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As quoted, Squats neither sold poorly or sold spectacularly.

"First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K."

I think they were a victim of GW wanting to distance 40k further from Fantasy. It had been suggested that the fantasy world was inside the eye of terror, but that is never mentioned today. Many things in 40k were just Space Elves, Space Orks and Space Dwarves, something was going to lose out when making 40k more unique.

Which might seem all very noble but the thing that undermines this is the way the Dark Eldar are the complete reverse of this. After scrapping the Squats for being 'Space Dwarves' they cooked up the Space Dark Elves for 3rd ed. And the Necrons, or Space Undead, were created after the demise of the Squats too.

helgrenze wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Squats are the prefect example to GW why 40k needs to be 40k, and NOT fantasy in space.

Dwarfs are fine in a fantasy, hey this guy looks like Gimli HURRAY kind of way. But fantasy is fantasy. 40K is future combat space battles.

Which is why GW should also drop:
"Space Elves"
"Dark Space Elves"
"Space Orcs"
"Space Ogres"
"Space Halflings"
"Space Vikings"
"Space Undead"
"Space Vampires"

Wanna talk some more about "Fantasy in Space?"

Wanna actually provide some evidence for that, rather than just putting "Space" in front of an absurdly vague archetype?

Dark Eldar and Eldar both have quite a bit going for them, being the most high technologically based of the races. Do they still have pointy ears and slight builds? Sure. But the technology definitely sets them apart from their fantasy counterparts.

Orks, again, have some differences going for them but not as many as the rest. The whole "Orks thriving on war and growing stronger based on how many battles they've been in" is definitely a GWism though.

Ogryn aren't "space Ogres", but meh. I don't think you're really interested in any debate that doesn't end with you getting Squats, now are you? If Ogryn were simply dumb brutes who lived in tribes and raided alongside Orks...you'd have a point. The fact that Ogryn are some of the Imperium's most devout(if not brightest) servants very definitely sets them apart there from their fantasy counterparts. Then the whole "they're offshoots of human evolution, usually found on worlds with especially difficult conditions and are an encouraged abhuman mutation" is another thing(as in almost every single Fantasy setting, Ogres are offshoots of Giantkin or Orc species) setting them apart from their generic Fantasy counterparts.

Ratlings have the same thing going on for them as Ogryn; they retain a relatively recognizable archetype but twist it to be another "abhuman mutation" like the Ogryn.

"Space Vikings", this one has always amused me. Vikings were pretty much heartless raiders who lived for plunder.
I'm fairly certain that while they do plunder, the Space Wolves would also like to point you at their humanitarian record. You know, the whole "almost taking on the entire bloody Imperium for mindwiping the populace of Armageddon" incident?

"Space Undead" isn't even true for Necrons. Undead are forcibly created by a Necromancer using the reanimated husks of the deceased. Not voluntarily surrendered souls housed within a mechanical husk.

You also lose points for not having said "Space Golems" for that one. Sorry.

And now, "Space Vampires".
Where do I even start with this...
"Vampires" isn't correct terminology for the Blood Angels. They don't drink blood to survive and they can't "spread" their condition to other people. So that's points off right there.
The whole "sacred blood" aspect of the Blood Angels is more akin to Christianity, if anything else. So that's definitely an incorrect stereotype.

I'd agree with Kanluwen here. In the end I think GW realised that they really couldn't do anything to distance Squats from being really, really obvious Space Dwarves. Even the Orks and their culture have been seperated from Fantasy Orcs.

Also, does WHFB even have Vikings?

Though the Flesh Tearers do have stronger reasons to be considered 'vampires' than the Blood Angels.

The Norsca Marauders are pretty much "Vikings...OF CHAOS!".

Kanluwen wrote:The Norsca Marauders are pretty much "Vikings...OF CHAOS!".

Apart from coming from a cold place and being more hairy than usual, I can't see anything that would justify the claim that the Space Wolves are derived from them.

Well, you could make the argument that the Space Wolves recruit from a world that is pretty much run by Vikings, simply because of how Fenris is organized. The world, aside from the parts where the Space Wolves actually operate, is pretty feral and brutally tribalistic.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd agree with Kanluwen here. In the end I think GW realised that they really couldn't do anything to distance Squats from being really, really obvious Space Dwarves. Even the Orks and their culture have been seperated from Fantasy Orcs.

They always used to be in colourful clans with wacky weapons, but come third edition and the popularity of Gorkamorka they started this more feral look with scrap vehicles. If anything they went more feral and closer to fantasy IMO.

Kanluwen wrote:Well, you could make the argument that the Space Wolves recruit from a world that is pretty much run by Vikings, simply because of how Fenris is organized. The world, aside from the parts where the Space Wolves actually operate, is pretty feral and brutally tribalistic.

Seeing how most Space Marine chapters recruit from similarily barbaric worlds, it's makes their comparison to 'Empire Knights' hold even less weight.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd agree with Kanluwen here. In the end I think GW realised that they really couldn't do anything to distance Squats from being really, really obvious Space Dwarves. Even the Orks and their culture have been seperated from Fantasy Orcs.

They always used to be in colourful clans with wacky weapons, but come third edition and the popularity of Gorkamorka they started this more feral look with scrap vehicles. If anything they went more feral and closer to fantasy IMO.

Well, Orcs in WHFB have always struck me as lurking around forests, caves ect. Being a nusiance to convoys, remote villages and not having much else to seperate them from other nasty things that live in the Wilderness. Of course, that all changes when they get motivated, but they never struck me as ever being as great a threat as the Orks in 40k.

Granted I don't play Fantasy.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well, you could make the argument that the Space Wolves recruit from a world that is pretty much run by Vikings, simply because of how Fenris is organized. The world, aside from the parts where the Space Wolves actually operate, is pretty feral and brutally tribalistic.

Seeing how most Space Marine chapters recruit from similarily barbaric worlds, it's makes their comparison to 'Empire Knights' hold even less weight.

Yes and no. Space Wolves are, in themselves, a unique case.

Why?

Because they're loyal to the Emperor...but the Wolves of Fenris also have a pretty tight bond within their Chapter, even if there's some competition between the companies.

Kanluwen wrote:Yes and no. Space Wolves are, in themselves, a unique case.

Why?

Because they're loyal to the Emperor...but the Wolves of Fenris also have a pretty tight bond within their Chapter, even if there's some competition between the companies.

I don't see how this is any different from your typical Space Marine Chapter.

In fact I don't see how it's any different from any human(-ish) military force.

Kanluwen wrote:Ogryn aren't "space Ogres", but meh. I don't think you're really interested in any debate that doesn't end with you getting Squats, now are you? If Ogryn were simply dumb brutes who lived in tribes and raided alongside Orks...you'd have a point. The fact that Ogryn are some of the Imperium's most devout(if not brightest) servants very definitely sets them apart there from their fantasy counterparts. Then the whole "they're offshoots of human evolution, usually found on worlds with especially difficult conditions and are an encouraged abhuman mutation" is another thing(as in almost every single Fantasy setting, Ogres are offshoots of Giantkin or Orc species) setting them apart from their generic Fantasy counterparts.

Ratlings have the same thing going on for them as Ogryn; they retain a relatively recognizable archetype but twist it to be another "abhuman mutation" like the Ogryn.

Ok here is another quote for your library.....

Squats (Homo sapiens rotundus) were short, stocky and tough abhumans. Of all the abhuman types, they most closely resembled humans. Squats were the descendants of humans who colonized the worlds around the galactic core in the far distant past. These worlds are some of the oldest in the galaxy, formed when the laws of physics had yet to be stabilized.

The Squat ancestors were human colonists that reached the mineral rich worlds around the galactic core, during the time of the initial expansion beyond Earth's own solar system, long before the emergence of the Emperor.

Hmm "Homo Sapiens Rotundus", "Abhumans"..... So there is your "twist". Squats were listed as an abhuman archetype, closer in resemblance to humans than ogryns or ratlings.
So the arguement comes back to the design studio not WANTING to work on them. Not that they were not different from "Dwarves in Space" but because the "creative' people were not being ... creative.

40k has moved away from jokes & is more grimdark now. Take a look at older ork models vs. newer ones, or older ork fluff. The squats were mostly like the older orks, in that they were fairly humorous. I mean, look at them! little potbellied guys with cartoony tanks and weapons that dwarf their body! Orks have evolved, as there was a clear direction to take them (fighting always on their mind, just need a leader to unite them in kicking in teef), whereas there was no way to darken the squats.

Also, what niche/role would they fill?

helgrenze wrote:

Squats (Homo sapiens rotundus) were short, stocky and tough abhumans. Of all the abhuman types, they most closely resembled humans. Squats were the descendants of humans who colonized the worlds around the galactic core in the far distant past. These worlds are some of the oldest in the galaxy, formed when the laws of physics had yet to be stabilized.

The Squat ancestors were human colonists that reached the mineral rich worlds around the galactic core, during the time of the initial expansion beyond Earth's own solar system, long before the emergence of the Emperor.

Hmm "Homo Sapiens Rotundus", "Abhumans"..... So there is your "twist". Squats were listed as an abhuman archetype, closer in resemblance to humans than ogryns or ratlings.
So the arguement comes back to the design studio not WANTING to work on them. Not that they were not different from "Dwarves in Space" but because the "creative' people were not being ... creative.

First of all "Homo Sapiens [u]Rotundus[u]"? Jervis is right. What were they thinking?

Second, Kanny was rejecting your arguement that Ogryns = Space Ogres.

helgrenze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Ogryn aren't "space Ogres", but meh. I don't think you're really interested in any debate that doesn't end with you getting Squats, now are you? If Ogryn were simply dumb brutes who lived in tribes and raided alongside Orks...you'd have a point. The fact that Ogryn are some of the Imperium's most devout(if not brightest) servants very definitely sets them apart there from their fantasy counterparts. Then the whole "they're offshoots of human evolution, usually found on worlds with especially difficult conditions and are an encouraged abhuman mutation" is another thing(as in almost every single Fantasy setting, Ogres are offshoots of Giantkin or Orc species) setting them apart from their generic Fantasy counterparts.

Ratlings have the same thing going on for them as Ogryn; they retain a relatively recognizable archetype but twist it to be another "abhuman mutation" like the Ogryn.

Ok here is another quote for your library.....

Squats (Homo sapiens rotundus) were short, stocky and tough abhumans. Of all the abhuman types, they most closely resembled humans. Squats were the descendants of humans who colonized the worlds around the galactic core in the far distant past. These worlds are some of the oldest in the galaxy, formed when the laws of physics had yet to be stabilized.

The Squat ancestors were human colonists that reached the mineral rich worlds around the galactic core, during the time of the initial expansion beyond Earth's own solar system, long before the emergence of the Emperor.

Hmm "Homo Sapiens Rotundus", "Abhumans"..... So there is your "twist". Squats were listed as an abhuman archetype, closer in resemblance to humans than ogryns or ratlings.
So the arguement comes back to the design studio not WANTING to work on them. Not that they were not different from "Dwarves in Space" but because the "creative' people were not being ... creative.

Except even in that huge quote that we got from Jervis Johnson it wasn't "not WANTING to work on them".

It's "not KNOWING HOW to work on them".

They're two very different things. One implies laziness and just saying "screw it", while the other implies confusion and an uncertainty of direction.

Get your phrasing right.

Unfortunately, these points have been argued ad infintum. You are convinced that you are in the right and I, as an actual player of the old Squats lists from the RT days, know that the "creatives" at GW could have "fixed" the Squats, making them more "grim dark".... IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO.... but as the Jervis quote notes,

"Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats." and "(The) 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by. "

Lack of enthusiams...... Lack of inspiration...... these are not "not knowing HOW", these are just what they imply.... lack of "creativity".

But whatever..... you won't convince me they don't belong, and I doubt I could convince you that they do.
Of course Squats WERE one of the original 40k races.... unlike tyranids, dark eldar, necron and tau.

helgrenze wrote:Unfortunately, these points have been argued ad infintum. You are convinced that you are in the right and I, as an actual player of the old Squats lists from the RT days, know that the "creatives" at GW could have "fixed" the Squats, making them more "grim dark".... IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO....

Being heavily biased as you are doesn't make your point more important. If you dislike the GW creative team (was the inverted commas to show you think that they are not very creative?) be creative and make your own game about stout space miners fighting of green little from space

helgrenze wrote:Of course Squats WERE one of the original 40k races.... unlike tyranids, dark eldar, necron and tau.

Yes and the ultramarines were originally not a first founding legion with a half eldar librarian, but things change and for most of GWs fluff for the better.

Hold up, Half Eldar Ultramarines Librarian, what?

In RT/2nd edition, there were "Half-Eldar". It was before they established that Eldar are really different genetically than humans and completely incompatible.

I found Iliyan Nastase. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=dee541fe5bb65dae204f4ca9ce145a93&t=520307&page=2

/facepalm

BluntmanDC wrote:

helgrenze wrote:Unfortunately, these points have been argued ad infintum. You are convinced that you are in the right and I, as an actual player of the old Squats lists from the RT days, know that the "creatives" at GW could have "fixed" the Squats, making them more "grim dark".... IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO....

Being heavily biased as you are doesn't make your point more important. If you dislike the GW creative team (was the inverted commas to show you think that they are not very creative?) be creative and make your own game about stout space miners fighting of green little from space

helgrenze wrote:Of course Squats WERE one of the original 40k races.... unlike tyranids, dark eldar, necron and tau.

Yes and the ultramarines were originally not a first founding legion with a half eldar librarian, but things change and for most of GWs fluff for the better.

Ok, imagine you work for a company that requires you to be creative and that company assigns you to a project that you have absolutely no interest in.... Do you tell your boss that you are "uninspired" and "lack enthuisasm" for the project? And if you do.. how long do you think you will be working for that company?
That is not my bias.. that is the reality of working in a creative field. Uninspired chefs do not last long in a restaurant, they wind up at McDonalds.

But in this case, the creative team included the top executives at GW at the time, so there was no-one to fire them.

I'm sorry but the options on this poll are pretty poor. It's asking if people would want to see a return of a comical, 1st edition relic, 20 years later amongst the quality of miniatures we have now? Of course the answer is going to be an overwhelming 'No'.

A better poll option would have been: "Would you like to see some kind of 'dwarf in space' analogue, such as that seen in the initial concept sketches made by Jes Goodwin during the design of the Tau"?
This would then leave the door open for those who are attracted to the concept of a highly advanced, perhaps machine-organic hybrid race, that really only has its diminutive stature in common with the design concept which really should be left with Rogue Trader.

The problem is that while people keep digging up models from 20 years ago and shoving them into the face of newcomers into the hobby, of course they are going to create this kind of negative reaction. I realise the hypocrisy of me saying this considering my avatar, but I was the only player I ever came across when I had a squat army, so I feel I am allowed to!

If Jes Goodwin sculpted the lions share of new army based on those initial concepts he drew, we all know that they would be incredible and up to date, and fit in perfectly with the current 40k range. Whether they are 'dwarves' or not makes no difference, but the only thing which is certain is that they would look nothing like the models posted in the OP. And I would put money on the fact that they would sell well.

But, the same old pictures keep getting dredged up, the same old argument of '40k is not WFB is in space' and in the meantime anyone from GW HQ who bothers to look at these forums will probably conclude that making anything stunty and slightly rotund in the 40k setting is probably not a good idea, simply because of the stink it creates. It's a shame - the negative side will be that we most likely won't get to see what might have been some quite incredible new concepts as a result.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Walrus wrote:I want them back because they are a joke. 40k has turned grimstupid and we need a nice kick back to the old days.

Says the poster using an avatar from that-very-grim-not-funny-moment-of-human-Eldar-relations.

Grimrealistic can go with grimsilly and grimdark. Grimstupid just makes us have bro-fisting necrons and blood angels.

you want grim dark reboot of squats? They come back after being cut off by a warpstorm that stopped the hive fleet just short of their planet and they are super pissed that the imperium didnt come to help. using their technology the recruit other races and arm them to overthrow as many nearby imperium controlled planets as they can and bring back STC's that the admech could never have dreamed existed. Forging secret alliances they seek to carve out an area of space for tech to grow and reclaim the glory of their people. Bam gritty reboot that brings a chance to have admech troops.

Okay, that sounds cool, especially the admech troops



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except which gameplay niche would they fill?

squats would be awesome

I say no. Come up with something slightly more original than space dwarves, before you bring back an extinct race.

micahaphone wrote:Okay, that sounds cool, especially the admech troops



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except which gameplay niche would they fill?

Heavy weapons everywhere. Tough as nails vehicles. Squat in exosuit is like a dread. Stubborn like a boss. Admech does their thing using the squats engineering knowledge.

Really though there is no niche to any army. They all really do the same thing. Shoot a bit. Assault a bit.

ExarchCain wrote: were seen by many as a "Joke" race.

No, that was Orks. Although everything was considerably more light-hearted in 2nd and especially RT, Orks were the comic relief of 40k.

ExarchCain wrote:Dwarves in space? It just never sat right with me, I have always only really seen them as humorous, and don't sit right in the 40k universe in my opinion.

ROFL. But you're ok with elves in space, ogres in space, orks in space, ratlings in space... No, my guess is the real reason you don't like them is you weren't around back then, and they seem odd now. To those of us who were around in the RT days, they made as much sense as anything else in a space fantasy game.

And Three, they brought 40k too close to the 'typical' stereotype fantasy universe in terms of races.

This is the reason I think they should be brought back. It's just not space fantasy without them. Now, I can agree that the concept was not well thought out, and certainly could use some updating. The Demiurg are space dwarves chance at redemption. I do think there's a definite niche that they could fill, basically the same niche they fill in WFB.

This is the reason I think they should be brought back. It's just not space fantasy without them. Now, I can agree that the concept was not well thought out, and certainly could use some updating. The Demiurg are space dwarves chance at redemption. I do think there's a definite niche that they could fill, basically the same niche they fill in WFB.

ExarchCain wrote:40k is no longer just "Fantasy in space" which you seem so adamant on defending. It has evolved from that into a SCI-FI universe. Which is something ENTIRELY different. (for example, Star Wars ≠ Lord of the Rings). All the races have evolved from being "Space Elves", or "Space Dark Elves" to something a lot more in depth and suited to the sci-fi genre.

This is because the developers actually worked on making those evolutionary changes. In the case of the Squats, the claims are "lack of inspiration" and "Lack of enthusiasm".... as well as "Other projects" they found "more interesting". Had the Squats been given the same attention that Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Orks got, then they would fit the setting today. The studio chose to not work on developing the Squats, and then decided to delete them from the game after not giving them the attention that other races/armies were given.

ExarchCain wrote:Sure, Orks have always been there for comic relief. But in saying that, they still have some sense of brutality/violence about them. Sure, maybe the Squats would suit the 40k Universe a little more when it WAS a joke, however the keyword you're missing here is WAS. 40k WAS a joke (or suffered from a lack of ideas/creativity at the time), however it has evolved from something much further from then. To the point where I personally think that Squats would just be silly.

Elves in space? These are the Eldar, who, while they are ESSENTIALLY elves in space, they vary strongly from your typical 'fantasy Elf' stereotype.
Ogres in space? You mean Ogryn? The Ogryn are a mutant species of humans, adapted to live in strongly differing environments to your typical human. Ogres in fantasy on the other hand, are an entirely different race.
Ratlings? Don't like them either. I hardly see the point of little people snipers, when you can have normal sized people snipers.

40k is no longer just "Fantasy in space" which you seem so adamant on defending. It has evolved from that into a SCI-FI universe. Which is something ENTIRELY different. (for example, Star Wars ≠ Lord of the Rings). All the races have evolved from being "Space Elves", or "Space Dark Elves" to something a lot more in depth and suited to the sci-fi genre.

You don't see any contradiction between those paragraphs? Lolz.

Also, on a side note, who are you exactly to be telling me that I wasn't around in those days?

I said that was my guess, based on your comments. You could be an exception, but the majority of people I've met that feel as you do are people who have joined in the last edition or so.

One more thing, where, exactly is this niche they could fulfil? As it stands, there are 10 different armies within the 40k game. (not including the various space marine codices) each with their own variety of units etc. I'm pretty certain that doesn't leave too much room for an entire race to randomly decide to stop being near-extinct and wage war on the universe.

As I said, the same one that WFB dwarves fill.