Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Horde would be problematic, for sure. Simply not enough high damage output units besides the termies. No tie-up units, either.

Daemons? Hmm, Fatecrusher would be challenging only in that Fateweaver himself could take out tanks. The army could focus on the Fiends, then back away and shoot the crap out of everything else, focus firing on BT and and winged DPs. I think that match-up would be tough as again, they could use a tie-up unit like a dread. If the Daemon player didn't get their preferred wave, they'd be screwed. Non-Fatweaver lists wouldn't be so bad, I don't think.

Nids? I don't think nids would be problematic. Ymgarls and Outlfanking Stealers would be the worst of it, IMO. The rest of it would get mown down.

Foot guard would be problematic. Not enough anti-infantry. You need a lawnmower unit for those types of armies.

Your typical mech list though, would be in deep gak. Missile wolves would struggle, as you noted. I think against all but outlier armies, as you mentioned, you would have the upper hand.

I am not familiar with the Vehicle Spam Ork list, but I am curious. How does it go?

Perhaps running a unit of assault termies would be a good bet. F.Charge, preffered enemy assault termies can just smash most units.

@CKO
Yeah, I am pumped to try out some new lists! The A.Cannon unit has been awesome since 4th ed, but I personally forgot about them for a while and this FAQ reminded me of how great they were, particularly now in light mech world.

The assault termies are the business. They can really bring the pain, and I think you may be right, a good list may need some of them to really be able to meet all threats effectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Templars 2000pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Accept Any Challenge 1 140

Troops
Crusader Squad 5 80
Crusader Squad Rhino 5 130


Elites
Terminators F.Assault, L.Claws x 2, TH/SS x 3 5 215
Land Raider Crusader Smoke 1 268
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265
Terminators 2 x A.Cannon, Tank Hunters 5 255

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Totals 33 1998

This may work better against a wider array of enemies.

MVB's list that I happily stole after playing against it at the Nova (a friend of his was running it):

Mek w/Field
2x3 Nobz w/2 Combi-Skorchaz + BW's w/Deffrolla
5x10-12 Orks w/PK Nob in Trukk w/Ram
Dread
3x3 Rokkit Buggies
3x3 Kanz w/GZ's or RL's

It's just plain gross really.

I agree though. I think it would shine against 90% of the current meta. I think the problem you might run into is a lot of the players that seem to sit at the top of the heap are shifting away from the current meta based on their playstyles. But I can see a curb stomping of the majority of the field early.

Oh, and I like the second list more.

That is an interesting Ork list and not one I have considered before.

Mixing Kanz and Dreadz with fast movers? Interesting, I would like to see it played.

I do love the 3 meganob squad in BW though, that is such a great unit. No boarding planks though? Those things can be amazingly good once you get in close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, I think BTs will crump most generalized lists.

Reecious I am Kenpachi and you have a better taste for blood than I do, only 2 troops! Are you able to pull off victorys with such small number of troops not in transports.

Hulk that list would be really hard to beat if you are pure shooty.

Yeah, it's something that very well could be at the top tables at Nova so it's something to consider. It's also why I like his newer list better

@CKO
You can pull off wins with two troops, for sure, especially when you have so many other big threats to draw fire. You just need to do your best to protect the troops you have be putting them in reserves or hiding them. Going to ground is your friend! Not very marine like, but it is a winning tactic. Most of my MEQ tournament lists have a low number of minimum sized troops units. You certainly don't have to do it, especially if you have powerful troops, but it is a way to maximize kill power in other slots while having enough scoring units to get the job done.

@Hulk
Yeah, that is the ting about playing at higher levels, you get the spoiler armies that you know will make it to the top tables! Haha, then you have to plan for them while not losing your ability to win in the first rounds. I am facing that issue now with my Bjorn Wolves. That list wins against 99% of the lists I face but certain armies, like Wolfstar Wolves give me issues and I know I will be seeing them in GTs around here. So what to do? Might have to change up the roster a tad to accommodate.

I think Hulks list will start off with the advantage because of numbers, but when the game starts if your not making cover saves those vehicle in squadrons go down pretty fast not to mention they are open top. But because you have 50 orks in trucks and 6 nobz in wagons Reecious will have to be the better player to pull off the victory.

Yeah, I think the BTs will out-shot the Ork list above fairly handily, it just depends on how lucky the Ork player gets with the KFF and who went first.

This list gets pwnd by Lash, but against everyone else it would be really, really brutal.

Black Templars 2000pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Accept Any Challenge 1 140
Reclusiarch Cynobytes x 6 8 155
Reclusiarch Cynobytes x 6 8 155

Troops
Crusader Squad Rhino 5 130
Crusader Squad Rhino 5 130


Elites
Terminators F.Assault, L.Claws x 4, TH/SS x 6 10 430
Terminators F.Assault, L.Claws x 4, TH/SS x 6 10 430

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Totals 51 2000

That gives you good shooting, and two incredibly powerful assault units. The Cynobytes give you both ablative wounds and extra movement, so that anyone who shoots at those termies has to chem through a lot just to get at the meat of the army.

By turn 3 in most cases it is assaulting and then it's a wrap against almost anyone who can't outfight them in HtH, which isn't much.

Lash would be a bitch, but the Typhoons and Preds could drop the princes with a little luck before they did too much.

Fatecrusher would be tough as this army would probably get beaten down in combat.

Other than that though, this could be really powerful.

Drop the FC for TH on the termies and your golden. You still count as TH in CC which means that you can multi-charge a parking lot and tear thru it and have a chance to pen AV14. Honestly you won't really need the FC.

I think this list could work. I get way to scared about scoring units honestly so I don't think I could ever run it but it could work pretty well. And should even be able to take those outlier lists.

I disagree you need the FC, so your claws will be striking at initiative 5, that way you will kill the majority of a marine squad before they strike back, the list already has enough anti-tank.

Wait another list he is making to many exiting the thread now!

Yeah, you may be right, dropping FC nabs las/plas for the crusaders and more TH/SS increased the units durability. However, I5, Str5, reroll everything LC attacks is really nasty. You can go into combat and murder a lot of models before they have a chance to wing on the hammers, then remove the claws as casualties after they've swung. Plus, the Str9 on the hammers means nothing's safe, Av14 and Ironclads won't be such a problem.

This list could be brutal, the only serious monkey wrench is Lash. Sorcerer lash would be much harder to counter, maybe impossible without a lot of luck. Lash Princes though, could be gunned down.

Outside of that, I don't see much that would really be a rpoblem. Maybe very fast armies like Eldar and DE that can move away and shoot, but again, that depends a lot on who alhpa strikes.

Definitely worth trying out, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@CKO
Haha, I know, right! So many possibilities in the BT book, now. I really want to test some of this out.

Reecie,
I don't think Black Templars will work to be honest. I have played them for too long and they have to spend too many points on troops unlike DA. You need to have at least 4 troop units in your list and your are left with very little afterwords. Maybe at a higher point game like 2500 but 1850 or lower I just can't see it.

1850, yeah, they struggle. I play mostly 2K myself, and most tournaments I go to are in that range.

I played BT for a while in the beggining of 5th, and they struggled. I think now though, they can bring enough firepower to even the odds. You are right though that they drop too many points on troops that are subpar. I don't think you need 4 troops personally, but 2, 5 man units is certainly pushing it.

We'll see. I am gong to test out a few lists and see if they are as good as I think they can be. I may be wrong, but hey, it's fun to try.

I was thinking something very similar, except as follows.


Emperor's Champion Abhor the witch 1 125

Troops
Crusader Squad 5 80
Crusader Squad las cannon Rhino 5 145
Crusader Squad las cannon Rhino 5 145


Elites
Terminators F.Assault, L.Claws x 2, TH/SS x 3 5 215
Land Raider Crusader Smoke 1 268
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265
Terminators 2 x A.Cannon, Tank Hunters 5 255

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

I like the 5+ your psychic powers dont work on me, and I dont think the list needs quite that many tanks. And another unit of troops is less cheezy overall in most games, and able to grab more stuff if absolutely needed. Other than that its pretty much my ideal list. Or heck Might fit in a LD 10 leader and take another tank away, give em th/ss for better shooting overall at -1 ld. Put him in with the assaulty termies and call it good. Any which way that core of terminators is a good build I feel for the army.

I like it! Maybe because it is really similar to mine! Haha.

I play mostly in tournaments so "cheese" isn't even a topic discussed. It's what works vs. what doesn't, or a casual list vs. a competitive list. Cheese has to many negative connotations for my mind, but that is a totally different topic.

Yeah, for 145 points, the 5 man las/rhino squad isn't terrible compared to a 5 man grey hunter squad in a Lazroback for 150. Sure, the BT can't move and shoot and there is a decent chance it will not shoot what you want, but hey, it's the best troops option. That or just a flamer in the Rhino.

Your list is mostly meched up so I don't think you need the 5+ against psychic powers. Preferred enemy is just so good! It's the counterattack of the BTs. I would have trouble letting it go, personally.

BTW does anyone know if the termies in the assault on black reach box come with the assault cannon and cyclone, or are the sprues left out. I need marines, termies, more boyz, a warboss on foot, nobz, and some deffkoptas if so that would be a good buy for me. If not I could see if I could order the cannons and cyclones, but havent seen the cyclone packs for sale yet.

Nope, they sure don't. And those bits are about to become really scarce! Haha, better jump on them while you can.

Battlewagon bits at www.thewarstore.com sells the cannons and cyclones, better grab em while they're hot, because they'll be gone fast.

Ha 15 bucks for one cyclone termie pack. Forget it ill make my own. Absolute ripoff site.

Actually, thewarstore.com is a great site, they do charge a premium for bitz, but they have excellent service, no sales tax and cheap shipping.

Can the emperors champion ride in the land raider with the assault terminators, his rules say he cant be attached to a unit. Does that also mean even if there is room left inside he cant ride with them?

Emperor's Champion accept any challenge 1 140
Marshal terminator armor, lightning claw, storm shield 140

Troops
Crusader Squad M. launcher Rhino 5 140
Crusader Squad M. launcher Rhino 5 140


Elites
Terminators F.Assault,TH/SS x 5 5 215
Land Raider Crusader 1 265
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265
Terminators 2 x Cyclone, Tank Hunters 5 265

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 70
Typhoon 1 70

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Total 2000 even

Thinking losing the unit not in a rhino and a typhoon would allow my termies and troops to fire at ld 9 after modifiers, as well as beef up the squad in the land raider.

But I was also thinking of dropping one more annihilator for an equal point cost 5 man squad in a rhion with a las cannon. Would only one annihilator be worth it, or just die from anti tank right away. Feel really uncomfortable without at least 3 troops choices.

Edited forgot to remove smoke launchers. If I lost another tank I would have a 5 man squad with missile launcher, rhino, and re add smoke to the land raider.

On Typhoons. Can't black templar take more than one per squad? Cheaper than their SM counter parts, you're looking to crank up the killing, right?

You could trade in one squad of terms, 210 pts gives you 3 more typhoons (2x3 squads). Use the extra points for more troops or whatever. Typhoons make a mess of orks and nids... heck, they make a mess out of everyone. Love them.

I like the list though, fierce. It’s got enough CC to push units off objectives.

Chubs wrote:On Typhoons. Can't black templar take more than one per squad? Cheaper than their SM counter parts, you're looking to crank up the killing, right?

You could trade in one squad of terms, 210 pts gives you 3 more typhoons (2x3 squads). Use the extra points for more troops or whatever. Typhoons make a mess of orks and nids... heck, they make a mess out of everyone. Love them.

I like the list though, fierce. It’s got enough CC to push units off objectives.

I dont think I want to give up a squad of termies, even for more speeders. If anything I would do without the tanks. I really would like to remove them, just so mech IG or big gun armies have nothing better to shoot after the land raider, but I cant think of what to replace em with.

I was originally thinking something along the lines of removing the 2 tanks, adding 4 termie guards with assault cannons to my lord, then deep striking behind enemy lines. They would probably be obliterated is my only concern. But 4 units of terminators would just be fun. Not as competative, but fun.

Can the emperors champion ride in the land raider with the assault terminators, his rules say he cant be attached to a unit. Does that also mean even if there is room left inside he cant ride with them?

He can join basic units...he just can't join command squads.

@Orock
The Emp Champ can only not attach to a command squad, but he is a normal IC otherwise. So you can stick him in the LRC with the assault termies and marshall.

Nice List though.

Reecius,you should look into terminator command squads if you want some durable, wound allocation goodness. 2 of 3 models can take 3++ and the marshal can take a mantle and be a giant pain in the ass. It's crazy that you can essentially make a better Lysander character for cheaper points.

Here was a list I posted on Friday:

Emperor's champion with Accept.

Marshall w/ LC, Stormshield, Orbs, Teleport homer
Terminator command squad
1 CML and chainfist
1 CML
1 stormbolter and chainfist
1 sgt with combi-melta, stormshield
Tankhunters

5 man terminator squad with:
2 stormbolters
1 CML and chainfist
1 CML
1 stormbolter and chainfist
Tankhunters

5 man terminator squad with:
2 stormbolters
1 CML and chainfist
1 CML
1 stormbolter and chainfist
Tankhunters

5 man terminator squad with:
2 stormbolters
1 CML and chainfist
1 CML
1 stormbolter and chainfist
Tankhunters

5 man crusader squad with:
1 meltagun and powerfist
Mounted in Twin linked LC razorback with smoke

5 man crusader squad with:
1 meltagun and powerfist
Mounted in Twin linked LC razorback with smoke

5 man crusader squad with:
1 meltagun and powerfist
Mounted in Twin linked LC razorback with smoke

Army total: 1991pts.

16 tankhunting krak missiles for tanks, 16 small blasts for hordes, 3 twinlinked lascannons, 4 meltaguns, and everybody has preferred enemy and Ld 10. It's as close to a 1st company army as you can get with that codex and still have scoring units that are worth while. I think that if you drop the razorbacks down to heavy bolter ones..or just switch to basic rhinos you might be able field another squad of terminators. While you could do this before the FAQ, it wasn't quite as powerful in the shooting phase...and not as durable. The command squad being able to have 3+ invuln saves is huge. I could even jockey the points around and take a mantle on the guy and now he's literally as tough as Lysander.

I'm also considering trying to fit an Inquisitor or GKGM into my list so that they can stop psykers. Mystics wouldn't be bad either to defend your firebase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@CaptKaruthers

Nice list!

Man, you can really play the wound allocation game.

Low model count though, holy crap. I would drop the special gear on the crusader squads in order to pick up a Typhoon or Pred, but that looks pretty nasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think hordes would be your only problem, but other than that, you will wax mech lists with disgusting ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about going an completely different direction, how about a fully Mechanized force?

Black Templars 2000pts
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Uphold the Emperor 1 100

Troops
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170
Crusader Squad Lazorback 6 170

Elites
Ven Dread L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 155
Ven Dread L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 155
Ven Dread L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 155

Fast Attack
Typhoon 3 210
Typhoon 2 140
Typhoon 2 140

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145
Predator Annihilator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 145

Totals 32 2000

That is ungodly anti-tank.

9 twin las, 6 regular las. 14 missiles and 3 heavy bolters for anti tank and infantry, 3 H.Flamers, 3 mobile scoring units, 3 tough dreads to jump into combat, don't worry about psychic tests or "kill them all".

This army outshoots most anything. That is a serious, serious amount of firepower.

You can only take 1 Venerable Dreadnought.

At least that frees up some points

Reecius,you should look into terminator command squads if you want some durable, wound allocation goodness. 2 of 3 models can take 3++ and the marshal can take a mantle and be a giant pain in the ass. It's crazy that you can essentially make a better Lysander character for cheaper points.

So the command squad would have 2 invun save models, the seargent and marshal. Dosent seem that huge of a boon, you could have the marshall run around with 5 assault termies and all have invun saves. And switch some points around and you could stick em in a land raider if you dumped the command squad to get em there. Do you feel that the 4 extra cyclone shots and assorted bolter rounds are more impacting then say a crusader loaded with a marshal in termie with lc/ss, 5 th/ss termies and the emperors champion?

@TakamineG
Yeah I saw that, thanks for pointing it out though. That would have been crazy good!

@Orock
I think the Command squads are nice too, because they can get the same weapons and upgrades for the cost of only 4 termies.

Orock wrote:Reecius,you should look into terminator command squads if you want some durable, wound allocation goodness. 2 of 3 models can take 3++ and the marshal can take a mantle and be a giant pain in the ass. It's crazy that you can essentially make a better Lysander character for cheaper points.

When last I read my Codex, you weren't allowed to take assault terminator weapons on the command squads. I might be wrong though.

Oh, and a better Lysander? Really? 185 points versus 200 points, but you lose 1 wound, the S10 AP1 thunder hammer and bolter drill. How is that better?