archon. Only the intelligent Court members have this ability, while the other two stupid, barely sentient creatures cannot.

Gorechild wrote:Note that if the Haemy left the Quin unit they wouldn't have FNP. The unit wouldn't contain a model that has Power from Pain so the Haemy would have to stick with the unit if they wanted to be able to gain FNP, furious charge and fearless.

The PfP rule specifically states that models in a unit the have a Pain token gain the abilities. No requirement for any of the pain token abilities is ever given that the models(any models) in the unit must have Power from pain in order to benefit.

While it is true the halies can never gain tokens on their own, nor even with an attached IC with PfP; an attached IC that already has a pain token can "share the Pain" and leave them with a token that grants the benefits.

Mannahnin wrote:P25 of the DE codex, when discussing Power From Pain and Sharing the Pain, twice states that the special rule is conferred "to the entire unit" and that "all models in that unit will have..." It also states that when an IC leaves a unit, the pain token can be left behind, and does not put a restriction on leaving it with a unit who themselves have the Power From Pain rule.

It's blatantly obvious that the power from pain rule is just badly worded and the intention was that neither Harlequins or beasts can ever benefit from FNP/FC/etc. Currently the raw interpretation is as you described, and it's a complete coin flip whether GW decides to go with the RAW as it is or just errata a couple extra words into the rule to change everything.

I guess that is the rule but it doesn't seem right. Seems like only people with the rule should gain the benefits...

Power From Pain is not badly worded at all.

What you guys are forgetting is that Fluff plays a role in the Dark Eldar rules through out the entire book. I know you Marine/IG players out there are not used to mixing fluff with rules, but the Dark Eldar codex is an example of this done perfectly. Power From pain, Reavers, Lelith, etc...

What is Power from Pain? It is the ability to draw out pain/souls from the enemy and taking it into yourself and your allies to make everyone stronger during the heat of battle.

The Beastmaster unit is a perfect example of this. The Beastmaster is the one who is able to translate the Pain into Power for his unit. Same goes with the Court of the Archon.

Here we have an example of a perfectly worded rule, but taken WAAY out of context by people who just aren't understanding WHY the rule is represented as it is in various units.

1) Models with "Power From Pain" are able to get Pain Tokens.

2) ANY UNIT can use Pain Tokens.

3) Beastmasters are the masters. Beastmasters are the one able to harness the Pain from others, and translate that Pain into something usable for the Beasts. If the Beastmasters die, then the Beasts cannot get any new Pain Tokens as they do not have the Power From Pain rule, but they can still use previous Pain inflicted upon them for the rest of the battle. They are just stupid, angry beasts!

I honestly am having a hard time trying to understand why this rule is confusing so many people.

Therion - except I think it is blatantly obvious the other way around.

Thats the problem with "RAI", there is never a single interpretation everyone agrees on.

Therion wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:P25 of the DE codex, when discussing Power From Pain and Sharing the Pain, twice states that the special rule is conferred "to the entire unit" and that "all models in that unit will have..." It also states that when an IC leaves a unit, the pain token can be left behind, and does not put a restriction on leaving it with a unit who themselves have the Power From Pain rule.

It's blatantly obvious that the power from pain rule is just badly worded and the intention was that neither Harlequins or beasts can ever benefit from FNP/FC/etc. Currently the raw interpretation is as you described, and it's a complete coin flip whether GW decides to go with the RAW as it is or just errata a couple extra words into the rule to change everything.

I have to disagree with you. In my opinion, it's blatantly obvious that it's supposed to work exactly as the rule describes. I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that Beasts and Harlequins can benefit from the PfP rule; without that ability, both units really aren't all that great, and with the ability, they are both worth fielding without being overpowering.

I disagree with Therion, Nosferatu, and Saldiven about the clarity of the intent. Especially in the case of the Beastmasters, I am really uncertain what GW meant to do.

I agree with Therion that it could easily go either way when GW (hopefully) FAQs it.

Beastmasters and beasts fine but The Harlequins? They're not even Dark Eldar. I don't think that was their intent.

I was actually trying to put across that "intent" was fairly irrelevant.

The rule is abundantly, 100% clear with no ability to argue: the entire unit benefits frmo a token.

No ifs. No buts. Play it that way until or unless a FAQ changes it.

I agree that the entire unit benefits from a token.

I'm not sure that's the intent, though. Especially in the case of the Harlequins. And GW's certainly been known to reverse a clear rule because it didn't fit their intent.

I think the question of how and whether mixed units GENERATE them is much more ambiguous.

I agree too but I actually hope they reverse it in a Q&A due to unfluffiness.

Personally I'd prefer that they allow it.

Partially because I'm playing a Harlequin counts-as Wych based DE army, in which they're "Glory Tokens" instead of Pain Tokens, fluffwise.

Also because harlies just aren't that competitive nowadays anyway, so it's nice for DE to have a trick to make them a little more viable.

but if your playing counts as it doesn't matter anyway.

Are DE harlequins missing someone? Solitaire? I'm rusty on my CW Eldar.

I'd like to dispute a couple of notions that keep getting bandied about regarding Power From Pain.


1) That because the rule says 'Dark Eldar unit with this rule' people are assuming that this means the entire unit has to be made up from models that have the Power From Pain special rule. While this interpretation is completely and totally valid, so is the interpretation that only a single model in the unit has the Power From Pain special rule.

The phrase 'Dark Eldar unit with this rule' can mean either: the entire unit must have the rule or at least one model in the unit has the rule. Both are valid interpretations.

For example, if you say 'any classroom that has the ebola virus must be quarantined', you should probably be more specific ( ) because that can easily be interpreted as meaning if *any* student in the classroom has the ebola virus then the entire class must be quarantined OR it could mean that the entire classroom needs to have the virus for them to be quarantined (although in this case I think most people would lean towards the former).

But the point is, we have two valid interpretations when some people are claiming there is only one.


2) The idea that a unit that has a pain token benefits from it even if they don't have ANY models with the Power From Pain rule in the unit is false, IMHO. The reason I say this is because pain tokens on their own do not have any rules. Their only purpose is to unlock abilities via the 'Power From Pain' special rule. But if no model in a unit has the Power From Pain special rule, then what permission does a unit have to even look at the 'Power From Pain' special rule to see what ability the pain tokens give the unit?

The answer is, they don't! If a unit doesn't contain at least a single model with 'Power From Pain' then it has no permission to use the 'Power From Pain' special rule, and that special rule is what gives pain tokens their meaning.

So I believe that the rules clearly do not allow for a unit that has no models with 'Power From Pain' to benefit from any pain tokens they have.

You have permission by having the pain token.

Same as having a cover save gives you permission to use it

Saldiven wrote:

Therion wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:P25 of the DE codex, when discussing Power From Pain and Sharing the Pain, twice states that the special rule is conferred "to the entire unit" and that "all models in that unit will have..." It also states that when an IC leaves a unit, the pain token can be left behind, and does not put a restriction on leaving it with a unit who themselves have the Power From Pain rule.

It's blatantly obvious that the power from pain rule is just badly worded and the intention was that neither Harlequins or beasts can ever benefit from FNP/FC/etc. Currently the raw interpretation is as you described, and it's a complete coin flip whether GW decides to go with the RAW as it is or just errata a couple extra words into the rule to change everything.

I have to disagree with you. In my opinion, it's blatantly obvious that it's supposed to work exactly as the rule describes. I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that Beasts and Harlequins can benefit from the PfP rule; without that ability, both units really aren't all that great, and with the ability, they are both worth fielding without being overpowering.

Well that's encouraging. Tell you what, I'll let all the rest of the Eldar know that their harlequins need PfP too otherwise they are just 'not that great' and aren't worth fielding. Maybe we should all just go 'counts-as'.

People already know harlequins aren't that great anymore. That's why you barely see them in army lists at all, as opposed to back in 4th edition, when half the Eldar lists at tournaments included multiple Falcons full of clowns.

Thanks, I feel I have gotten my awser both here and on the bolter and chainsword.

Fluff vice I would also not dismiss that Harlequins could not feed on some pain. After all they do reinact the time before the fall once in a while, I am pretty shure they are a bit more loose in there ways then the craftworld cusins. And who really do know what the clows are up to, besides fighting chaos.

Mannahnin wrote:The Beastmasters are indeed a big open question.

I like 17 point fast attack options.
1 Beast Master, venom blade, and no beasts.


-Matt