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Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Apart from their massive lack of airborne forces.

purplefood wrote:

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Apart from their massive lack of airborne forces.

More due to the limits of the 40k rules than the fluff though.

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Apart from their massive lack of airborne forces.

More due to the limits of the 40k rules than the fluff though.

In their fluff they don't use airborne units.
In the game it is possible to have airborne units e.g. Vets in valkyries or deeptriking Stormtroopers

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Apart from their massive lack of airborne forces.

More due to the limits of the 40k rules than the fluff though.

In their fluff they don't use airborne units.
In the game it is possible to have airborne units e.g. Vets in valkyries or deeptriking Stormtroopers

In the game the Armageddon steel legion appeared firstly in codex armageddon and its common environment to fight in were ash wastes.
Maybe chimeras are better suited to this terrain.

1hadhq wrote:

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Apart from their massive lack of airborne forces.

More due to the limits of the 40k rules than the fluff though.

In their fluff they don't use airborne units.
In the game it is possible to have airborne units e.g. Vets in valkyries or deeptriking Stormtroopers

In the game the Armageddon steel legion appeared firstly in codex armageddon and its common environment to fight in were ash wastes.
Maybe chimeras are better suited to this terrain.

Not entirely sure why you underlined Armageddon... I think the reason they are in chimeras is they needed to be able to fight outside of the hives and chimeras were the cheapest way of getting an entire regiment to be able to do that. It doesn't really explain their lack of airborne forces but that may be due to nothing having been written about them as there isn't anything saying they don't like airborne forces.

Its underlined to remind of the environment at Armageddon which may lead to a preference of tracked vehicles over flyers.

Plus Valks were not part of IG lists back in the Day ( GW codices and supplements that is ). IMO GW wanted to add a mech IG to their already existing range
of designs. The airborne at armageddon were the harakoni warhawks right? But they were not native..

I love my vision of the Harakoni Warhawks. I prefer the Steel Legion treads over wings.

1hadhq wrote:Its underlined to remind of the environment at Armageddon which may lead to a preference of tracked vehicles over flyers.

Plus Valks were not part of IG lists back in the Day ( GW codices and supplements that is ). IMO GW wanted to add a mech IG to their already existing range
of designs. The airborne at armageddon were the harakoni warhawks right? But they were not native..

The Airborne at Armageddon was actually the first time we saw the Elysian Drop Troops.

And the Steel Legion are meant to invoke the "Wehrmacht Panzergrenadiers", aka: the men who rode into battle in half-tracks alongside the tanks. They fought alongside the tanks, the half-tracks were part of their organizational make-up, etc.

That is why there's no "airborne" in there.

Where are the half tracks? the 8-wheeled recon tanks?


Maybe the fact of Armageddon Steel legion beeing the first fully mechanized infantry list ( when codex IG had 1 inf platoon = 1 mobile inf squad ) and the description
in codex armageddon missing ANY airborne as Major assets of the Imperium there, but focus on mechanized and armored IG regiments alongside ork hunters,
didn't invoke "panzergrenadiers" in my mind.
Weird, as I tend to have never too much tracked vehicles and always attempted to squeeze more Tanks into any IG list.

Maybe too distracted with Salamanders and Black Templars.

At least, the Death Korps of Krieg was also at Armageddon.

Whoo boy... no one mention warmaster Varan in the Commissar Cain book on the second siege of perlia...


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1hadhq wrote:Where are the half tracks? the 8-wheeled recon tanks?

The Chimeras were meant to be the half-tracks, and the Sentinels filled the role of the Pumas.

I mean come on, if you can't get that especially since we saw the Sentinels being uparmored and given anti-tank weaponry ala the Pumas.

Maybe the fact of Armageddon Steel legion being the first fully mechanized infantry list ( when codex IG had 1 inf platoon = 1 mobile inf squad ) and the description
in codex armageddon missing ANY airborne as Major assets of the Imperium there,

Actually, there were at least three Airborne regiments at Armageddon.
The Elysian Drop Troops, for sure, were there. I think another was a Cadian Drop Troop regiment and the last was the Phantine.

but focus on mechanized and armored IG regiments alongside ork hunters,
didn't invoke "panzergrenadiers" in my mind.

Ork Hunters didn't really play a large part in the overall scheme of it though. They were pretty much restricted to the equatorial jungles.

Not sure why "Mechanized and Armoured IG regiments" doesn't make you think Panzergrenadiers though.
Considering that's exactly what the Panzergrenadiers were

Weird, as I tend to have never too much tracked vehicles and always attempted to squeeze more Tanks into any IG list.
Maybe too distracted with Salamanders and Black Templars.
At least, the Death Korps of Krieg was also at Armageddon.

Then you're not playing Steel Legion right! Jeez!

The Steel Legion is the public perception of a WW2 german army ( which in fact was much less motorised than it is commonly acknowledged )

KingDeath wrote:The Steel Legion is the public perception of a WW2 german army ( which in fact was much less motorised than it is commonly acknowledged )

That's not necessarily true. Public perception of the German army during WW2 was that they fought very similar to our army.

On foot, or driven to the front utilizing 6x6 cargo haulers.

But the Panzergrenadiers were a completely different organization than the standard German Rifle Company.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Chimeras were meant to be the half-tracks, and the Sentinels filled the role of the Pumas.

Quite a stretch in design...

Still real Puma style light recon tanks would be awesome.

Kanluwen wrote:
I mean come on, if you can't get that especially since we saw the Sentinels being uparmored and given anti-tank weaponry ala the Pumas.

They needed it in this environment which is also why airborne isn't important at Armageddon? Enclosed armor was a neccessity there and the "time of fire" got
anyone to retreat into safety.

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, there were at least three Airborne regiments at Armageddon.
The Elysian Drop Troops, for sure, were there. I think another was a Cadian Drop Troop regiment and the last was the Phantine.

So 3 drop troops and hundreds of other assets. Points to a minor role there.

Kanluwen wrote:
Ork Hunters didn't really play a large part in the overall scheme of it though. They were pretty much restricted to the equatorial jungles.

Jungles with relics of Angrons war. Jungles filled with orks. Seems the Catachans did a good job there.

Kanluwen wrote:
Not sure why "Mechanized and Armoured IG regiments" doesn't make you think Panzergrenadiers though.
Considering that's exactly what the Panzergrenadiers were

Mechanized isn't too special in 40k. Just a small step forwards from WW1 line of thinking of GW.

Have to admit I did choose the "mobile warfare" with IG and therefore subscribed to lots of Panzer and Panzergrenadiers even without trying to do so.
Steel Legion just looked that different in style and having Gen Kurov commanding the theatre? Hive militia? Doesn't sound Germanish..

Kanluwen wrote:
Then you're not playing Steel Legion right! Jeez!

Who fields an outdated list of metal models? Steel legion never appealed in design to me, so Tanks is what its at.
And Mech vets pre 5th ed IG dex


edit: quote fail

Have to admit I did choose the "mobile warfare" with IG and therefore subscribed to lots of Panzer and Panzergrenadiers even without trying to do so.
Steel Legion just looked that different in style and having Gen Kurov commanding the theatre? Hive militia? Doesn't sound Germanish..

Well, with Steel Legion the helmet and webbing(even the frock and boots) are a pretty much dead on match for the Fallschirmjager(why they used the Fallschirmjager helmets, webbing, etc for mechanized troops I'll never understand. Likely because it had no real connection that could be made to the SS without really trying hard, but was still recognizably German military during WWII to someone who was "in the know").

As for the "Hive Militia"...think of the "Volksgrenadiers" employed during the battle for Berlin. Heavily armed, lightly equipped volunteers with practically no military training and led by a veteran who couldn't serve in the mainline units.

Kanluwen wrote:

... someone who was "in the know".

As for the "Hive Militia"...think of the "Volkssturm" employed during the battle for Berlin. Old men and kids, lightly equipped "volunteers" with practically no military training and led by a veteran who couldn't serve in the mainline units.

Since i deem myself "in the know", had to correct in italics.

It could be on purpose to copy-paste incorrectly from History, GW tends to borrow designs and names, put them in a mixer and hopes the best.

I was trying to remember what the hell the German term was for those units Some places had it as "Volksgrenadiers", some as "Volkssturm".

They weren't necessarily "kids" though. Most were teenagers who had previously been ineligible for joining up or had been members of the Hitler Youth.

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Kanluwen wrote:

And the Steel Legion are meant to invoke the "Wehrmacht Panzergrenadiers", aka: the men who rode into battle in half-tracks alongside the tanks. They fought alongside the tanks, the half-tracks were part of their organizational make-up, etc.
.

KingDeath wrote:The Steel Legion is the public perception of a WW2 german army ( which in fact was much less motorised than it is commonly acknowledged )

You mean Air Force. The WW 2 German Air Force. Compare their uniforms to that of the Fallschirmjäger, the elite paratrooper divisions of the Luftwaffe, and it's almost a dead ringer (particularly where the helmets are concerned). Ironically enough, this actually means the Steel Legion were meant to be representative of airborne troops rather than German mechanized troops (ala the Panzergrenadiers), which makes sense when you realize that the Fallschirmjäger operated mostly as motorized infantry after 1943, and that a formation existed known as Fallschirm-Panzer Division 1 Hermann Göring, which featured Fallschirmpanzergrenadier units. So nyah.

Anyway, I want to know how gasmasks came to equal Nazi's. While plenty of German troops were issued gasmasks, they rarely wore them (on their faces anyway, you can usually see them strapped to their backs in a tin cylinder), certainly not in any meaningful way that would come to make the two so strongly associated with one another. Personally, I blame Wolfenstein...

Kanluwen wrote:I was trying to remember what the hell the German term was for those units Some places had it as "Volksgrenadiers", some as "Volkssturm".

They weren't necessarily "kids" though. Most were teenagers who had previously been ineligible for joining up or had been members of the Hitler Youth.

And in CoH, they can be given MP40's and turned into little child sized meat grinders.

KingDeath wrote:The Steel Legion is the public perception of a WW2 german army ( which in fact was much less motorised than it is commonly acknowledged )

No its the perception of a part of the German army during WWII, like most militaries they vary from regiment to regiment and to the warzone they are sent, the Panzergrenadiers are different from the Afrikakorps, or the trench soldiers. but they still represent the German army at the time.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Whoo boy... no one mention warmaster Varan in the Commissar Cain book on the second siege of perlia...


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I totally missed that...

chaos0xomega wrote:

Necanor wrote:Actually the only IG army based on WW 2 are the Steel Legion, they are truely based on the WW 2 German army.

Kanluwen wrote:

And the Steel Legion are meant to invoke the "Wehrmacht Panzergrenadiers", aka: the men who rode into battle in half-tracks alongside the tanks. They fought alongside the tanks, the half-tracks were part of their organizational make-up, etc.
.

KingDeath wrote:The Steel Legion is the public perception of a WW2 german army ( which in fact was much less motorised than it is commonly acknowledged )

You mean Air Force. The WW 2 German Air Force. Compare their uniforms to that of the Fallschirmjäger, the elite paratrooper divisions of the Luftwaffe, and it's almost a dead ringer (particularly where the helmets are concerned). Ironically enough, this actually means the Steel Legion were meant to be representative of airborne troops rather than German mechanized troops (ala the Panzergrenadiers), which makes sense when you realize that the Fallschirmjäger operated mostly as motorized infantry after 1943, and that a formation existed known as Fallschirm-Panzer Division 1 Hermann Göring, which featured Fallschirmpanzergrenadier units. So nyah.

You'll also note that I've already brought the point up about the uniforms, helmets, etc.

So nyah.
P.S.
The Fallschirmjager operated mostly not as motorized infantry, but as light infantry after 1943. There's a reason most of the organized resistance to Operation: Market Garden and Overlord was Fallschirmjager units harassing the paratrooper and glider landings.
A large number of the Fallschirmjager units, also, were transferred to the Eastern Front and meshed with the SS or general Wehrmacht units.
So...

Double nyah.

Anyway, I want to know how gasmasks came to equal Nazi's. While plenty of German troops were issued gasmasks, they rarely wore them (on their faces anyway, you can usually see them strapped to their backs in a tin cylinder), certainly not in any meaningful way that would come to make the two so strongly associated with one another. Personally, I blame Wolfenstein...

Gas masks doesn't equal Nazis.
The distinctive Y shaped webbing, jackboots, and Stahlhelmet look of the artwork, does however, evoke images of the WWII-era Wehrmacht.

Brother Xorus wrote:In post WWI the standard military uniform was the same as during the war,(The DKoK uniform) and stayed that way into the introduction of the nazi regeime. Which at first Germany rebeled against (The DKoK's rebelion against the Empire). Then once The Nazi regeime (The Empire) took power they payed "Pennance" to the Regeime, and most men were forced into some form of military or civil service. Like the DKoK is now. That is all i meant, not a literal translation of post great depression Germanys rise to power of the system of fascism.

@ Xorus: Your explanation is far too simple and plainly wrong.
Why do so many gamers think, the DKOK are LOLGERMANS IN SPACE???
If anything, Brother Xorus, you should brush up your history.

1. The DKOK UNIFORM IS NOT THE UNIFORM OF THE GERMANS IN WWI:
The uniforms of the DKOK resemble if anything, most the BELGIANS AFTER they got rid of their napoleonic-era uniforms and were partially re-supplied by the FRENCH!!!
The HELMET is, as has been mentioned many, many times before on many forums, an amalgam (means a mix) of the German 'coal-scuttle' and the French 'Adrian' helmet!!!
The Germans DIDN'T WEAR AS-STANDARD A GREATCOAT!!! BOTH the French and Belgians did!
The Germans didn't wear puttees, pretty much EVERYONE ELSE did! (British, French, Belgians...)
Look at the Centaur Carrier: It is a 40K version of the Bren Gun Carrier.
The whole fluff is not at all related to Germany or the German Army, but to the - in the time of 1914 to 1918 - totally new way of fighting in WWI. Related to the european trench war.
Although the name of the death korps of krieg is taken from the german word for war - Krieg.

2. Germany didn't "rebel" against the Nazis Regime in the first place. BECAUSE THERE WAS NO NAZI REGIME AT FIRST!
Adolf Hitler was introduced by the "Camarilla of Hindenburg" to candidate as Chancellor in the "Weimarer Republic". In 1933, Hitler was VOTED Chancellor.
After this, the Nazis got more and more power after years of constant manipulation of the media, of violence, of intrigues etc.
In 1933 and before, the "Germans" were a heterogeneous mass. There was no "They" as a singular - neither of revolting against Hitler nor of supporting him. After the Burning of the Reichstag, the Nazis got more and more power and put more and more of their german opponents in jail.
In 1939 there were nearly no resistants left that weren't in jail or dead or so afraid that they turend mute and passive.
There was no "rebellion". There was no war.
But still, my sum-up is far too easy and not precise enough. If you are interested in WWII history, read Ian Kershaws books.

greets anyway, mr. horse

Mr. Horse wrote:
If anything, Brother Xorus, you should brush up your history.

1. The DKOK UNIFORM IS NOT THE UNIFORM OF THE GERMANS IN WWI:
The uniforms of the DKOK resemble if anything, most the BELGIANS AFTER they got rid of their napoleonic-era uniforms and were partially re-supplied by the FRENCH!!!
The HELMET is, as has been mentioned many, many times before on many forums, an amalgam (means a mix) of the German 'coal-scuttle' and the French 'Adrian' helmet!!!
The Germans DIDN'T WEAR AS-STANDARD A GREATCOAT!!! BOTH the French and Belgians did!
The Germans didn't wear puttees, pretty much EVERYONE ELSE did! (British, French, Belgians...)
Look at the Centaur Carrier: It is a 40K version of the Bren Gun Carrier.
The whole fluff is not at all related to Germany or the German Army, but to the - in the time of 1914 to 1918 - totally new way of fighting in WWI. Related to the european trench war.
Although the name of the death korps of krieg is taken from the german word for war - Krieg.

This is true. The DKoK don't really look german at all, with the except the aforementioned stalhelm-adrian combo, and the ubiquitous gasmask, which isn't german styled at all. Also, worth pointing out that the DKoK spell it Kreig, not Krieg...just thought I would throw it out there.

The Fallschirmjager operated mostly not as motorized infantry, but as light infantry after 1943. There's a reason most of the organized resistance to Operation: Market Garden and Overlord was Fallschirmjager units harassing the paratrooper and glider landings.
A large number of the Fallschirmjager units, also, were transferred to the Eastern Front and meshed with the SS or general Wehrmacht units.
So...

Double nyah.

Not to bring the discussion further off topic, but light infantry and motorized infantry aren't exclusive terms. FJ units were motorized in the sense that they used motor vehicles to travel cross country, when they approached the AOR they would dismount and continue on as light infantry. As evidence, FJ units had 3x more vehicles in their TOEs than Heer infantry units, and the FJ units also tended to be slightly smaller from what IIRC. An FJ regiment could be expected to have several hundred trucks at its disposal.

If you show a picture of DKOK soldiers to someone who doesn't play warhammer, they will tell you they look german soldiers from WW2, this is from multiple experiences.

Unfortunately that is true(actually it has nothing to do w/ warhammer, its whether or not they are familiar with history, as most warhammer players think they are germans), but that goes back to the 'gasmask stereotype' I think.

Mr Nobody wrote:If you show a picture of DKOK soldiers to someone who doesn't play warhammer, they will tell you they look german soldiers from WW2, this is from multiple experiences.

This just shows the fact that alot of people are poorly taught history, just because lots of people believe something is true doesn't make it true. I think alot of these issues would be eased if hollywood stopped making 'historical' war films full of heavily altered facts and changing the nationality of the people who actually did the deed.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:If you show a picture of DKOK soldiers to someone who doesn't play warhammer, they will tell you they look german soldiers from WW2, this is from multiple experiences.

This just shows the fact that alot of people are poorly taught history, just because lots of people believe something is true doesn't make it true. I think alot of these issues would be eased if hollywood stopped making 'historical' war films full of heavily altered facts and changing the nationality of the people who actually did the deed.

Totally agree with this point.

chaos0xomega wrote:Also, worth pointing out that the DKoK spell it Kreig, not Krieg...just thought I would throw it out there.

So FW and GW misspell it? You know this webstore where people buy these resin kits of DKoK and the company from this foggy island which claims to write 40k
background and rules. Won't you take back what you throw out?