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Trickstick wrote:

halonachos wrote:Okay, got the exterminator and executioner confused again. Stupid letter 'e'.

Remember it like this: the exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. It is the executioner that executes them.

You know its bad when you have to apply studying tips to a hobby.

Well if you hand write it a 100 times i'll give you a gold star.

Trickstick wrote: I am going to assume that FC works with the hunting lance otherwise he is just broken; I can't imagine anyone would knowingly give a unit a rule they couldn't use.

Sad, but true. FC doesn't actually work with hunting lances.

Deceiver wrote: That 24'' range allows you to sit him back and centered on the board acting as a safety net stopping units from falling back off the table with the 'Get back in the fight' order. Also you can gain huge benifits from the Bring it down order, especially if you have a few HWS kicking around. Whether it be lascannons for vehicles or even Heavy bolters/Autocannons for MC's. Another good point to raise is that if you use a blobbed infantry platoon the 'For the honour of Cadia' rule becomes very powerful for a guard army

Firstly, heavy weapons teams are likely to be too close to the board edge to be able to recieve "get back in the fight", and given that they need to make two fall-back moves before they have the option of taking the order, they're likely already gone. Plus, you still have to PASS the order on Ld7. As for Bid, once again, HWSs and SWSs are only Ld7, and can't take voxes, so they're not all that likely to recieve the order, no matter how far away he can shout them from.

As for the honor of cadia, this makes power blobs WORSE. Yes, you get +1 S, but when you lose combat anyways, you're not making a rerollable stubborn check, you're making armor saves. Those abblative wounds are worth their weight in gold once you get locked in, so getting rid of them for your enemy is a bad thing indeed.

Sad, but true. FC doesn't actually work with hunting lances.

Was this officially FAQ'd? Because unless it has this is a never ending rule debate. I side on the fact that the ability is worthless if it doesn't work, ergo, they intended it to work

Okay, here i go: Why wouldn't FC add +1 to the modified S/I 5?
and i truely am asking, not trying to start a war. it seems to me the bonus would
be added provided they are assaulting for the first time and the HL are still around!

The correct answer to your question is none. None of the IG characters are Worth their points. You can always take something better for the points.

Sure Creed + Kell make a good team if your doing a certain strategy.

Sure Marbo is BadA$$ and can throw a charge just about anywhere. (He is a glorified 65 pt one hit wonder KP)

In the end none of them are worth the points. Run a generic guard list and you will do better. Trust me only use IG named characters and IC's for themed armies.

Tomb King wrote:The correct answer to your question is none. None of the IG characters are Worth their points. You can always take something better for the points.

Sure Creed + Kell make a good team if your doing a certain strategy.

Sure Marbo is BadA$$ and can throw a charge just about anywhere. (He is a glorified 65 pt one hit wonder KP)

In the end none of them are worth the points. Run a generic guard list and you will do better. Trust me only use IG named characters and IC's for themed armies.

I disagree.
creed- only for some armies.
kell- a nullified lord commissar.
yarrick- apoc. only. only works in particular armies in particular units against particular races.
harker- meh. Never seen him in action.
straken- well worth it. As tough as yarrick, and better weapons.
marbo- worth it. He kills, say, a few terminators then dies. Makes up his points, just don't expect him to live through the following turn.
all the rest I've never used or seen.

Chenkovis worth it when it comes to objective based games as stated earlier.

Its not an order and can be done any turn automatically.

Trickstick wrote:Well if you hand write it a 100 times i'll give you a gold star.

exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
Gold star please!

The FC/Hunting Lance thing is interesting... but why would Cruddace give a unit a special rule they can't use? It just seems asinine.

Oh well. Back on topic:

At first I was leery of Straken because of his hefty price tag, but after a few games of him pounding Archons into the dirt I've incorporated him into my 1850 list as an anchor for my 2 powerblobs. People compare him to Creed, but they don't belong in the same armies, IMO.

Straken helps improve the blobs killiness and resilience, and can "bail out" blobs that are in over their heads.

Creed improves orders... so HWTs, SWTs, etc.

Just my opinions on them from the games I've played with em'

odorofdeath wrote:The FC/Hunting Lance thing is interesting... but why would Cruddace give a unit a special rule they can't use? It just seems asinine.

Oh well. Back on topic:

At first I was leery of Straken because of his hefty price tag, but after a few games of him pounding Archons into the dirt I've incorporated him into my 1850 list as an anchor for my 2 powerblobs. People compare him to Creed, but they don't belong in the same armies, IMO.

Straken helps improve the blobs killiness and resilience, and can "bail out" blobs that are in over their heads.

Creed improves orders... so HWTs, SWTs, etc.

Just my opinions on them from the games I've played with em'

I might have him for my IG blob...
>inner voice< "NO! NO! Shrike, you already have 30 HQ choices in your 4 armies! NO MORE!"
I guess not...
counts-as..?
>inner voice<"...mmmkay, but much later on."
there we are.

Yes, clearly FC was INTENDED to work with the lances, but it doesn't.

Look at the wording for the hunting lances...

"...a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at strength and initiative 5."

The lances strike at S5, just like poisoned weapons wound on a 3+ or a wraithgun pens on a 5 or a 6. It's a special rule for the weapon.

Then you look at the entry for FC, and it says that it increases the model's S characteristic by one.

So, when you furious charge with a hunting lance, you have a S4 model that attacks at S5. This is different than, say, power fists, which double the user's strength, and then you can add one more with FC.

Whilst RAW the hunting lances don't work, I don't think anyone, anywhere, ever would begrudge the IG player stacking FC with the lances. The intention is so blatently obvious that denying them the bonuses would just instantly turn you into TFG, and I just don't see any reasonable gamer ever calling the IG player on it.

So really, whilst we know it shouldn't stack, I think we can all reach a conclusion more based on common sense than anything else and, for once, not be such rules Nazis and let this little triviality go.

L. Wrex

Here's what the FAQ has to say.

The big lesson with IG is that your basic guys suck, but are really really cheap. As a result, it's almost ALWAYS a better option to just buy more bodies instead of trying to shell at points making fewer bodies a bit better. As a result, where in most codexes the heroes and characters are the big hitters who are gods of battle....IG characters are just a bit.....lackluster. However, they do have a place in battle at least.


Creed and Kell- Useful in some gunline armies, I could see 'For the Honor of Cadia' being useful with power blobs IF you can just crush and wipe out all of the enemy turn 1. Otherwise, well, you're almost always striking second, and you're going to lose combat by a lot. With a Commissar that's not too bad, but Fearless makes it a pain in the ass. Of course, Creed and Kell do work with massed gunline armies, and it oculd be a nice classic fluffy build, but 'For the Honro of Cadia' just isn't the melee buff it's intended to be, especially since Commissars are available easy. He does shine in bigger games where his 'Tactical Genius' rule can be used to bring in REALLY nasty things.

Pask-I actually like Pask, even though he's expensive and doesn't really do enough to justify his points. It might just be the tread head in me, but I love the idea of one of my tanks becoming a Tiger ace, so once again I see a lot of use for fluff reasons. I personally have a Vanquisher kitted out with Pask and a lascannon, and I like keeping track of his armour and MC kills. It's quite fun. And yes, while he's unreliable there's always the one time where you score a one shot kill on an enemy Land Raider from across the entire board that just make you love the guy.

Bastonne-Your one stop dead tank shop. Bring it Down melta guns will be death incarnate against Land Raiders, and once again you have to consider the benefit of forcing your enemy's fancy terminators to hoof it across the board instead of being in their nice mobile fortress. Of course, using him with BiD plasma guns against an enemy Long Fang/Devastator/Heavy Weapons Squad is also a viable option. In certain lists, I could see Bastonne working quite well.

Straken- He sounds awesome on paper, and he's a hard hitter in close combat at a fairly decent price. I could see him easily being a huge buff to a power blob IG army. Furious charge without the Fearless problem that Creed has is something powerblob players just love to death. Of course, you're going to have to be careful that you keep your power blobs together...but with a 12" radius it's not that bad a problem, but the limiting on your mobility is always a thing to note.

Marbo-Nice suicide unit. Drop in, kill some dangerous backfield units, and if you survive go on a minor rampage against slightly weaker back field stuff. I atually really do like Marbo, I used to run him and he is awesome. My favorite anecdote is this one time he dropped in, killed about 6 Termies with his demo charge. Yeah they killed him next turn but he bought his points back, AND bought me more time to shoot my enemy to bits. He's always a nice surprise, and can be quite an annoyance in close combat, especially against the backfield troops who aren't specialized CC specialists. One thing to consider is that Marbo hits at I5, is WS5, and auto wounds on a 2+, and has 5 attacks on the charge. He'd be quite useful against a lower or equal initiative MC, no?

Harker-Could be useful, but to be honest the heavy bolter isn't that awesome of a weapon, and sure Infiltrate is nice, but if you're just doing this to get a melta vet squad close to the enemy? Well, the IG has better ways to do that in all honesty....

Yarrick-Expensive as hell, very tough to kill, but for a power blob army Straken is the better choice thanks to both the Furious Charge, Counter-Attack and the ability to give orders. Yarrick does have his place though in higher point games when you can take him in addition to some of the better options. Then his close combat abilities and toughness really come into play. That and his memetic badassness meadns he's a nice fluff addition, espeically to Steel Legion armies.

Al'Rahem-He's great. With outflanking a whole infantry platoon you can totally knock your enemy off balance since the entire way the battle is fought just changed. His backfield is no longer 'secure' and he has to fight a two front war now. And yeah...he really is quite nice. Just be sure to take an Astropath so he shows up on the right side of the table.

Chenkov-Gimmicky, but as has been pointed out, he does have his advantages with his recyclable Conscripts. But really, his functions are better taken by other units. I mean, 12" Stubborn radius is nice and all, but I'd rather be taking those tests on rerollable leadership 9, not leadership 8. If you want the feel of the Soviet steam roller in the 41st millenium, go ahead and take him cause of that, but he's not the best as far as actual rules go.

Mogul Kamir-If Furious Charg stacks with lances, he's just useless and far too expensive to use. Not to mention, he forces you to use a scalpel like a mallet....taking him just gives you a dead rough rider squad, or a rough rider squad that charges something that's not the best thing to charge. If it doesn't stack? Well, he then becomes an investment that makes your unit WORSE rather than better. Unless he's central to your fluff, don't take him.

Nork-Yes, he has his uses, but to be honest? He's the worst 110 points you could ever buy. Not cause he in and of himself is bad, but jsut cause of his cost. I mean I could see a CCS with Nork and Straken just being GOD as far as close combat goes, but there are so many better things you could buy for his cost.....I could get Veterans with meltas, a Valkyrie, a Hydra? There are so many other nice things to buy in this codex that Nork just doesn't shine.

Mastermind wrote:Here's what the FAQ has to say.

Fine. But I'd still let the IG player have a first round of combat at S6, otherwise Kamir is the only special character in existance that makes a unit worse rather than better.

L. Wrex

ChrisWWII wrote:Of course, using him with BiD plasma guns against an enemy Long Fang/Devastator/Heavy Weapons Squad is also a viable option.

None of those units are vehicles or monstrous creatures.

Bastonne lets you issue CCS orders without using the CCS. A lot of the time you could just use a CCS in the same role for 80 points less. Maybe you're out of HQ slots, maybe you need the unit to score as well. Eh, possibly maybe sometimes useful. Oh, and for hilarity's sake put a vox caster in Bastonne's squad.

Raxmei wrote: Oh, and for hilarity's sake put a vox caster in Bastonne's squad.

How else
Bastonne's orders should auto-pass in order for him to almost be worth the price. Heck, it even fits the fluffyness of "It's up to us, lads!"

As for Mogul Kamir, in WHFB the rage rule gives everyone +1 attack at all times. Why not give his squad +1 attack then? While being completely murderous when used with boomsticks, it also makes perfect sense. His squad is already raging, furious and handicapped (which simply makes them MADDER!).

Nobody uses rough riders anyway (unfortunately). Fixing a REALLY broken character shouldn't be too much to ask for.

ChrisWWII wrote: I used to run him and he is awesome. My favorite anecdote...

Actually, this is the best reason to take Marbo. It's not the Demo charge, the no-scatter deepstriking, the sniper pistol, the poisoned blade, or the more special rules than wargear.

It's because Marbo ALWAYS comes with stories. Creed may be neato, and al'rahem might be good, but nobody plays Marbo without at least a couple of tales of his awesomeness. I've only used him sparingly, and even I have stories...

Oh, and Chenkov also has a niche role of allowing you to give units stubborn without taking commissars.

I have played with Harker and Bastonne a couple times. Here is my input on them.

Harker- for the price of a Chimera, you get a HB in a Vet Squad which now has Stealth, Move through Cover, can Infiltrate and has Scout.. There are two ways I have ran him successfully. First is with 3xGL or PG and an Autocannon inflitrating into cover. This gives you a squad with 3+ Saves, and a possibility of 2-8 Str7 shots and 3 Str 5 shots. Or, 2 Str7 shots, 3 Str 6 shots and 3 Str 5 shots. Going to ground gives them a 2+ save. As long as they are not assaulted they will last all game unless they fall victim to a flamer. I had one game where they lasted all 6 rounds, at the end only Harker and 3 guys were alive, but they took a ridiculous amount of fire for 6 turns.

The other way I have used him is the same set up but in a Chimera with a HB. Its just an insane bunker.

Bastonne- with a squad of 3 Meltas and Demolitions riding in a Vendetta or Valkyrie will murder a good amount of vehicles in an alpha strike. Sure its 190 points, but would you trade 190 points for getting a multi charge on 3 transports? I know I would. Making the opponent walk across the board is just such a huge advantage for IG.

They both have their place, much like every char in the army. And if used correctly they can be very useful.

Ailaros wrote:

Actually, this is the best reason to take Marbo. It's not the Demo charge, the no-scatter deepstriking, the sniper pistol, the poisoned blade, or the more special rules than wargear.

It's because Marbo ALWAYS comes with stories. Creed may be neato, and al'rahem might be good, but nobody plays Marbo without at least a couple of tales of his awesomeness. I've only used him sparingly, and even I have stories...

shrike wrote:

Trickstick wrote:Well if you hand write it a 100 times i'll give you a gold star.

exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
...
exterminator does not make an ex-terminator. executioner executes them.
Gold star please!

Sorry Shrike, i did say hand write, not type. Did you actually type all that out? you missed "the" off the front anyway.

Mastermind wrote:Nobody uses rough riders anyway (unfortunately). Fixing a REALLY broken character shouldn't be too much to ask for.

I am starting to use them, was supposed to play today but the game fell through. I am thinking that they can be used well to cover a weak point in the army. Now all I need is a way to make a mechanical cold one...

Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, heavy weapons teams are likely to be too close to the board edge to be able to recieve "get back in the fight", and given that they need to make two fall-back moves before they have the option of taking the order, they're likely already gone. Plus, you still have to PASS the order on Ld7. As for Bid, once again, HWSs and SWSs are only Ld7, and can't take voxes, so they're not all that likely to recieve the order, no matter how far away he can shout them from.

Get Back in the Fight's value is for units that have Gone to Ground. HWS takes S6 wounds, goes to ground, makes 3+ cover saves - hopefully - then passes Ld check to get to it.

The Ld7 is a problem, but there are a few solutions for that as well. These include the commonly known and relatively expensive Lord Commissar and Kell, and the seldom - or is it never? - used option of Witch Hunter allies.

Regarding the original post, Al'Rahem is the bee's knees. In addition to all his other tricks, he can insta-kill a Trygon Prime!

I think rough riders would be best against armies like the Tau where you need to tie up some enemy shooting units. Use them to take out a battlesuit or a broadside and then charge into the firewarriors or kroot if you need to stop their CC.

Then engage their other units without having to worry about their gun lines, heck if you spread your riders out long enough you may be able to engage more than one squad at once.

Now against the Orks and their 30 boy squads I'm a tad bit iffy. Sure its a chance of 21 hits and 21 kills, but its a big risk.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, clearly FC was INTENDED to work with the lances, but it doesn't.

Look at the wording for the hunting lances...

"...a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at strength and initiative 5."

The lances strike at S5, just like poisoned weapons wound on a 3+ or a wraithgun pens on a 5 or a 6. It's a special rule for the weapon.

Then you look at the entry for FC, and it says that it increases the model's S characteristic by one.

So, when you furious charge with a hunting lance, you have a S4 model that attacks at S5. This is different than, say, power fists, which double the user's strength, and then you can add one more with FC.

So he's just made a rough rider squad WORSE by giving it FC?

shrike wrote: So he's just made a rough rider squad WORSE by giving it FC?

Not really, FC doesn't work with hunting lances so essentially you pay 4 x the price of a single RR upgrade to give your entire unit Rage and...nothing else.

L. Wrex

But rage is bad. It makes your S5 riders charge after land raiders and stuff.

shrike wrote:But rage is bad. It makes your S5 riders charge after land raiders and stuff.

Exactly. Which is why Mogul Kamir is honestly the worst special character in any codex, simply because he doesn't even make the unit better. He makes it WORSE. You are paying for a character to come in and screw up your unit.

Raxmei wrote:None of those units are vehicles or monstrous creatures.

I'm an idiot, my apologies. Of course, BiD plasma guns could still work against a charging Carnifex or whatever. The point is, he's flexible enough to be useful provided you use him correctly. But I do have to say that Bastonne's strength is that he allows your veterans to operate with the benefit of orders even far far away from you CCS. If you wanted to use the CCS to do the same thing, (to save 10 points mind you) not only would you have to buy the CCS, but you'd also have to find a way to GET the CCS in order range of the Vets, which means their own Valkyrie or whatever. If you have deepstriking vets, and you really, REALLY need to have a tank dead on turn 1, Bastonne is the way to go.

ChrisWWII wrote:But I do have to say that Bastonne's strength is that he allows your veterans to operate with the benefit of orders even far far away from you CCS. If you wanted to use the CCS to do the same thing, (to save 10 points mind you) not only would you have to buy the CCS, but you'd also have to find a way to GET the CCS in order range of the Vets, which means their own Valkyrie or whatever. If you have deepstriking vets, and you really, REALLY need to have a tank dead on turn 1, Bastonne is the way to go.

And I say the vet squad is not strictly necessary. Pack a CCS with the same weapons as you would the vets, let the officer give himself orders, and go do whatever the vet squad would have done. It comes in cheaper than a vet squad by 20 points even without Bastonne though it is obviously a smaller squad and takes up an HQ slot. Bastonne's vet squad becomes necessary after you've run out of HQ or if for some reason you absolutely must use a vet squad.

That is true, but like you said you're using up an HQ slot for what is essentially a suicide unit. Sure, it doesn't cost as many points as the Vet squad coming in at about 190 points (CCS, 4 meltas, Valk) where as the Vets would be 260 (Vets, 3 Meltas, Bastonne, Valk). Your approach I think would work best with a Guard Army that's completely mobile in Chimeras and Valks so there's no need for a CCS to sit around and give orders. However, if you're running gunline or powerblob Guard, then that CCS becomes much more valuable for the orders it can give rather than just its value in points. In such a situation, I'd say that Bastonne is a decent way of picking off nasty backfield tanks, arty or infantry.