Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, just like EVERY Imperial organization, different chunks of the Mechanicus hold different ideas, and of course, fight each other over said ideas. Some Tech Priests may think any research at all is heresy, while others may think that it is possible to use alien technology to better humanity. It's Warhammer 40k, and the Imperium of Man!! Everyone is arguing with everyone else about what the Emperor truly wants, and they only agree on a few things: 1) Chaos is the enemy, 2) Humans are the best, 3) All hail the EMperor. Beyond that, anything goes, and everyone will decide that everyone else's ideas are heresy.

poontangler wrote:Well shot guns, and slug throwing rifles have the same strength of the las-gun. Meaning the las-gun is about as powerful as a standard issue assault rifle. It is a mass produced soldiers weapon.

And a veteran, extremely fit and powerful chainsword wielding Sister in power armor has the same strength as an unarmed malnourished conscript who hasn't even received basic training after being yanked off the street. It being S3 means approximately nothing, because the in-game representations are EXTREMELY abstract.

I guarantee you a Sister in power armor could overwhelm any non-augmented human in any test in raw strength and endurance. This is not represented in stats, because the stats are abstract.

To be fair, most of the strength augmentation in SoB power armor goes to carrying around the massive amounts of gold it takes to get a 3+ armor save, since it wouldn't be Ecclesiarchy Certified if it wasn't made of solid gold.


Stats aren't so much abstract as they are extremely broad categories. S3 is essentially a statistical average of what a normal human or eldar can do with a normal melee weapon, considered roughly comparable to a close range shotgun blast or lasgun shot in terms of damage ability.

Oh ho but the battle sister has a BS and a WS of four, where as the conscript's respective stats are only twos. This gives you and idea of where the stats stand in game terms. Yes they are abstract, but that conscript is clearly not equal to battle sister and would easily be defeated.

Also the Sisters of Battle are not augmented, they are just very well trained and equipped. Actually in game terms most alien races would fight them much more frequently then the space marines, as the SoB are much more numerious, and actively patrol imperial territory.

Does Warp have any effect on the technology? Like instantly shut it down, blowing up some parts or taking control of it. I have a felling that each time technology came in touch with the warp field (warp realm, like warp storm nearby) technology became less effective than usual. The other thing that make me believe in this is the Tau, who is on the other edge of the galaxy, opposing the Eye of Terror on other. And is it possible that because they are so distant from the EoT and warp entities that they have the most advance technology in galaxy?

Well, no not really. If the Warp shut down technology, the Imperium would be helpless to fight daemons, and psyker powers would be just complete hell to work with.

And note, a warp storm generally isn't a physical thing in physical space. It's a phenomenon in the realm of the Warp that cuts the planet off because all FTL travel and communication goes through the Warp.

Think of it this way, it's the Colonial era, and the ENglish have colonies in America. A warp storm would be like if a freak strom developed in the middl of the Atlantic that destroyed any ship trying to cross it. To the people on both sides, looking out things would be fine, but the colonies would be 'cut off' in the sense that no message or vessel could get through the storm.

Melissia wrote:And a veteran, extremely fit and powerful chainsword wielding Sister in power armor has the same strength as an unarmed malnourished conscript who hasn't even received basic training after being yanked off the street. It being S3 means approximately nothing, because the in-game representations are EXTREMELY abstract.

I guarantee you a Sister in power armor could overwhelm any non-augmented human in any test in raw strength and endurance. This is not represented in stats, because the stats are abstract.

If you were to compare the strength characteristics of Sororitas and Scum in Dark Heresy then the Sororitas are significantly less strong. If you were to compare the characteristics given in Inquisitor for a fit human would have a strength of 50 and a Sororitas 55. They are highly trained humans but humans none-the-less and the strength characteristics in any game reflect that. AS far as strength increases from powered armour, it is significant enough for a game like 40K but in those where it is represented than any human wearing powered armour would almost certainly overwhelm a no-augmented human in a test of strength, that's obvious.

poontangler wrote:Actually in game terms most alien races would fight them much more frequently then the space marines, as the SoB are much more numerious, and actively patrol imperial territory.

That is not correct. Each Order has only between three and four thousand members. There are probably fewer than forty thousand Sororitas scattered throughout the Imperium at the current time and even in peak periods no more than one hundred thousand.

Brother Coa wrote:Does Warp have any effect on the technology? Like instantly shut it down, blowing up some parts or taking control of it.

If exposed to the raw stuff of the warp then anything not shielded by a Gellar Field would be instantly destroyed save for the vaguaries of the warp but basically it would be obliterated.

I have a felling that each time technology came in touch with the warp field (warp realm, like warp storm nearby) technology became less effective than usual.

That isn't true, proximity to a warp storm would not instantly effect a weapon or vehicle, if that were the case then the Traitor Legions would have no usable technology at all. In fact the Dark Mechanicus rely on proximity to the warp to create weapons and vehicles that they could not create in the material realm.

The other thing that make me believe in this is the Tau, who is on the other edge of the galaxy, opposing the Eye of Terror on other. And is it possible that because they are so distant from the EoT and warp entities that they have the most advance technology in galaxy?

There are plenty of warp/real space overlaps near Tau space and they don't have naywhere near the most advanced technology in the galaxy. Arguably that would by the Necrons and the Tau come no-where near them in terms of sophistication.

poontangler wrote:Also the Sisters of Battle are not augmented

Yes they are. Sisters of Battle wear strength-augmenting power armor.

Gogsnik wrote:If you were to compare the strength characteristics of Sororitas and Scum in Dark Heresy then the Sororitas are significantly less strong.

That's because Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game, and all of the classes must be balanced. Sororitas are already held to be more powerful than other classes for various other reasons, giving Sororitas another statistical advantage would not help the issue.

A person who has had a properly nutritious diet, trained in hand to hand combat, and dedicated theirselves to military service with the dedication that comes with only the religiously fanatic-- and done so all their entire lives, practically from birth (if not literally so)... is going to be far more physically fit and probably stronger than the average random dude off the street.

That is not correct. Each Order has only between three and four thousand members. There are probably fewer than forty thousand Sororitas scattered throughout the Imperium at the current time and even in peak periods no more than one hundred thousand.

That is the bare minimum estimate, yes, but not hte only estimate possible. I would estimate there are millions of Sisters at the very least, with numbers varying with the ebb and flow of the Ecclesiarchy's power. The numbers in the codices are incredibly vague (intentionally so I imagine), and the numbers in the rulebook are contradicted by every single other source out there.

Melissia wrote:That's because Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game, and all of the classes must be balanced. Sororitas are already held to be more powerful than other classes for various other reasons, giving Sororitas another statistical advantage would not help the issue.

Perhaps Dark Heresy is but Inquisitor isn't and what we see across three games is a similar presentation of the Sororitas. These are not enhanced humans, they are ordinary humans and your average Sororitas is no stronger than any other physically fit human and even the strongest Sororitas can be no stronger than a human can be. When they don their powered armour then of course they benefit from the strength enhancement of that armour but so would any human.

A person who has had a properly nutritious diet, trained in hand to hand combat, and dedicated theirselves to military service with the dedication that comes with only the religiously fanatic-- and done so all their entire lives, practically from birth (if not literally so)... is going to be far more physically fit and probably stronger than the average random dude off the street.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

That is the bare minimum estimate, yes, but not hte only estimate possible. I would estimate there are millions of Sisters at the very least, with numbers varying with the ebb and flow of the Ecclesiarchy's power.

You may well prefer the idea of millions of Sisters but the background disagrees with you so unless you can provide a source to substantiate that preference it is meaningless.

The numbers in the codices are incredibly vague (intentionally so I imagine), and the numbers in the rulebook are contradicted by every single other source out there.

Hardly, quite the contrary in fact, the numbers are quite specific. At the current time (in-universe) there are between three and four thousand Battle Sisters per Order and on occasion they can be as few as several hundred and as many as six or seven thousand. Across the various publications and various editions there have only ever been several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters with the emphasis on less rather than more.

Gogsnik wrote:Perhaps Dark Heresy is but Inquisitor isn't

... yes it is.

Gogsnik wrote:These are not enhanced humans

I never said they were.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

The last statement is true, but the rest of it not so much so. Again, the reason that I said Sisters are going to be stronger and more physically fit is that they have been properly fed with the best, most nutritious (not saying the most tasty) food in the Imperium from near-birth (via the Schola Progenium), and trained by the same institutions as well as their own.

It's basic nutrition. A person who has a proper, perfectly balanced and perfectly designed diet and exercise regimen for a soldier, all other things equal, is going to come out physically superior to one that when they aren't going hungry due to food shortages, crime, warfare, or simply being part of the lowest rungs of society, is eating soylens viridians, a tasteless (or bad tasting) food designed to give humans the bare minimum of what they need to survive (and be easily mass produced). As I said before, the average conscript ripped off the street, given a lasgun and pointed at the enemy is NOT going to be as physically fit or strong as a Sister of Battle. There's really no way to argue they would be.

It has nothing to do with Sisters being augmented, no, that was merely referring to power armor.

You may well prefer the idea of millions of Sisters but the background disagrees with you so unless you can provide a source to substantiate that preference it is meaningless.

Please, you're the one pulling numbers out of your pants, and you're asking ME to back my statements up?

C:WH is enough of a source. To give a direct quote, the numbers of Sororitas have waxed and waned from "a couple thousand to many thousands". This is an incredibly vague statement, because "many thousands" is anywhere from 3 to 999 thousand. It certainly does not mean specifically three or four-- "many" is a large and indefinite number.

I am sure the armor augments the sister's strength to be superior to that of an imperial guardsmen. But in game times it is not enough to give them a defined edge. This boast to strength is factored in to the weapon skill(Much like the speed of the Eldar, and their long lives) But they are clearly not as physically powerful as a Space Marine.

As far as how many, the numbers are indeed vague. But according to the codex they patrol pilgrim routes, and actively aid the imperial guard in defending the Imperium. It is apparent they they greatly out number the space marines, as it is much easier to produce one. They are obviously a much smaller force then the innumerable imperial guard. At the very least they would number in the millions; if a battle erupted your xenos would more likely end up squaring off against the battle sisters, then the space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I am reading the organisation of the sisters.

Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.
Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.
Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.
Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

This alone hints that they are in fact more numerous then the space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex also clearly states that not all of the sisters are combat oriented.

Orders Hospitaller: The Sisters of the Orders Hospitaller aid the poor and heal the sick and the wounded in the many hospitals and clinics across the Imperium operated as charities by the Sisterhood. Some of their hospitals are part of Imperial Crusades and the Sisters serve as medics for the Imperial Guard Regiments serving in those conflicts.
Orders Dialogous: The Sisters of the Order Dialogous help to translate the innumerable dialects and slangs of Low Gothic used throughout the Imperium. At the behest of the Inquisition and certain other parties in the Imperial hierarchy they also study Xenos languages1, and translate texts obtained from Xeno artifacts. Sisters Dialogous are often employed as Sages in Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors' retinues.
Orders Famulous: The Sisters of the Orders Famulous organize and maintain the households of certain Imperial governors and Imperial nobles, serving as advisers and by their very presence reminding them of their higher loyalties to the Emperor. They oppose any disloyalty with the support of faithful followers from the inside of the noble household itself4.The Orders Famulous also maintain and update extenseive genetic and genealogical records for all the important noble families of the Imperium and can conduct genetic testing at the request of the Inquisition when rampant mutation or heresy on the part of Imperial nobles is suspected.

Melissia wrote:... yes it is.

No, it really isn't. As Gav Thorpe said, 'For years, successive designers and developers have honed each edition of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 to a razor edge, striving towards that Holy Grail of games design - game balance. With Inquisitor we decided not to bother with any of that at all...'

I never said they were.

I never said that you did.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

The last statement is true, but the rest of it not so much so. Again, the reason that I said Sisters are going to be stronger and more physically fit is that they have been properly fed with the best, most nutritious (not saying the most tasty) food in the Imperium from near-birth (via the Schola Progenium), and trained by the same institutions as well as their own.

It's basic nutrition.

I'm not interested in whether or not a Sororitas, or any person trained rigoursly from a young age is more or less strong than someone who doesn't start to train until well into their adulthood but only that the Sororitas are normal humans with the same potential as any normal human and their physical strength as portrayed in which ever game system you care to mention reflects that fact.

Please, you're the one pulling numbers out of your pants, and you're asking ME to back my statements up?

I don't know why you say that because the numbers are taken directly from the background; Codex: Sisters of Battle to be precise but the 5th Edition Rulebook summises those sme figures.

And yes, I am asking you to provide a source. Provide a source which agrees with your preference, that backs up your statements. It'd be nice, you know, just this one time if you actually did provide a source instead of ignoring the background and then asking other people for their sources instead. Hah, who am I kidding?

C:WH is enough of a source. To give a direct quote, the numbers of Sororitas have waxed and waned from "a couple thousand to many thousands". This is an incredibly vague statement, because "many thousands" is anywhere from 3 to 999 thousand. It certainly does not mean specifically three or four-- "many" is a large and indefinite number.

You know we've had this same identical conversation before. I presented the numbers given for the Orders in the background source material then as now but then, as now, you ignored it in favour of your own preferences.

To cut the discussion off at this point as it has nothing to with Technology I'll type up your argument for you

You'll say: There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefore there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy.

I'll say: the Major Orders only ever manage to raise several thousand warriors, specific figures presented to you, but the Minor Orders are limitless? Bah! And to quote Codex Witch Hunters, 'The original six orders are by far the most numerous.'

Your argument on what constitutes 'many' is incredibly tenuous but I don't expect you to diverge from your preference regardless of any of the background presented to you so there is very little point in saying more than that. The background gives us specific numbers and those numbers paint a picture of fewer rather than greater numbers of Battle Sisters and even if you were correct, that there are indeed hundreds of thousands, even millions of Battle Sisters there is no reason for the background not to say just that. But it doesn't, it says the opposite.

Gogsnik wrote:You know we've had this same identical conversation before.

That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

Ah the Melissia posts, how we've missed them

OT
The IOM still has some pretty advance tech, its just most of the time one no knows how it works. They can reporduce it, make lesser copys of it, they know it works just not how it works.

If memory serves me right there are some Ad Mech that do reverse engeener tech they find. Its rare but they do it, what comes to mind is a bit in the back of the 3rd edition rule book about an "open core neo-plasma reactor" that they got their hands (or servos) on.

How many of us on here can build a car from scratch, or a toaster for that matter?

Melissia wrote:That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

lol. lol lol lol.

I do not limit anything, I have no preference or desire to 'limit' the potential amount of Battle Sisters.

Once again, the background, states the numbers. It states numbers as low as several hundred and as high as seven (which constitutes 'many' thousands quite nicely). However, the current number, is between three and four thousand per Order. So, irregardless of what the number of Battle Sisters can be, at the time of the 41st Millennium the figures are quite clearly set at several tens of thousands, around and probably less than forty thousand Battle Sisters.

And no matter how many times you say 'many' means hundreds of thousand it will never mean that. The numbers are printed in a background source book, I have used them, I have presented them. You have none to support your preference.


EDIT: spelling

Gogsnik wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

lol. lol lol lol.

I do not limit anything, I have no preference or desire to 'limit' the potential amount of Battle Sisters.

Once again, the background, states the numbers. It states numbers as low as several hundred and as high as seven (which constitutes 'many' thousands quite nicely). However, the current number, is between three and four thousand per Order. So, irregardless of what the number of Battle Sisters can be, at the time of the 41st Millennium the figures are quite clearly set at several tens of thousands, around and probably less than forty thousand Battle Sisters.

And no matter how many times you say 'many' means hundreds of thousand it will never mean that. The numbers are printed in a background source book, I have used them, I have presented them. You have none to support your preference.


EDIT: spelling

Good Sir, me and Melissa have both posted the back ground you speak of. It is pretty much stated in their over all role that they have large numbers.

poontangler wrote:Good Sir, me and Melissa have both posted the back ground you speak of. It is pretty much stated in their over all role that they have large numbers.

No you haven't and no it is not.

There are six Major Orders, descibed in older and current background (Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witch Hunters repsectively) as being 'by far the most numerous' Orders in relation to the Lesser Orders.

Codex: Sisters of Battle provides the following information:

In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread througout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched as needed.

Six Major Orders with a peak membership of six to seven thousand. Let us say, for sake of argument, seven thousand, that gives a grand total of forty-two thousand Battle Sisters. The Major Orders are 'by far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders, but let us say they consititute half the maximum peak number of members of the Major Orders. The new total would then by sixty-three thousand Battle Sisters.


It is not stated anywhere that they have 'large numbers'. It is categorically stated that they do not have 'large numbers'. There are several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, a force far, far less numerous than the Astartes.


If you can provide a source, any source, which has numbers, actual specific numbers, stating that there are millions of Battle Sisters then I will quite happily accept that, it would please me greatly to update my knowledge on this issue, especially of you or someone else wants to find the source and page reference and tpye out the quote for me.

If however it is merely your preference for there to be X amount of Battle Sisters because you believe that's how many there should be, well, that might suit you, but it isn't what the background tells us. How you choose to reconcile that is up to you but until someone can say go to page ... of such and such publication and you will see it clearly says there are millions of Battle Sisters then the only numbers there are say that they are few in number, much like the Astartes (although no-where near as numerous) and yet still sufficient to the tasks at hand.

Because the sisters protect all of the uncountable shrines, pilgrim routes, ecclesiarchal VIPs, fight wars of faith all across hte galaxy while having fully half of their forces stationed on Ophelia and Terra at all times... with fewer than one Sister per every fifty worlds.

Codex Sisters of Battle is superceded by Codex: Witch Hunters as the latter is more recent. GW intentionally made the number of Sisters more vague because the older numbers were stupid and they knew it. The new numbers for the amount of Sisters is "as few as a couple thousand per order at any given time, and many thousand per order at any given time.

If you don't like the fact that GW reconned it into not being actual numbers and are instead vague, tough, deal with it, that's how GW works. If I started pulling out Rogue Trader information about Sisters and claimed the Space Marines obey Sisters because the Sisters police them, most Marine players would laugh at me and tell me, rightly so, that this is old, out of date fluff which doesn't hold true anymore.

Melissia wrote:Because the sisters protect all of the uncountable shrines, pilgrim routes, ecclesiarchal VIPs, fight wars of faith all across hte galaxy while having fully half of their forces stationed on Ophelia and Terra at all times... with fewer than one Sister per every fifty worlds.

They don't always have half their number held in reserve, they do that when they have the personnel to spare.

Codex Sisters of Battle is superceded by Codex: Witch Hunters as the latter is more recent. GW intentionally made the number of Sisters more vague because the older numbers were stupid and they knew it. The new numbers for the amount of Sisters is "as few as a couple thousand per order at any given time, and many thousand per order at any given time.

If you don't like the fact that GW reconned it into not being actual numbers and are instead vague, tough, deal with it, that's how GW works.

Yawn, and if you don't like that no source says there are millions of Battle Sisters you deal with it.

Besides you don't have a clue why Games Workshop reworded the background in Codex: Witch Hunters beyond making sure it wasn't a complete copy and past job from Codex: Sisters of Battle.

The older numbers are not stupid, the Battle Sisters are a powerful and tenacious warrior elite who are more than capable of holding their own against many times their number due to their undying faith in the righteous power of the Emperor. Which doesn't even begin to cover the Frateris Militia, other Imperial cults the truly massive amount of Ecclesiarchy staff who maintain shrines et cetera and who join the Battle Sisters on Wars of Faith alongside the Imperial Guard, it isn't like the Battle Sisters do all these things in isolation by themselves.

Although, if we look at Codex: Witch Hunters we see that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of only one thousand Battle Sisters entirely congruant with the numbers established in Codex: Sisters of Battle.

And anyway, if all you're going to do is go with the most recent source to provide the numbers then that will be the 5th Edition rulebook which says quite plainly several thousand Battle Sisters for a Major Order and several hundred for a Lesser Order. Not millions...

If I started pulling out Rogue Trader information about Sisters and claimed the Space Marines obey Sisters because the Sisters police them, most Marine players would laugh at me and tell me, rightly so, that this is old, out of date fluff which doesn't hold true anymore.

They'd probably laugh but only because you'd be wrong to say that Rogue Trader says the Sororitas policed the Astartes because it doesn't.

Gogsnik wrote:Although, if we look at Codex: Witch Hunters we see that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of only one thousand Battle Sisters entirely congruant with the numbers established in Codex: Sisters of Battle.

See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. I already posted the organisation chart of the sisters of battle.

The largest being an Order; which is quite a bit larger then 1,000 sisters.

I find it rather ironic that you are accusing Melissa of "making things the way she wants them to be" when in actuality you are doing the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.

Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.

Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.

Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

ah, here it is.

Yes. This is in the codex sir.

Melissa's reference to the Sister guarding Terra, Pilgrim routes, and Imperial worlds is also in the codex.

Brother Coa wrote:One thing bother me with early days of Humanity. Mankind was once technologically more advanced even from the Tau, and what happened to that technology? I understand some of it has been lost to wars etc. but Earth was the center of it, and it was almost to the level of middle ages when the Emperor started his unification.To me it's impossible to lost technology that was present on more than million worlds in less than 15.000 years. So what happened to it?

You probably hit on it more than you know. I think GW writers love their history and the Age Of Strife is symbolic of the historic dark ages. Ironically (I think this lends proof to my assertion), the Age of Strife followed the Dark Age Of Technology, which was a time of great scientific advancement....however it's viewed as 'Dark' because mankind worshiped science as God.

The Big E (and others such as the Lady of the Magma City) represent the leaders of the enlightenment age attempting to use reason/science to advance human civilization. However, they lost (Mostly due to Chaos)...so now people pray to their flashlights before they turn them on. The Ad Mech guards most tech (Such as the Stormraven as hinted in the BA Codex)...so there could be a wealth of information/technology available....yet not released. They're a superstitious and power hungry group...so who knows.

Aren't SoB produced exclusively through the Schola Progenium? Meaning their potential recruits are also diverted off to other forces, like the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Commissariat, apparently in roughly equal numbers (how exactly do they decide who goes where, by the way? I can't recall running across that anywhere). Meaning their numbers are unlikely to be much higher than the number of Commissars, who themselves don't have numbers much higher than the total number of guard regiments.

Of course, that gives you a number around one sister for every couple thousand guardsmen, which would have them outnumbering space marines (who have a hard limit of one million in all, if I remember correctly; a maximum of one thousand chapters of a maximum of one thousand marines each) by anywhere from thousands to one to millions to one, which is still much higher than what is apparently attested to in the background (of course, the "major orders" might form only the smallest percent of the overall Adeptus Sororitas, despite being individually larger than the minor orders (which does make more sense, seeing them as a loose collection of small convents scattered around the galaxy rather than a handful of monolithic institutions; even the space marines have a thousand chapters, while the guard should have millions of regiments))...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Aren't SoB produced exclusively through the Schola Progenium? Meaning their potential recruits are also diverted off to other forces, like the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Commissariat, apparently in roughly equal numbers (how exactly do they decide who goes where, by the way? I can't recall running across that anywhere). Meaning their numbers are unlikely to be much higher than the number of Commissars, who themselves don't have numbers much higher than the total number of guard regiments.

Of course, that gives you a number around one sister for every couple thousand guardsmen, which would have them outnumbering space marines (who have a hard limit of one million in all, if I remember correctly; a maximum of one thousand chapters of a maximum of one thousand marines each) by anywhere from thousands to one to millions to one, which is still much higher than what is apparently attested to in the background (of course, the "major orders" might form only the smallest percent of the overall Adeptus Sororitas, despite being individually larger than the minor orders (which does make more sense, seeing them as a loose collection of small convents scattered around the galaxy rather than a handful of monolithic institutions; even the space marines have a thousand chapters, while the guard should have millions of regiments))...

According to what I am reading about them, they get recruits typically from war orphans, adoptions, and other various means. A good deal of the Sister's man power is dedicated towards things not involving war, or perhaps supporting the battle sisters. Apparently The Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle are commonly regarded as the same thing, but the Sisters of battle fall under the Ordos Militant, and thus are the best known part.

The Sisterhood serves as Ministorum's official military force because a decree was made that the Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain any men under arms. This was made to limit the power of the Ministorum. But the Ministorum were able to circumvent this decree by using the all-female force of the Sisterhood.

Grogsnik - you made a couplel of errors wrt FTL

FIrstly, Einstein did not say you cannot travel faster than light, just that it is normally impossible for a particle that exists <c to =c or exceed c, as your mass increases to infinitiy as you approach lightspeed. However this does not disallow you from travelling greater than or equal to c - just you can t do it by starting lower than c. Hence photons (by definition c), photinos others. Tachyons either travel faster than c OR travel backwards through time, as either is consistent with our physics model.

Secondly: warp ddrives dont actually make you travel faster than light, as you dont move - you compress and warp the fabric of space time around you, bringing objects closer to you. So you dont ever break general relativity - your mass does not increase, you dont experience time dilation, etc. MUCH cleverer people than you or I have shown that, according to the physics models we have, this IS possible - just highly impractical. Something on the order of 1billion galaxy energy input requirement.

Thidly: time dilation is simply a function of special relativity, which is that your elapsed time rate decreases as you approach c. So to an observer in the craft, outside the universe appears to speed up. So you dont "get" time dilation from FTL, as this already requires you to step outside of special relativity. Hence the forever wars (good series) elapsed time rates - you experience 1 year of travel but you have travelled, as far as the universe is concerned, for 100 years or so.

Back on topic: the more you rely on technology, the worse it gets when you have something that destroys that technology. The "bootstrap" problem gets worse - you forget, as a society, how to build the tools that build the forges that build the better tools that build the machines to build the mining equipment to get the fuel sources to help make the better tools that make the generators that power the machines to help you make.... and so on. The further up that chain you get, the more of the chain of knowledge is lost, until you get to the point where you dont understand the basis of your technology - which is the apparent case of the IoM. They simply dont understand the fundamentals of their technology, and if you cannot do that then even without the dogmatic technology = religion tight grip, akin to the religious restrictions in our own dark ages, doing anything more than maintaining and operating is vastly more difficult.>

poontangler wrote:

See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. .:

Could we stop pulling non-existant proof of non-existant millions and return to the threads topic?

poontangler wrote:
Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.

Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.

Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.

Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

Too bad you didn't quote the codex. Since ts pretty clear the common maximum of sisters in one place at the same time is rather a Preceptory than a Order.
And GW campaigns use such small numbers too.

Would it be possible to end this quest to be right about Sisters?

At least your posts should contain something about the tech of the ecclesiarchy and the effects of their teachings at the tech level of the IoM in general.

The tech of the ecclesiarchy mostly focuses on chymistry or some other misspelling of chemistry. The creation of salves, ointments, incenses, and so on is their schtick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:Too bad you didn't quote the codex. Since ts pretty clear the common maximum of sisters in one place at the same time is rather a Preceptory than a Order.

I don't think you can use GW campaigns as a real example, given that these campaigns often pretty much ignore the Sisters' presence and instead focuses on [Redacted] and glorifying the Marines.

A printed codex supporting a Campaign is pretty solid ground IMHO.
Since it has to contain 2 opposing forces, equally in glorification

The Ecclesiarchy themselves may choose the alchemists path, but how about the influence they have in educating imperial citiyens
Would they support a techfriendly stance or show tech as something to be wary?

Parts of the Sisterhood also rely on tech in a civil life: medicine, data storage/translation, etc.
Are these applications of Tech reported to have a) advancing level over time b) to be old to be better?

1hadhq wrote: A printed codex supporting a Campaign is pretty solid ground IMHO.
Since it has to contain 2 opposing forces, equally in glorification

The Ecclesiarchy themselves may choose the alchemists path, but how about the influence they have in educating imperial citiyens

The Ecclesiarchy has pretty much sole influence in educating most citizens... but the Mechanicus tends to educate about machines. Forgeworlds are deprived of most Ecclesiarchal presence, if not all, and the denizens there are educated by the Mechanicus. The Schola Progenium which trains commissars, high lords, sisters, stormtroopers, and so on and so forth (pretty much the greatest of the greats come from a Schola) is run by the Ecclesiarchy as well.

Sisters are constantly advancing their technique, but dunno about tech. Hospitaliers are seen as the best doctors and medics in the galaxy for example, but dunno if their actual tech is advancing because of this... as a side note, you don't attack a Hospitallier run hospital... they are just as capable of defending a hospital as normal Sisters, and their robes are actually considered as good protection as light carapace. Heh, there was a story in the Ecclesiarchy supplement for Dark Heresy about that, a complete route for the attacking army when they tried to invade the hospital on Tranch.

I think it can be agreed that the Imperium is technologically stagnant.

Wow, Mary Sue much?

What are the techpriests called who specialize in recovering lost technology? Explorators? They are the same or different than the techpriests that go with the IG? And if the research techpriests are shunned, are the exploring ones shunned, or feted? Seems like a cool army opportunity. Or at least a unit entry in Imperial Codexes, -- Explorator Priest. Could be like a buffed techpriest caster type.