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would the maps of the lociust tunnels conveniently in Marcus's dads house in GOW1 be DEM? IIRC it's not mentioned up until that point and not explained in the first game why they were there, but they still use them to great effect.
Da Boss wrote:Generally, Doctor Who is pretty bad for the Deus Ex Machina superscience endings.
Especially the season enders, but it happens in other episodes too.
There was a bloody battle in which the americans killed the crew of a tiger tank, however all of the americans who swarmed the tank were gunned down. After that point the battle is going down hill for the americans and they are pushed back to a bridge that they must hold or the germans could get through.
Then this happens.
Suddenly the P-51s come along and the battle is won, huzzah!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/23 04:48:39
Destrado wrote:I must shamefully admit I never watched Saving Private Ryan, but...
...wouldn't Tom Hanks' character have to survive for it to really be a DEM? Not that I could properly contextualize the scene...
The end of A.I. - I still think it should've ended when he meets the Blue Fairy, none of that "alien" crap.
Not really.
There were a couple of brothers who joined the american army during WW2, in the beginning one of the brothers is killed in the D-Day landing and a story comes in saying that there is only one brother left alive. A group of soldiers is told to get the last living brother to bring him home safely. After a long while they find him in a town with a few other soldiers who are in charge of holding a random bridge in Europe. Tom Hanks and his men are supposed to get Pvt. Ryan out of there, but Ryan won't leave because he wants to fulfill his duties.
At that point the tanks come in a long with a ton of germans. The fight starts out well for the americans, but turns bad incredibly fast. They are pushed back to the bridge that they were supposed to hold(the bridge that Tom Hanks dies on) and Tom Hanks makes a last stand seeing as though all is lost. All of a sudden the tiger that is about to run Tom Hanks over explodes and P-51s start bombing the germans who decide that two P-51s are scary enough to cause them to run away even though they were winning the battle.
Youtube has the final battle split into 3 parts if you're interested.
I'm probably going to watch the movie. I've got a list of about a 100th warmovies to see, from Apocalypse Now and Thin Red Line to Clint Eastwood's Flags/letters. But the premise of Saving Pvt. Ryan is what's kept me from watching it, because a lot of guys are killed... to get a guy home, from what it looks like.
anonymous @ best Warhammer Miniature wrote:i vote the choas dwarf lord as they are the greatest dwarfs n should get there own codex
Its more like a lot of people are killed because the guy they are trying to get home doesn't want to leave before the battle to be honest. Most of the people who go with Tom Hanks don't die until the last battle and the only reason why they are there is because Ryan feels obligated to stay and help defend the bridge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/23 05:38:12
Har, I thought they were dying long before they even got to him...
Well, I still might give the movie a look. The same guys who did the movie also did Band of Brothers, right? I've been wanting to get that for ages.
anonymous @ best Warhammer Miniature wrote:i vote the choas dwarf lord as they are the greatest dwarfs n should get there own codex
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
A number of P51s were built with four, British 20mm Hispani-Suiza cannons in case the 0.5-inch MG was inadequate.
Four Hispano-Suizas would have made a big mess of the roof armour on any tank in WW2, that's why the British used Typhoons and Tempests for ground attack.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know how the plane is depicted.
True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
Now I wont nitpick about them using a bubble canopy P-51D in the movie even though that model was not available yet. It could have been any plane really. I just don't see any craft making an accurate attack run in the middle of a close assault. To me that run counts as a DEM.
Most any G.I. that was within spitting distance of the 88mm barrel of a hostile tiger was not going to be saved, and certainly not by a passing P-51.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/23 10:57:05
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
How did the bomb land so far *ahead* of the plane? The Tiger explodes and it takes a good second or so for the plane to appear from the smoke above the destroyed tank. Do bombs now speed up to land ahead of aircraft when dropped? Surely the plane should at least be over the tank when it explodes or even have passed over Tom Hanks. :p
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
A number of P51s were built with four, British 20mm Hispani-Suiza cannons in case the 0.5-inch MG was inadequate.
Four Hispano-Suizas would have made a big mess of the roof armour on any tank in WW2, that's why the British used Typhoons and Tempests for ground attack.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know how the plane is depicted.
True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
Now I wont nitpick about them using a bubble canopy P-51D in the movie even though that model was not available yet. It could have been any plane really. I just don't see any craft making an accurate attack run in the middle of a close assault. To me that run counts as a DEM.
Most any G.I. that was within spitting distance of the 88mm barrel of a hostile tiger was not going to be saved, and certainly not by a passing P-51.
I don't think it's too far to assume that those "less than 300 rare" P-51As, modified for ground support, were likely tasked to...y'know, ground support operations for the largest operation of the European theater.
The most likely explanation is that the aircraft were not computer generated, and there happen to be more P51s and replica, small scale models of them still operational than other WW2 types like the Tempest, so this type was the most easily available for the scene.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having now watched the scene, it is clear to me that any firing from the P51 would probably have hit Tom Hanks's character as well as the tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/23 11:45:04
Andrew1975 wrote:So he shoots his jaw and that breaks tylers hold......ok.....wait what? Read the book, it's much better.
Nah, the ending to the book makes the mistake of attempting a far too literal conclusion to the story's religious themes. The film had a far better ending, and Chuck Palahnuik agrees with this, famously saying the film had a much superior ending.
All these endings are ridiculous and insulting. Hollywood fairy tale crap.
That doesn't make it a deus ex machina.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Destrado wrote:The end of A.I. - I still think it should've ended when he meets the Blue Fairy, none of that "alien" crap.
They weren't aliens, they were highly advanced robots looking for the long dead race that had created them - mankind. Ending with the blue fairy would have left the films themes almost entirely incoherent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andrew1975 wrote:True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
So you appear to have no problem with the incredibly incompetent German assault that saw them lose multiples tanks and countless troops assaulting a position defended by a handful of lightly armed paratroopers, but you have a problem that the film used the wrong plane in a tank hunting role. Okay.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/23 12:24:21
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Andrew1975 wrote:True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
So you appear to have no problem with the incredibly incompetent German assault that saw them lose multiples tanks and countless troops assaulting a position defended by a handful of lightly armed paratroopers, but you have a problem that the film used the wrong plane in a tank hunting role. Okay.
Oh no, don't get me wrong that whole last battle was ridiculous and unrealistic in almost every way conceivable! You could write whole books on that. Just talking about the DEM.
By exceptionally rare, I mean yes they were produced but were not in service for very long once they discovered the Merlin engine. So yes they were produced, no they were not in use during the time, i don't think there is record of the Mustang getting tank kills anytime during D-day. P-47 was used at this point. But Spielberg believes that mustangs were the greatest plane in any role.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Clue.
Nobody has any idea who is the killer, Then the "butler" recounts the murders in order to eventually point the finger at.... well that depends on which ending you get.... Though the ultimate one has him admitting to not only being the killer, but "Mr. Body" as well.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
Andrew1975 wrote:Oh no, don't get me wrong that whole last battle was ridiculous and unrealistic in almost every way conceivable! You could write whole books on that. Just talking about the DEM.
Ah, well that's okay then.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote:
They weren't aliens, they were highly advanced robots looking for the long dead race that had created them - mankind. Ending with the blue fairy would have left the films themes almost entirely incoherent.
Not sure what you mean by themes. But the robots finding him, and granting him "a wish"... Sounds a bit too far-fetched.
On the topic of Mass Effect 1 - can't recall correctly, but I thought that Saren dying made little or no impact. The reaper wasn't invincible, and the combined armada took it down. Though it could also have been that a part of the reaper's "conscience" took over Saren.
Then it got confused when he didn't respond to pings.
anonymous @ best Warhammer Miniature wrote:i vote the choas dwarf lord as they are the greatest dwarfs n should get there own codex
Destrado wrote:Not sure what you mean by themes. But the robots finding him, and granting him "a wish"... Sounds a bit too far-fetched.
The film asks if a robot can be programmed to love. It answers this question with an emphatic 'no' - they can be programmed to need another person, but this is a shallow mimic of love. Sure, that mimickry is a great advance for robots and by giving a robot a need it has spurred it into creativity of it's own, but David's anxious need for his mother is clearly not love. Had the film ended with the blue fairy then it would have been a well made but ultimately very simple movie.
Instead, we are given a final act, and presented with robots 2,000 years later, here these beings show nothing but concern for David's feelings, and simply want him to be happy. They are capable of love, and so the film answers a different question, 'can a robot love' and the answer is certainly 'yes'. It then finishes with David recieving the love from his mother he had never received before, and tells us that David then began to dream. In being loved, even for one day, David became capable of love. Suddenly we have a fascinating idea, that robots could never be programmed to love, but will certainly have the capacity to develop it of their own accord.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/24 03:59:43
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Despite all that, it ending with his power-levels drained and using that last time to repeat the memories he had of his mother would've had an interesting effect, too, without using that DEM of sorts.
But thanks for clearing it, it does bring the movie's ending into another perspective.
anonymous @ best Warhammer Miniature wrote:i vote the choas dwarf lord as they are the greatest dwarfs n should get there own codex
Thanks for explaining A.I. I'm suddenly fine with the ending.
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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
Destrado wrote:Interesting, I didn't think about it that way.
Despite all that, it ending with his power-levels drained and using that last time to repeat the memories he had of his mother would've had an interesting effect, too, without using that DEM of sorts.
It would have been a very different movie, though.
But thanks for clearing it, it does bring the movie's ending into another perspective.
Happy to have offered another way of seeing the movie.
malfred wrote:Thanks for explaining A.I. I'm suddenly fine with the ending.
Fafnir wrote:It does go on a bit too long though.
True, and the thing about space time leaving a pattern so you could recreate a person for one day was, well, pretty silly.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
•The shinpu (in English, "Divine Wind", also known as "kami kaze") were a set of typhoons in the years 1274 and 1281 which prevented Mongol invasions of Japan.
Which is a Deus Ex Machina... how? IIRC, they set sail during typhoon SEASON both times, so it's not exactly a big surprise.
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
