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IIRC the P-51 depicted was a D variant which afaik never had the 20mm
Some Mustangs had triple barrel "bazooka" type rocket launchers for ground attack.

Tiffies with rockets to take out a Tiger.

Propably Terminator 3.

End of Terminator2:We stopped Judgement Day,WOOT.
3rd Movie:NO YOU DIDN'T,EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IS A LIE!!!

Albatross wrote:World War II - America joins the war.

HA HA HA HA HA HA! BWA HA HA HA!

The appearance of air support, no matter how unlikely, still wouldn't be deus ex machina. Not unless the air support was always available but was unusued.

The characters in Saving Private Ryn held off long enough for air support to arrive, which makes their actions meaningful and heroic. If they had buggered out, the air support wouldn't help hold the bridge.

Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.

The worst example of DEM in a movie is in the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy arrives, and Glinda tells her to go the Wizard, who sends her to kill the Wicked Witch of the West, who welches on his promise. Who shows up to tell Dorothy how to get home? Glinda! Who could have sent her home in the first reel. She even says it: "you had the power all along."

That, my friend, is Deus Ex Machina.

In the liberation of Europe the allies had a system of forward aircontrollers, so that air support caould be called up quickly. (Known as Taxi Ranks)

The problem with Saving Private Ryan is that no one calls up air support iirc
Aircraft were often allowed to attack targets of opportunity but as mentioned, a single P-51 with 6x.50 cal Browninings ain't gonna do squit to a Tiger.

I take the point you are making Polonius but it is not so much the presence of the Mustang, but what it does to help the plot so I reckon it is as much a Deus Ex Machina as every episode of Bleach or Naruto. There is always one of the gang beaten, about to be put to trhe sword, the baddy swings weapon, casts spell of doom...
but inevitably someone turns up in the nick of time.

Ok, you're not understanding DEM then. Showing up in the nick of time to save the day is not Deus Ex Machina. Showing up in the nick of time, when you were capable of doing so the entire time, is DEM.

The mustang helped with exactly one problem: the Tiger tank. The heros of SPR could not have done everything they did, even if the mustang had showed up at the beginning. They still stormed a beach, took out a machine gun nest, and held off the assault without aid. More importantly, the Mustang couldn't have done those other things.

DEM occurs when something appears to solve the central or all of the problems in the plot, and makes the actions of the heros more or less redundant.

Polonius wrote:Ok, you're not understanding DEM then. Showing up in the nick of time to save the day is not Deus Ex Machina. Showing up in the nick of time, when you were capable of doing so the entire time, is DEM.

The mustang helped with exactly one problem: the Tiger tank. The heros of SPR could not have done everything they did, even if the mustang had showed up at the beginning. They still stormed a beach, took out a machine gun nest, and held off the assault without aid. More importantly, the Mustang couldn't have done those other things.

DEM occurs when something appears to solve the central or all of the problems in the plot, and makes the actions of the heros more or less redundant.

Doesn't it have to be a hitherto un-introduced character to truly qualify, though? That would invalidate the 'Wizard of Oz' example. I'm just thinking aloud here, btw.

Amaya wrote:Babylon 5

Spoiler:

Sheridan falls to his death at Z'ha'dum only to be saved by The First One dwelling there that was never mentioned previously in the series.

No one knew it was lurking there, it's the most powerful and ancient thing there is and therefore not even the Vorlons had a clue...

gorgon wrote:Can't believe no one's mentioned ST:TNG. There's about 5 seasons worth of of DEM.

Yeah, every other episode involved altering the deflector dish to spew some random thing at some random thing and win. Federation ships should just be made of hundreds of Datas and hard light holograms on defiant ships covered in deflector dishes, creating self replicating mines.

Da Boss wrote:Generally, Doctor Who is pretty bad for the Deus Ex Machina superscience endings.
Especially the season enders, but it happens in other episodes too.

True, tardis can suddenly do this random thing, sonic screwdriver can suddenly do that random thing... also the Dr headsmacking himself and saying 'but of course, I remember what this is!' 5 mins from the end of the episode and winning... Lets hope far less of this with the passing of RTD.

gorgon wrote:Can't believe no one's mentioned ST:TNG. There's about 5 seasons worth of of DEM.

Voyager was even worse .

Most video games. Everyone is dying and then the character you play comes along and kicks butt where no one else could.

Fallout 3 & New Vegas
Resident Evils
Dead Space
etc. etc.

I wont lie, the endings of Fallout 3 pissed me off a bit.

A deus ex machina (Latin for "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

A Mustang shooting up a Tiger Tank to get the heroes out of a tight scrape is wholly implausible.

Bleach characters by this definition may not be appropriate.
However the machanism is still too frequently used to change a situation and often in the context of the stoty arc is imho Deus Ex Mechina
Your mileage may vary Polonius but your comment as to what I don't understand is wide of the mark..

Jurassic Park: Our heroes have been fleeing the evil raptors for a good portion of the film. But, they've ended up trapped and surrounded by the raptors in a large open space with no where else to hide. One of the raptors dives in for the kill when suddenly, a T-Rex appears and snatches it out of mid-air, allowing our heroes a distraction for them to flee. This is the same T-Rex that appeared earlier and you could hear coming from a mile away. But, it apparently was a ninja and managed to sneak in to save the day.

War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:A Mustang shooting up a Tiger Tank to get the heroes out of a tight scrape is wholly implausible.

I guess I feel that a little suspension of disbelief. If you replace "mustang" with "airplane" and Tiger with "tank", that's actually not that contrived. Implausibility is different, as hardly any action sequence is realisitically plausible. I think DEM I think highly contrived, but I don't consider air support showing up to deal with a fairly powerful enemy tank overly contrived.

Your mileage may vary Polonius but your comment as to what I don't understand is wide of the mark..

I think you're focusing more on the realism side of things, as opposed to the story telling and plot creation side of things. DEM is a sign of weak plot. The air support was unrealistice, but it's not a short cut through the plot. The heroes succeeded as far as they did through effort, which slowed down the assault long enough to allow the air support to arrive. I suppose it's a pretty minor example, but it'd certainly not call an event like :Air support arriving" all that unexpected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:Jurassic Park: Our heroes have been fleeing the evil raptors for a good portion of the film. But, they've ended up trapped and surrounded by the raptors in a large open space with no where else to hide. One of the raptors dives in for the kill when suddenly, a T-Rex appears and snatches it out of mid-air, allowing our heroes a distraction for them to flee. This is the same T-Rex that appeared earlier and you could hear coming from a mile away. But, it apparently was a ninja and managed to sneak in to save the day.

I'll give you this one. OTOH, You could hear the T-rex previously when in a quiet car, not when fighting for your life in a building. It's a little more plausible when you realize that the heroes probably wouldn't have noticed it either. Anyway, that's more a question of a plot hole that DEM (the sillent approach). As a reader of TV tropes, I'd consider it more of a Heel/Face turn than a DEM, but it's still pretty out of nowhere.

War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.

This is a classic DEM, but it's intentional. The point of the story is to show how helpless humanity would be against the Martians, and how only fate could save us. (In many ways similar to the Foundation series, in which nothing happens due to heroic action.)

That said, keep in mind that germ theory was relatively new when WotW was published. Also, mars has an extremely thin atmosphere, so the Martians may not have thought that virii could be transmitted by air. Yeah, it's weak, but the martians lack of germ theory knowledge is the least of the factual troubles with that story.

Was watching iron man the other day and the way the Arc reactor seems to wholly concentrate on Obidiah Stane is a bit silly. Iron man 2's 'super team-up power' was already set up earlier in the film so was less of a silly ending. Halo 3: Blowing up 'some' of the flood on the Ark somehow wiping out a galactic plague was very stupid.

Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?

Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder.
A resistance??...Inconceivable!!

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?

He'd already demonstrated himself to be strong, skilled, and in the confrontation with the Sicilian, by poisoning both cups with a poison he _knew_ he was immune to, devious.

An actual DEM would have been if Wesley had no idea the cup was poisoned, but by sheer coincidence happened to be completely immune to poison, an ability never hinted at previously. Another example could be the heroes cornered by Prince Humperdink and his guards, about to be messily killed, when suddenly the REAL Dread Pirate Roberts shows up and saves the day (the heroes' plight being suddenly resolved by a character with no real mention or development at any point prior).

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?

That would be bad if it solved the entire plot of the theme. However, it's early on, and he did purpose that game because he knew, whatever the outcome, he would survive.

Underhanded, but not inconceivable. He did take the mantle of the Dread Pirate Roberts, probably in a dangerous crew. I don't see it as DEM, unlike the Jurassic Park one.

Ah fair enough.

Not really any others I can think of, the only one I knew for certain has already been mentioned.

Some folks say the end of Signs, but I'm not even sure that is, as he's been having the visions through the movie.

[quote=GrakmarWar of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.

Tim the Biovore wrote:[quote=GrakmarWar of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.

They died because more than a few of the people they ate would've had a virus.

Yeah they heard our 'pushing up the daisies' saying and totally misunderstood it.

I took a ride in the way back machine for this one.

"Form blazing sword!"

So here is the synopsis of 99% of Voltron episodes. Robeast shows up, beats up voltron for about 10 minutes. When all looks lost they form the blazing sword. Cut scene to blazing sword being formed, cut scene to blazing sword slicing through up to this point invulnerable robeast. FIGHT OVER.

I mean why not just form the blazing sword to begin with!

More of a plot crutch/hole than a DEM.....but come on.

Andrew1975 wrote:I took a ride in the way back machine for this one.

"Form blazing sword!"

So here is the synopsis of 99% of Voltron episodes. Robeast shows up, beats up voltron for about 10 minutes. When all looks lost they form the blazing sword. Cut scene to blazing sword being formed, cut scene to blazing sword slicing through up to this point invulnerable robeast. FIGHT OVER.

I mean why not just form the blazing sword to begin with!

More of a plot crutch/hole than a DEM.....but come on.

Welcome to every sentai-based series ever, animated and live-action.

Every seen any film based off of the works of William Shakespeare? He's the progenitor. Ie; convenient letters appear from nowhere to tie up all those little loose ends and plotholes, whilst creating oh so many more. ^^

Destrado wrote:can't recall correctly, but I thought that Saren dying made little or no impact. The reaper wasn't invincible, and the combined armada took it down. Though it could also have been that a part of the reaper's "conscience" took over Saren.

Then it got confused when he didn't respond to pings.

ERROR 404: Saren not found

Polonius wrote:Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.

According to TV Tropes though it's *never* mentioned prior to the reveal. It's only Chekhov's gun if it was set up earlier to be used later. Seeing as this gun wasn't hung on the wall earlier on it is just pulled out of nowhere for the 'reveal'.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Amaya wrote:Babylon 5

Spoiler:

Sheridan falls to his death at Z'ha'dum only to be saved by The First One dwelling there that was never mentioned previously in the series.

Polonius wrote:The appearance of air support, no matter how unlikely, still wouldn't be deus ex machina. Not unless the air support was always available but was unusued.


Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.


That, my friend, is Deus Ex Machina.

His war wound is literally never mentioned before hand.

Grakmar wrote:

War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.

Good example

Oh yes of course, the ending of the "Day of the Triffids" 1960s film in which very late in the day it turns out that sea water kills them, and thus the world was saved! Unlike the book then, where the Triffids take over the world.