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BORING SISTERS OF BATTLE STUFF ALERT.

Well, Explorators would be a farily common profession, searching for lost technology, and any explorator who FOUND osmething that was lost would get a lot of prestige. As far as most of the Mechanicus is concerned finding old stuff = researching your own =

Explorators explore. Not just for old tech (Though some do) they explore for everything, new planets... other space thingies...

poontangler wrote:See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. I already posted the organisation chart of the sisters of battle.

This would be the perfect example of somebody not reading somone's post properly I didn't say an Order was 1,000 Battle Sisters strong, I said, as the Codex says, that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of 1,000 Battle Sisters.

when in actuality you are doing the same thing.

I'm doing the same thing as Melissia? So you concede she is making things up then? *joke*

I'm quoting the numbers from the background, I'm not making up anything. If the background actually said 'millions of Battle Sisters are active across the Imperium' then naturally I would say that there are millions of Battle Sisters but it doesn't say that.

Yes. This is in the codex sir.

Then you should quote it correctly instead of re-wording it to suit your own agenda. It says that a Preceptory is 'the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1,000 Battle Sisters, cloistered at one location.' In other words an Order would never have more than 1,000 Battle Sisters stationed anywhere in the galaxy ever, even then in areas of the most intense combat which indicates fewer rather than greater numbers. If there were millions of Battle Sisters, hundreds of thousands per Greater Order why limit themselves to only fielding 1,000 in one location? Imagine the impact of a million, powered armoured, bolter wielding fanatics at Cadia, the Chaos forces wouldn't stand a chance or imagine them invading the Tau Empire even, such a force would be unstoppable.

Melissa's reference to the Sister guarding Terra, Pilgrim routes, and Imperial worlds is also in the codex.

And is completely irrelevent in terms of establishing the number of Battle Sisters in the Imperium. The power of even a single squad of Battle Sisters is an immense military force, having one or two here and there to defend the most precious relics and shrines seems perfectly in order as, afterall, there will be a plethora of members of the Ecclesiarchy attending such places and perfectly ready to lay down their lives in defence of such artefacts, pilgrims or whatever.

Besides, let us use Melissia's tack; Codex: Witch Hunters is superceded by the 5th Edition Rulebook as the latter is more recent and the Rulebook says several thousand Battle Sisters for a Major Order and several hundred for a Lesser Order. Not millions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grogsnik - you made a couplel of errors wrt FTL

I stand corrected then.

Still, I would say it only highlights the difficulty in creating an FTL drive explaining why pre-Age of Strife Humanity never achieved it assuming they ever bothered since the Warp and later the Navigator gene made such technology unnecessary.

You have to remember, Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. Your argument is mostly coming from the perspective of "individual orders are extremely small," when there's no indication that there are only a few of these small orders. Scatter minor orders bringing the total number well into the millions matches what can be extrapolated from the fact that Commissars are also drawn from the same pool of recruits in the Schola Progenium, meaning the Sororitas would have equal or greater numbers than the Commissariat, which has at least one Commissar for every Guard regiment, and considering the sheer scale of the Imperium (which means many billions, or even trillions, of guardsmen, organized into regiments several thousand strong, meaning many millions of regiments), that means there would have to be millions of SoB.

Space Marines are the intolerable Mary Sues of 40K, and even they get a thousand chapters a thousand strong. SoB are normal humans with some token training, powered armor that's more gold plating than armor, and a psychotically unshakable faith in the righteousness of the Ecclesiarchy (home to the absolute worst excesses and incompetence of the Imperial Command structure). Why on Earth would their numbers be less than the Space Mary-Sues?

I was wondering that...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Your argument is mostly coming from the perspective of "individual orders are extremely small," when there's no indication that there are only a few of these small orders.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here but we know there are six Major Orders and, as far as the background tells us, the Major Orders are 'far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders. That seems pretty straight forward to me but make of it what you will.

Scatter minor orders bringing the total number well into the millions

See above, we know the numbers for Major Orders and they are more numerous than the Lesser Orders, it doesn't follow that the Lesser Orders number in the millions at all.

matches what can be extrapolated from the fact that Commissars are also drawn from the same pool of recruits in the Schola Progenium, meaning the Sororitas would have equal or greater numbers than the Commissariat, which has at least one Commissar for every Guard regiment, and considering the sheer scale of the Imperium (which means many billions, or even trillions, of guardsmen, organized into regiments several thousand strong, meaning many millions of regiments), that means there would have to be millions of SoB.

The number of Commissars has absolutely no bearing on the number of Sororitas and to suggest that they do is an entirely fallacious argument.

This also fails to take into account that the Schola Progenium is a place for the orphans of Imperial Servants, not a place for every child in the Imperium or even most of them. It does not take into account that the majority of Progena are destined for the Adeptus Terra, only the select few become Commissars, Sororitas, Inquisitors or members of the Officio Assassinorm. Nor indeed do these institutions recruit solely from the Schola Progenium, it is merely a useful place to find disciplined and indoctrinated potential recruits.

Why on Earth would their numbers be less than the Space Mary-Sues?

That has no bearing on how many there actually are. It should also be remembered that the Sororitas only exist due to the tenuous argument that the Decree Passive forbids the Ecclesiarchy maintaining men under arms but does not specify women, that the Ecclesiarchy even have a military force as powerful as the Sororitas at all is a great boon. Considering the attitude of the Sororitas to potential recruits there is no reason to suppose that they would swell their numbers to hundreds of thousands or millions just for the sake of it.

For instance, when the Sororitas was founded there were only 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor, split into two Convents. With recruits coming from the Schola Progenium once more the Sororitas ranks grew to 10,000. Skip ahead two and half thousand years and two more Orders were formed and the Convent buildings were expanded to accomadate a whopping *gasp* 15,000 warriors each. However, as I've said many times and no-one seems inclined to acknowledge the current numbers of Battle Sisters is down on the numbers that existed in those earlier times. There is no indication that there exist, or have existed millions of Battle Sisters.

Like I say, if the background mentioned such huge figures that would be great but it doesn't. The numbers we are given account for several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters not millions.

Also, like I say, if there were millions of Battle Sisters that would be a military force certainly more numerous and arguably more powerful than the Legionnes Astartes during the Great Crusade, such a force would sweep all before it. Is such a force indicated in the background though? The answer is no.


However, since none of this has anything to do with technology and since I've indulged in replying to posts far more times than I should have I'm going to stop here.

Most female graduates of the Schola Progenium are Sisters, as pointed out by Ciaphas Cain, female Commissars, Stormtroopers, etc are rare because the Ecclesiarchy is generally pushing its female Schola students to join the Sisterhood. By the way, are people still actually paying attention to Gogsnik?

Silverthorne wrote:Wow, Mary Sue much?

All Sisters graduate from the Schola Progenium, the same school which also produces stormtroopers and commissars. No Sister is without remarkable combat ability due to that simple fact, though Battle Sisters specialize in it.

Melissia wrote: By the way, are people still actually paying attention to Gogsnik? All Sisters graduate from the Schola Progenium, the same school which also produces stormtroopers and commissars. No Sister is without remarkable combat ability due to that simple fact, though Battle Sisters specialize in it.

I lost interest it became a thing of if say white he is going to say black.

But back to the subject of Imperial Technology, I find it Ironic that the Imperium worships the emperor, and technology, considering the Emperors apparent Atheism, and a strong belief in science.

and the fluff from the necron codex that hints rather strongly that the Machine God is a C'tan and that a fair bit of the Mechanicus tech is based on Necron tech

I had an interesting thought one day...
I watched "SG-1" and StarGate reminds me of webway. IF webways can get you anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of moments is it possible there is one webway leading to other galaxy?
And if Eldar are the successors of the Old Ones, how that they can't build new webways? Or colonize new worlds outside Imperial domain?
Ork technology is like moder day gypsy-homeless space program, Then how the hell do Orks travel to new planets? Do they use warp or they just float to another planet?

To me SoB are one of the most powerful military arms of the Imperium. They are like SM only lack genetic alterations, but have much stronger faith than marines. The only two defeats I know they suffer is at Sanctuary 101 (witch was surprise attack) and Kaurava conflict (where they where overpowered by IG). In every other battle they have won, and for that army that's beyond excellent. And their use of flamers and meltas make them excellent against infantry at close combat and armor.

The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

Brother Coa wrote:I had an interesting thought one day...
I watched "SG-1" and StarGate reminds me of webway. IF webways can get you anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of moments is it possible there is one webway leading to other galaxy?

There aren't "webways," there is a single "webway," which is a labyrinthine network of passages and chambers, some quite large, like those making up Commoragh, and some barely large enough to pass through on foot, which has even less relation to the materium than the warp apparently does, since that can be navigated by ships moving in a more or less straight line from point a to point b. The webway can also be reconfigured by its inhabitants, and some Craftworld Eldar. There also happen to be severely damaged sections, where the warp bleeds through, caused by the birth of Slaanesh if I recall correctly. If there are passages that lead to other galaxies, either they've been destroyed, are lost (it is an incomprehensible labyrinth, after all), are past areas that can't be safely traveled due to warp leakage, or only the Harlequins know about them, and aren't sharing the knowledge.

And if Eldar are the successors of the Old Ones, how that they can't build new webways? Or colonize new worlds outside Imperial domain?

They're not the successors, they're the creations of the Old Ones; though they can't repair the damaged sections of the webway (or lack the will to do so), I believe they can create new entrances, as the portable gates available to Dark Eldar would suggest such.

The Craftworld Eldar can't colonize new worlds because they're too busy angsting with angsty angst about how they're dying because they don't take measures to recover and instead just sit around angstily angsting about their sorry predicament.

The Exodites can't colonize new worlds because they live in a self-inflicted stone age on planets in the middle of nowhere.

The Dark Eldar could, but don't because Commoragh is more than large enough for their needs, if it ever was not they could simply add more space to it (it's already described as making the largest of Imperial hives look like an anthill beside a mountain, implying that volume-wise it's a good deal larger than a planet, most of which is habitable structure), and it serves as a safe haven, being unassailable unless invaders are deliberately let in with someone with the power to do so (or apparently if gigantic mary sues with obscene amounts of plot armor commit inexcusable heresy and use captured Dark Eldar ships to sneak a few squads through a gate, according to someone's account of a Salamanders book), at which point they may be easily isolated (as Commoragh is a piecemeal collection of interconnected webway chambers, rather than one large space), and would be outnumbered by the trillions by the most advanced race in the galaxy, barring perhaps the Necrons (who being mindless automatons can't really be said to be too advanced, aside from what went into their initial construction).

Ork technology is like moder day gypsy-homeless space program, Then how the hell do Orks travel to new planets? Do they use warp or they just float to another planet?

Space hulks (mostly random travel), Roks (semi-guided travel), and teleporters (either and/or both random and guided, considering they're orks after all).

To me SoB are one of the most powerful military arms of the Imperium. They are like SM only lack genetic alterations, but have much stronger faith than marines. The only two defeats I know they suffer is at Sanctuary 101 (witch was surprise attack) and Kaurava conflict (where they where overpowered by IG). In every other battle they have won, and for that army that's beyond excellent. And their use of flamers and meltas make them excellent against infantry at close combat and armor.

I know they get butchered by the thousands in one of the Cain books, fighting a tyranid swarm, though that was penance for [REDACTED]*, and then there's the scene in the otherwise horrendous book Grey Knights, where several hundred have about half a dozen Grey Knights pummel through them, and later get hacked apart by a few hundred Guardsmen led by the rogue Inquisitor.

*

Found this little bit of Info from Titan Legions back in 1994

By their efforts much information has been retrieved or can be reconstructed by the vigorous analysis and comparison of copies. Yet the most technically-advanced knowledge eludes the Adeptus Mechanicus, for the early colonists were mostly simple folk whose needs were practical. Only rarely did anyone bother to take copies of the theoretical and advanced work which the STC contained.

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Actually, Cyrus (And Avitus/Tarkus) stated that the Kaurava Conflict was a great loss for the Chapter, a blight on their history, and that Boreale and many others died. That was all. He didn't even really say that the Space Marines lost the conflict, just put into terms that imply they either lost, or it was a pyrrhic victory. Relic actually refuses to give a canonical ending bar that the Space Marines lost so many.

The hundred Baneblades a month is fictitious. It's unknown how long it took them to build, crew and ship the Baneblades that were sent across the sector in the Kaurava campaign, so stating they had a hundred a month is simply making a figure up. The only thing we do know is they'd recently shipped one hundred Baneblades across the sector shortly before their stronghold was attacked, and thus didn't have one on hand to repel the invaders.

It was also poor writing on ILE's part to use a figure so large for such a revered and hard to produce super-heavy class tank. Having one super-heavy in a regiment is considered a great asset, the sheer amount of firepower they bring is enormous. Stating that the 252nd Conservator Regiment was able to mass-produce them, on a scale as least equalling a forge-world, if not greatly exceeding, was poor form.

It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to.

No, he did not, and no, they did not.

Cyrus said that Karuava was a mistake. That's all. I have stayed ontop of Relic's blog since DoW2 began, they have not declared a winner, it's intended to be specifically vague.

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Actually, Cyrus (And Avitus/Tarkus) stated that the Kaurava Conflict was a great loss for the Chapter, a blight on their history, and that Boreale and many others died. That was all. He didn't even really say that the Space Marines lost the conflict, just put into terms that imply they either lost, or it was a pyrrhic victory. Relic actually refuses to give a canonical ending bar that the Space Marines lost so many.

The hundred Baneblades a month is fictitious. It's unknown how long it took them to build, crew and ship the Baneblades that were sent across the sector in the Kaurava campaign, so stating they had a hundred a month is simply making a figure up. The only thing we do know is they'd recently shipped one hundred Baneblades across the sector shortly before their stronghold was attacked, and thus didn't have one on hand to repel the invaders.

It was also poor writing on ILE's part to use a figure so large for such a revered and hard to produce super-heavy class tank. Having one super-heavy in a regiment is considered a great asset, the sheer amount of firepower they bring is enormous. Stating that the 252nd Conservator Regiment was able to mass-produce them, on a scale as least equalling a forge-world, if not greatly exceeding, was poor form.

" Officially, the Kaurava Campaign was ultimately won by the Imperial Guard's 252nd Conservator Regiment under the command of General Vance Stubbs and the Kaurava System remained a part of the Imperium of Man."
From the Wikipedia - and for the record, Cyrus mentioned that at the end of the game. Also there is a wargear - Iron Halo that was intended for Boreale. The explanation states that Kaurava was not conquered, AT LEAST NOT BY BLOOD RAVENS. So it only left IG and SoB. Ana as told that sisters was overpowered by the Guard share number, and Lexicanum state that Agna died - it only leaves Imperial Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to.

No, he did not, and no, they did not.

Cyrus said that Karuava was a mistake. That's all. I have stayed ontop of Relic's blog since DoW2 began, they have not declared a winner, it's intended to be specifically vague.

Read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

Ascalam wrote:and the fluff from the necron codex that hints rather strongly that the Machine God is a C'tan and that a fair bit of the Mechanicus tech is based on Necron tech

Oh a post ON Topic.

Hard to find one between the pirating of this thread

Yes, the hints are there and C'tan / necron are not the worst source for technology. They should just hand over their space drives and gauss weapons .
Teleporting guard with disintegrators

It would not be surprising, A Tomb Ship did actually try to land on mars.

poontangler wrote:It would not be surprising, A Tomb Ship did actually try to land on mars.

2... and they managed it... though i think they were blow up before they could escape... Necrons really are scarily more advanced than most other races.

Tomb ship? Cairn class?

IIRC it were cruisers and they got blown up,

Death on Arrival.

Just remember: the necrons don't like tresspassers in their tombs, but do not oppose the IoM openly.
They get along with BA, so watch them closely ( I fear mr ward does the necron dex, right? ).

It is however, remarkable that necrons teleport and the IoM also does. Be inspired..

Now, the necrons may dislike the ad mechs as possible groupies, but why not tease the tech addicts with a few secrets?
Baiting the food ressource of the future when their C'tan masters are hungry.

In the Cain books the Necrons are weird. They seem to not be paying attention half thye time, and other times they are alerted by anything.

Brother Coa wrote:

Read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

I've never read anything about the IG winning the Kaurava campaign and the only stuff about the outcome I've heard is about the Spess Mehreens losing the campaign. Cyrus speaks about the death and incompetence of captain Boreale who led the operation but I've never heard him say anything about the IG under Vance Stubbs. However, some people have been pretty fanatically ranting about the IG winning Kaurava but it has always been fan-fic, and until I see some real sources about an IG victory in Kaurava I'm gonna presume somebody managed to post his own fantasy about the outcome on wikipedia.

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Cain never has anything good to say about "pious fools" and "Emperor botherers," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the Ciaphas Cain series is a remake of Flashman in the 40K universe (Flashman says similar things less often, but they're also generally far more obscene than Cain's comments), even mimicking its rhetorical devices and writing style. The only big thematic differences are that Cain, despite his self-deprecation, is written far more positively, and his superiors aren't bumbling idiots.

Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

I glanced at a book that had four space marines holding off a Kabal of Dark Eldar. I avoid the books to be honest.

Well the book to Fire Warrior was actually quite good.

poontangler wrote:Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

Well they are a bit tongue in cheek but then the actual usefulness of any Black Library novel in background terms is and has been debated.

As for the Necrons, if Mechanicum is anything to go by then the Emperor did succeed in defeating the Dragon and imprisoning it with the Noctis Labyrinthus with the specific intention that the Dragon would invade the minds of the future Martian colonists and provide them with advanced technological knowledge. Obviously for its own ends but harnessed by the Emperor they would provide all of the technology He required for the Great Crusade as while as to make Martians a reverential attitude towards machines that would lead to the Mechanicum and thus allow them to retain technological knowledge during the Age of Strife.

Gogsnik wrote:

poontangler wrote:Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

Well they are a bit tongue in cheek but then the actual usefulness of any Black Library novel in background terms is and has been debated.

As for the Necrons, if Mechanicum is anything to go by then the Emperor did succeed in defeating the Dragon and imprisoning it with the Noctis Labyrinthus with the specific intention that the Dragon would invade the minds of the future Martian colonists and provide them with advanced technological knowledge. Obviously for its own ends but harnessed by the Emperor they would provide all of the technology He required for the Great Crusade as while as to make Martians a reverential attitude towards machines that would lead to the Mechanicum and thus allow them to retain technological knowledge during the Age of Strife.

Brother Coa wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

You, sir, have been trolled.

That quote and wiki page do not have a source for that information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Cain never has anything good to say about "pious fools" and "Emperor botherers," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the Ciaphas Cain series is a remake of Flashman in the 40K universe (Flashman says similar things less often, but they're also generally far more obscene than Cain's comments), even mimicking its rhetorical devices and writing style. The only big thematic differences are that Cain, despite his self-deprecation, is written far more positively, and his superiors aren't bumbling idiots.

THat's the thing-- sisters are pious... but not fools. They have the best military training in the Imperium barring the Space Marines (who have better if only because they live far longer and have a biology allowing them to train for longer).

I would argue that Imperial Guard Storm Troopers come up at least equal to, if not superior to the Sisterhood in terms of training. To be honest, they would likely also have more experience in the field as compared to your average Sister. I like to think of the Sisters of Battle being the 'Second Military' that many nations, especially dictatorships, maintain. They're very reliable as far as political (or religious) loyalty, and can be counted on to serve as such. However, they do not constantly see service in War. From what I can tell, the Sisters primary duty is protecting shrines, and guarding pilgrimage routes, and on occasion waging Wars of Faith. They are not pitched into the front line like Storm Troopers are.