Do you think Squats should be reintroduced to 40k? --POLL--

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**shealyr**

No, no, no, no, and no.

Eggs with legs?

no.

Eggs with legs... in space? Even worse.

**Hans Chung-Otterson**

BuFFo wrote:

All GW had to do was NOT release Tau (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets)

Wow. Oriental? Srsly? I'd say Tau appeal to fans of a certain kind of mechanime aesthetic, but the "oriental" market as a whole? Bit of a stretch.

**BuFFo**

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:
BuFFo wrote:

All GW had to do was NOT release Tau (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets)

Wow. Oriental? Srsly? I'd say Tau appeal to fans of a certain kind of mechanime aesthetic, but the "oriental" market as a whole? Bit of a stretch.

Yeah, at that time GW was beginning to expand into that part of the world, setting up shops. This is just purely conjecture and I have no facts, but Tau sure weren't created for those Canadian Lumberjacks who want to dive into the hobby.

And yeah, Anime/Manga, the entire Tau art style, does come from mainly the Japanese. It sure didn't come from Brooklyn, NY. I hope I really don't have to convince you of this?

- edit -

Maybe the reason why I love the Squats so much is because I am a short man...

Hmmmm, the mystery deepens!

**Ascalam**

I'd like to see them back, but they'd need a SERIOUS rework and coolness up

On a similar note does anyone remember the turkish-looking Big-Hat chaos dwarves

**BuFFo**

Ascalam wrote:I'd like to see them back, but they'd need a SERIOUS rework and coolness up

On a similar note does anyone remember the turkish-looking Big-Hat chaos dwarves

Well, like all the armies that were around in the late 80s and early 90s, I believe the Squat would get a complete overhaul to fit into the modern gaming idea of what they should look like.

If you go to Bartertown.com and see the fantasy section, people sell Chaos Dwarves all the time.

It is a fun army.

**kizzdougs**

No!! Never!!

**Emperors Faithful**

Walrus wrote:I want them back because they are a joke. 40k has turned grimstupid and we need a nice kick back to the old days.

Says the poster using an avatar from that-very-grim-not-funny-moment-of-human-Eldar-relations.

**Kanluwen**

BuFFo wrote:I voted yes. I own Squats. It was my first army when I was roughly 8 or 9 years old.

I shake my head at some of the reasons people don't like Squats. Let me address them;

1) Squats didn't sell well.

Incorrect. As a matter of fact, Squats sold very well. Squats were a very popular army while they existed. Who was the chap who posted about Squats some years ago as to why they were dropped? Was it Gav or Andy? I forget. I am sure some of you even have the link to that post, so I am not just making this up. I hope someone posts the link here too

He said that Squats sold very well, and people liked them. The reason why Squats were discontinued was for a single main reason; the Development team didn't know where to go with the Squats in terms of Fluff and Feel. Basically, the Design Team at the time was just LAZY and didn't feel like redesigning the Squats.

Squats were dropped because at the time, GW just didn't care.

Prove that "Squats sold very well".
Chambers stated at Games Day 2002 that the biggest reason for dropping Squats, yes, was that the development team didn't know where to go with the Squats in terms of their fluff and the vibe the army gave off.

The other was that they had pisspoor sales in 40k itself, but sold well in Epic.

2) Squats are a joke army.

Incorrect. Squats came out at a time when the ENTIRE 40k Universe was a late 80's sci-fantasy play on humor and jokes. Should I even list the various character names GW gave to ALL the races? I am sure you all can name 20 of them right off the bat. I mean, FFS, many of you still play with Margret Thatcher leading your Orks to war.

What about;

Space Clowns
Space Hobbits
Space Elfs
Space Ogres
Space Lizardmen
Space Undead
Space Orcs

Anyone own any Goff Rocker models? How about Slaneesh guitar wielding models? Anyone even play Gorkamorka? If anything Squats were one of the more SERIOUS of the armies in their fluff. Orks were the real joke army, and guess what? They stayed around.

Space Clowns... Really....

Except a lot of those things have been altered so they're not just "Space XXXX". Orks are no longer just Orcs in space with guns or silly names, just like Ogryn are no longer just Space Ogres, etc.

That is one of the biggest reasons Squats were dropped. They couldn't come up with a way to make them unique without just riffing off "Dwarves in Spaaaaace!"

3) Squats won't fit into the dynamic of the game.

Incorrect. Marines have, what, 6 Armies, all essentially the same? 6 Armies that could easily just be shoved into one Codex. Hell, Chaos Space Marine Legions are more varied than Space Marines, and CSM have always been crammed into one book, but this subject is for another debate.

Because Chaos Space Marines have always been "crammed" into one book? So Slave of Chaos, Realm of Chaos, etc were all "one book"?
The CSM codex was always one of the fairly larger ones, comparatively. It didn't actually suffer until they tried to simplify things down with the last incarnation, and even then Chaos came out better than the friggin' Dark Angels did.

And no. Those "6 armies that are essentially all the same"? They're not. Space Wolves are significantly different than Blood Angels, who are significantly different to the Dark Angels who are significantly different to the Black Templars who are waaaay out there from the standard Codex Marines.

So how do you propose to make Squats different to Imperial Guard? Or Orks? Or Tau? Or Space Marines?

Because Squats had elements of every army within, but never anything to make them worth actually investing in outside of pleasing a few dozen hardcore fans.

All GW had to do was NOT release Tau (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets) and just release Squats/Demiurge instead. Squats could play just like the Tau and no one would have noticed.

One of the dumbest(and most racist, frankly) statements I've ever heard on this board.
Without the Tau, there would be no Demiurg. And even with the release of the Tau...the oriental markets didn't just open up and start pouring money into GW's coffers. I'm willing to bet if you went and did a survey of players in GW Asia, you wouldn't find any difference in the armies fielded compared to here in the US or over in the UK/Europe.

Anyway, the first point I made is fact. If you read Gavs/Andys post, that spells it out plainly why they were dropped. The second point is my opinion, but people tend to forget the tongue in cheek humor the ENTIRE game had for its first two editions. My third point is just my opinion, but saying that Squats cannot find a spot in the 40k universe play style is essentially saying there can never be a new army introduced into the game.

Gav/Andy have never posted on Dakka or anywhere else about Squats. They didn't like being dragged into discussing it, because of all the twits at Games Days who'd harangue them about any posting they made. That is a statement they repeated, quite often, at Games Days.

Yes I know about release schedules sucking the more armies there are, but blame that on Marines. The release schedule reason is the only one I can agree with NOT adding Squats back into the game.

Why blame "that on Marines"? Marines aren't sucking up the model development time that is the real killer for Codex release schedules. They're pretty much set and don't need an entire model range overhaul any time they've been redone.

**helgrenze**

Kanluwen wrote:[Except a lot of those things have been altered so they're not just "Space XXXX". Orks are no longer just Orcs in space with guns or silly names, just like Ogryn are no longer just Space Ogres, etc.

That is one of the biggest reasons Squats were dropped. They couldn't come up with a way to make them unique without just riffing off "Dwarves in Spaaaaace!"

Which is kind of the point here.... Those races were "developed" into what they are...
BUT, A space "Ogryn" is still an Ogre in Space
An "Ork" is still an Orc in Space
"Gretchen" are still Goblins in Space
"Ratlings" are still Hobbits in Space
Space Marines equate with Knights in Space, especially Templars.
I could list how nearly every fantasy race is represented in 40K....

The exceptions are there are no Lizardmen in 40K and nothing like Nids in Fantasy.... as well as not having "Dwarves in Space".

One bit of fluff from the Squats that could have been latched onto for developement is a quote... "Your people do well at war because they look at it like a religion. Mine do well at war because we treat it like a business... its all just a matter of perspective."

**Kanluwen**

You mean like Blood Axes and Ork Freebooters did?

**Melchiour**

More choice is always a plus.

**Acardia**

The only way I can see them being reintroduced is as a member of the Tau empire after a lost surviving sect was found. They could bring 1-2 unit slots a a Tau list, maybe infantry T4 FNP, S&P or something. and maybe a bike or unit, (would prefer Knarloc riders though)

**cross_revert**

I wouldn't mind them being part of the IG, but no their own codex. Honestly, I'd rather see Kroot Mercs come back myself.

**Ugly Green Trog**

In my mind GW cant keep the codices they have up to date with decent enough regularity (BA, DE and soon to be Demonhunters have been without true dexes since 3rd, while Witch hunters, DA, Tau and Necrons are in need of a revamp) at most they seem to put out 2-3 dexes a year (not including WHFB) so logic demands that not all of those 4 will be done in the next 2 years especially as there will prob be a bew Marines dex before then. Add another race into the mix and your looking at increasing the cycle into even more of an eliptical orbit, with the more popular races being done every 2-3 years and the slightly more niche/obscure ones having to wait 6+ I think a real concerted effort needs to be made to catch all dexes up before 6th ed comes out.

**Ailaros**

Ugly Green Trog wrote:In my mind GW cant keep the codices they have up to date with decent enough regularity

This is my biggest reason. There are already too many armies for GW to keep up with, adding yet another army that will delay the release of more models that still haven't been created for codecies that are years old, and even further delaying the updating of new codecies would be a pretty bad move.

**Zarynterk**

BuFFo wrote: (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets)

FYI Oriental is a kind of rug, not a race...

**Lonecoon**

cross_revert wrote:I wouldn't mind them being part of the IG, but no their own codex. Honestly, I'd rather see Kroot Mercs come back myself.

I'd be nice to see a mercenary codex with units able to be taken by any army as elites choices. Toss the squats in there along with Kroots, Zoats, and any other off the wall units.

**The_Savior**

Zarynterk wrote:
BuFFo wrote: (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets)

FYI Oriental is a kind of rug, not a race...

The rug people

**BluntmanDC**

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, at that time GW was beginning to expand into that part of the world, setting up shops. This is just purely conjecture and I have no facts, but Tau sure weren't created for those Canadian Lumberjacks who want to dive into the hobby.

And yeah, Anime/Manga, the entire Tau art style, does come from mainly the Japanese. It sure didn't come from Brooklyn, NY. I hope I really don't have to convince you of this?

And we all know that space wolves were created for the roaming vikings, dark eldar were made for sex offenders, the tyranids were designed for US's morbidly obese and the rough riders were released to up central asian sales.

So you have somehow missed popular culture, manga/anime/gundam have been very popular outside of 'the oriental market' (its actually called the east asian market) in one of GW's main target markets, 'nerdy' males.

I would also say that as New York city is a hub of world culture that manga/anime/gundam would actually have alot of fans there, which could spill over into Brooklyn.

**Exopheric**

Demiurg are sort of like Squats, maybe even an offshoot. They or some of their equipment might turn up when the Tau get renewed.

But for my money, there'd be a lot more interest among the fanbase in a Mechanicus army when it comes to developing an army that relies on heavy machinery.

...so that's a no.

**Kanluwen**

No, Demiurg are nothing like Squats outside of being a clan-centric dimunitive humanoid race.

**Exopheric**

Kanluwen wrote:No, Demiurg are nothing like Squats outside of being a clan-centric dimunitive humanoid race.

Which is about as close as it should ever get, then.

**Son_Of _Deddog**

No..Even though I love them, no. The only real way I can see Squats sucessfully returning is as some soert of specialist IG unit, or as a Tau ally (ie Demiurge) or something.

Just what I think..

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

I've always felt the whole 'they sold poorly' reason for dropping them was a bit harsh myself.

Their model range was awful at the time they got dropped, and they'd had no new imput in ages.

The actual backstory wasn't too bad, no worse than Eldar or Orks at the time.

Had they recieved an actual dedicated book (they never had one, only lists in the old combo books.) Then perhaps they would be sitting somewhere much happier right now.

I certainly think at the very least GW should have made them a heavy unit option for the Imperial Guard.

Which would have given them an actual path to return with their own army at some point should someone at GW decide to give them another go.

Instead they gave themselves no options, and took away an army which with a lbit of effort could have been something great.

As an Ork player I do mourn with a certain loss for our bearded brethren. I want to stomp their stunty faces in. Robbed I have of my victory, robbed by a pen stroke at GW HQ.

Demiurg is a possibility I suppose, but I still doubt GW will ever do anything with them anyways.

**BuFFo**

Kanluwen wrote: Random stuff with no proof

Here you go. I didn't find the original post, but this is a direct copy posted by a rather authoritive person some years ago.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779012&postcount=1

Squats were dropped because the Studio didn't give a crap.

Zarynterk wrote:
BuFFo wrote: (I know it was released to please the Oriental Markets)

FYI Oriental is a kind of rug, not a race...

Orient describes anything that comes from the 'far east' from a European perspective, be it people or things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient

**Kanluwen**

I like how that posting pretty much confirmed everything I said and did nothing but prove my point. Neat!

And just for posterity, it was Jervis Johnson who made the post not Andy Chambers or Gav Thorpe.

Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BuFFo wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: Random stuff with no proof

Here you go. I didn't find the original post, but this is a direct copy posted by a rather authoritive person some years ago.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779012&postcount=1

Squats were dropped because the Studio didn't give a crap.

Uh, do you even read things before you post them?

Jervis wrote:No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

That doesn't sound to me like "didn't give a crap", or as you posted earlier with such emphasis "The Design Studio was LAZY!". It sounds like they didn't know what the feth to do with the mess they'd already made.

Jervis wrote:Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

That also reinforces the point I made about them doing fantastic in Epic; which is the only place I ever saw Squats actually being played.

Plus it was highly indicative of the disconnect that was going on between 40k and Epic for Squats. They just didn't work the way the design studio had tried to envision them.

Jervis wrote:In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

Again...proves my point. They were unhappy with how it had turned out. Sucks, but it happens. Get over it.

**KingCracker**

Squats are the prefect example to GW why 40k needs to be 40k, and NOT fantasy in space.

Dwarfs are fine in a fantasy, hey this guy looks like Gimli HURRAY kind of way. But fantasy is fantasy. 40K is future combat space battles.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Nope, the number of people who go on and on about how great they were has turned me off them completely.

**helgrenze**

KingCracker wrote:Squats are the prefect example to GW why 40k needs to be 40k, and NOT fantasy in space.

Dwarfs are fine in a fantasy, hey this guy looks like Gimli HURRAY kind of way. But fantasy is fantasy. 40K is future combat space battles.

Which is why GW should also drop:
"Space Elves"
"Dark Space Elves"
"Space Orcs"
"Space Ogres"
"Space Halflings"
"Space Vikings"
"Space Undead"
"Space Vampires"

Wanna talk some more about "Fantasy in Space?"

**Kilkrazy**

KingCracker wrote:Squats are the prefect example to GW why 40k needs to be 40k, and NOT fantasy in space.

Dwarfs are fine in a fantasy, hey this guy looks like Gimli HURRAY kind of way. But fantasy is fantasy. 40K is future combat space battles.

Future bash people with space swords battles, rather.

Orks, space elves, humans, hobbits, ogres, why not dwarves?