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Noir wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Noir wrote:To many people like the "holier than thou" heros, so thats what they get.

Genocide and violent religious fanaticism from genetically engineered super soldiers is "holier than thou?"

Yes, you know "holier than thou" means rigth.

Yes, but what does rigth mean?

I think I see what you're saying though, they aren't actually good guys but they think that they're the good guys? Am I understanding you correctly?

Every universe needs a central figure to focus on. Star Wars wouldn't be terribly interesting if it put as much focus on the Bothans, Jawas, Wookies and Ewoks as it did on the Rebels and Imperials. Marines also are the de facto starter army/marketing tool, so to shift focus would be counter-intuitive.

Brother SRM wrote:Every universe needs a central figure to focus on. Star Wars wouldn't be terribly interesting if it put as much focus on the Bothans, Jawas, Wookies and Ewoks as it did on the Rebels and Imperials. Marines also are the de facto starter army/marketing tool, so to shift focus would be counter-intuitive.

I'm struggling to find the blatantly obvious poster child focus army in Warhammer Fantasy. Empire is the central faction, but they take about as much credit as Imperial Guard. It's like the mirror of Warhammer 40k without the Space Marines.

Mr Nobody wrote:

MADLarkin wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

But that's still a small elite group amongst other faction which are much larger, just like space marines.

In the Halo lore, the reason they were a "small" Elite group was that the Covenant attacked as the program was being started. Marines, in general, are fewer in number than the amount of soldiers in any army. If you read the fluff, there are, maybe, 2 to 3 marines for every planet in the Emperium. However, IG are drafted from planets every so many years, or when theres a need for soldiers.

Also, there used to be fewer chapters of the SM until the Horus Heresy. After words, the Emperium split the chapters so they would have less Marines, creating a whole mess of chapters. Same reason the split the artillery, air support, and ground troops of the IG

Brother SRM wrote:Every universe needs a central figure to focus on. Star Wars wouldn't be terribly interesting if it put as much focus on the Bothans, Jawas, Wookies and Ewoks as it did on the Rebels and Imperials. Marines also are the de facto starter army/marketing tool, so to shift focus would be counter-intuitive.

If you read the books, they Do put emphasis on these lesser races. Humans sometimes show up as, wait for it, Side Characters. The wide number of aliens that Star Wars has does allow for a far greater variety of beings to chose from as opposed to 40K, but even so the Star Wars universe has been unafraid of putting the main characters on the side in favor of exploring some of the lesser known races to flesh them out. Does this always work out for the best, absolutely not, but occasionally it comes up with a really cool idea that gets explored and grown to full potential throughout the series. 40K, I feel, should try producing some stuff that just kinda ignores the humans, maybe some Tau vs. 'Nids and Orks as they expand or some lesser, newly formed race just getting into the space fairing mode then attempting to colonize a Tomb World before getting entirely wiped out. Stuff like this could elaborate on other races without being another Imperial focused novel.

i think some of the xeno races need some more spotlight on them. orks obvious are secondary but i think tau would be a good secondary race to put against another race like necrons.

Every punk ass kid and their mom plays Space Marines.

Every non-Space Marine player tends to be an older player who started out with Space Marines.

The 2 cheesiest codexes right now are: Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Space Marines suck.

DorianGray wrote:Every punk ass kid and their mom plays Space Marines.

Every non-Space Marine player tends to be an older player who started out with Space Marines.

The 2 cheesiest codexes right now are: Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Space Marines suck.

not all of us are older players. I started with orks only because i loved orks in warcraft series so i wanted to play them on 40k too.

By older I mean 21. I'm 22 and I consider myself "old" compared to all those punk-ass kids with their crappy painted ultra-marines.

Not to mention Space Marines are WAYYY EASIER to paint then Eldar or horde armies. Most kids do not have the patience to buy & paint a lot of models (like hordes) and they prefer the most shinyest oohhh ahhh thing out there rather than "gay space elves" (I've been told me by a 11 year old kid) or regular guys (IG) who wants to be regular guys in a sci-fi game?

It's all a sign of immaturity. Kid + space marines = GW target market. I consider Chaos Space Marines to be the same sign of immaturity. Spiky SM FTW

Real men play Xenos. (or some non-SM faction)

IS ANYONE gonna deny that Dark Eldar or Tau simply takes way more skill than 3+ saves all around Space Marines? Kids can't handle it they want the Terminators man. Kids don't like playing with fragile glass-cannon armies that require skill and is unforgiving.

DorianGray wrote:By older I mean 21. I'm 22 and I consider myself "old" compared to all those punk-ass kids with their crappy painted ultra-marines.

Not to mention Space Marines are WAYYY EASIER to paint then Eldar or horde armies. Most kids do not have the patience to buy & paint a lot of models (like hordes) and they prefer the most shinyest oohhh ahhh thing out there rather than "gay space elves" (I've been told me by a 11 year old kid) or regular guys (IG) who wants to be regular guys in a sci-fi game?

It's all a sign of immaturity. Kid + space marines = GW target market. I consider Chaos Space Marines to be the same sign of immaturity. Spiky SM FTW

Real men play Xenos. (or some non-SM faction)

I see more people older than me(23) playing Marines. The "kids+space marines=GW target market" is actually a mistake.

Power Armor appeals to the tournament players, Marines especially do. It has nothing to do with immaturity, like you hypothesize.

It's all about proxying. Space Marines can proxy as damned near anything out there, leading to a larger amount of potential armies for a tournament player at the least expenditure.

IS ANYONE gonna deny that Dark Eldar or Tau simply takes way more skill than 4+ saves all around Space Marines? Kids can't handle it they want the Terminators man.

...You do realize Marines are 3+ saves all around, right?

Dorian Gray wrote:By older I mean 21. I'm 22 and I consider myself "old" compared to all those punk-ass kids with their crappy painted ultra-marines.

Not to mention Space Marines are WAYYY EASIER to paint then Elder or horde armies. Most kids do not have the patience to buy & paint a lot of models (like hordes) and they prefer the most shiniest ooh ohhh thing out there rather than "gay space elves" (I've been told me by a 11 year old kid) or regular guys (IG) who wants to be regular guys in a sci-fi game?

It's all a sign of immaturity. Kid + space marines = GW target market. I consider Chaos Space Marines to be the same sign of immaturity. Spiky SM FTW

Real men play Xenos. (or some non-SM faction)

IS ANYONE gonna deny that Dark Eldar or Tau simply takes way more skill than 3+ saves all around Space Marines? Kids can't handle it they want the Terminators man. Kids don't like playing with fragile glass-cannon armies that require skill and is unforgiving.

Your painting with a rather broad brush there man,people chose the armies they do for a variety of reasons and they certainly aren't as limited as you seem to believe.

Yeah 3+ saves.

Is anyone gonna deny "IN GENERAL" Space Marines are a lot more forgiving to play than almost every other army out there. Also they are A LOT easier to paint and magnetize than those tiny Eldar torsos or Tau. (Except Necrons, lol they are easy to paint)

I was magnetizing my models, I originally got magnets meant for Space Marine shoulders only to realize they were WAY TOO BIG for my Eldar arms. I had to get really really tiny magnets to magnetize my Exarchs and it was a PAIN to glue them, etc. Also 2000 pt. Space Marine Army is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 2000 pt. Guard Army or a 2000 pt. Dark Eldar Army. Kidz have less money or are dependent on their parents.

This appeals to beginners. This appeals to kids. Most kids play Space Marines.

Sure some die-hard veterans play Space Marines (namely Space Wolves or Blood Angels) because they are WAAC gamers.

Seriously guys Space Marines suck... 8 out of 10 players at your club has a Space Marine army. Stop the madness take a stand and MAKE a difference.!

That said, there is always that 1 kid who is extremely dedicated to painting his models to a high quality, have great manners, is very mature, started with Tau or some other underpowered Xenos faction and plays with stoic dignity against cheese Blood Angels. That kid is a prodigy, going against the grain, that kid is a hero. 1 in a hundred (the rest decided to start 40k with space marines) REMEMBER THIS KID. He should be praised.

Monster Rain wrote:The Space Marines are the focus of the story in 40k.

It's like complaining that there's too much focus on Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings.

Then there's the fact that Space Marines are awesome.

^ This. I have to agree that Space Marines are the story. I also agree that, sometimes it's good to branch off. It's healthy for the game. Lets the Space Marines relax abit, while another race refreshes the storyline. They don't have to be put on the back burner, just not in your grill constantly.

I also play SM, Space Wolves in particular. Some people like to play the game for the connection aspect. it allows people to play other people for fun and get to know others who play the same game, even if they dont use the same faction or play the same way. I play Space wolves because my wife and i are in the SCA, and we are both from Norwegian backgrounds. The Space wolves remind me of the Vikings, which came from around and in Norway. Its a connection for me. I don't expect to be as good as any tourny player (though i wish i could be) and just enjoy the game for what it is. If that means getting crushed by some Xeno-Horde or glasscannon fragile army, i'm going to laugh. Hard. Then shake hands with the guy who beat me and then play the next guy. Pure and simple.

Its just a game. It shouldn't matter what army you play as long as you have fun while you play. I enjoy seeing how the enemy is going to destroy my army until i build it up enough to no longer worry about being wiped off the board. ( My orks are slowly being built up and i mean very slowly)

DorianGray wrote:Yeah 3+ saves.

Is anyone gonna deny "IN GENERAL" Space Marines are a lot more forgiving to play than almost every other army out there. Also they are A LOT easier to paint and magnetize than those tiny Eldar torsos or Tau. (Except Necrons, lol they are easy to paint)
I was magnetizing my models, I originally got magnets meant for Space Marine shoulders only to realize they were WAY TOO BIG for my Eldar arms. I had to get really really tiny magnets to magnetize my Exarchs.

This appeals to beginners. This appeals to kids. Most kids play Space Marines.

Actually, Eldar are far easier to paint using "simple" methods. If I were to actually want to?

I could do a Dark Eldar army in a manner of days using two colors and washes--and it would look good.
You can't really do that with Marines, simply because of the way the armor is set up.

Magnetizing is something beginners don't do, so that's a terrible example.

Sure some die-hard veterans play Space Marines (namely Space Wolves or Blood Angels) because they are WAAC gamers.

Seriously guys Space Marines suck... 8 out of 10 players at your club has a Space Marine army. Stop the madness take a stand and MAKE a difference.!

Uh, actually at my club?

It's the exact opposite. 14 out of our 15 players has a Dark Eldar or Eldar army.
8 of those 14 have either a Tyranid or Tau army as well.

I'm one of maybe three people who actually have a Marine army, and that's Dark Angels.

People who play unique Marine Armies like Ravenwing, or Deathwing or fluffy armies get a pass.

WAAC Space Wolves players who spam IMBA long fangs, Thunderwolves, and Blood Angels running Mephiston, lord of cheese don't. Note this also applies to IG running leafblower lists with 10 Chimeras, Vendettas, etc. (aka. a@@holes)

I wish 95% of kids didn't start 40k with Space Marines. They aren't cool , they're over-done, and being drawn to "THIS IS SPARTAAA" wearing power-armor is really immature.

I actually plan on getting a second army, but i don't have any clues on what to do. Yes, i started with SM's. Do i enjoy it? Yes i do. I this all i'm going to want? no. (If anyone here could pm me what kind of army would go good with close combat, rip you to shreds tactics. any and all help is accepted and appreciated.)

DorianGray wrote:People who play unique Marine Armies like Ravenwing, or Deathwing or fluffy armies get a pass.

WAAC Space Wolves players who spam IMBA long fangs, Thunderwolves, and Blood Angels running Mephiston, lord of cheese don't.

Note this also applies to IG running leafblower lists with 10 Chimeras, Vendettas, etc. (aka. a@@holes)

How is this different to 3x Monolith Necrons, Serpentspam Eldar, Wych Cults, or Haemonculi Covens?
The Xenos codices have got the potential to be nasty, same as the Marine ones.

I wish 95% of kids didn't start 40k with Space Marines. They aren't cool , they're over-done, and being drawn to "THIS IS SPARTAAA" wearing power-armor is really immature.

"95% of kids start 40k with Space Marines" for none of the reasons you listed.

They start with Space Marines because Space Marines are a good starter army. They're forgiving to the player, and they're a well-supported range of multi-part plastics.

And as an aside? " "THIS IS SPARTAAA" wearing power armor" is a huge misinterpretation of the Ultramarines.
First, they're based off the Roman Empire not the Hellenic Greeks or Spartans.
Second, the Ultramarines are nowhere near being "overdone" like the Space Wolves(Hurr! Vikings in Spehss!), the Tau(ANIMEALIENS!ZOMG!), the Dark Eldar(Hurr! Bondage Elveses!), or Slaanesh Daemons(OMGDEYHAVEBEWBS!).

You're just using an inaccurate stereotype to work from, and it's just backfiring all over the place.

Vierhof wrote:I actually plan on getting a second army, but i don't have any clues on what to do. Yes, i started with SM's. Do i enjoy it? Yes i do. I this all i'm going to want? no. (If anyone here could pm me what kind of army would go good with close combat, rip you to shreds tactics. any and all help is accepted and appreciated.)

I like this kid.

If you like close combat, rip to threads tactics - then obviously Tyranids or Orks. Both Xenos which is awesome. I'd recommend Dark Eldar if you really want to go into the deep end and be a man. They are fragile - most fragile in the game - arguably takes the most skill to use but they are very good at Close Combat and Assaulting. Also they are very rewarding once you get skills. They can be the 3rd or 4th most powerful army if you use them properly and well.

@Kanluwen: I already said Space Marines are the most forgiving army by far. Your entire army doesn't disintegrate if you made a terrible movement phase - if you're Dark Eldar on the other hand... good game. Space Marines are also the top 2 codexes right now. This is why kidz plays Space Marines.

Dorian, you really do seem to be throwing a ton of stereotypes around. In fact, your tone can really be interpreted as trolling.

You claim that SMs are mostly played because of how forgiving they are with well-rounded stats along with 3+ armor saves.

What if people play SMs (note: I'm referring to vanilla when I say SMs) because they enjoy the fluff? Or, better yet, the playstyle they offer? Or, the technology? (I myself LOVE SMs because of their tech; I'm the kind of person that doesn't complain about Star Trek's technobabble, in fact, I understand it and contribute to it. For the sake of argument though, anecdotes and personal preference can't really apply) You can't really apply sweeping broad statements without knowing the motivations behind players picking SMs as their main army.

While yes, there ARE players that play SMs because of how forgiving they are (or the flavorful SMs because of their sheer overpowered capabilities), what right do you have to judge them? It's their money, their time, their models. Not yours. You should be happy they're actually participating in a niche hobby rather than playing Call of Duty #1342452: Modern Grenade Spamtoss with 15 killstreak nuke the world and not actually trying out something different.

Throwing the maturity argument is a sign of immaturity.

Although I do agree that SM's are given too much attention.

Also, this is typical Eldar behaviour, thinking they're superior to everyone else. Kudos for staying true to your chosen race.

I also think it's kinda funny how he keeps saying 'If you want to be a man you should....'
The army you pick has nothing to do with how manly you are, and if you really think of it that way, SM are pretty damn manly.

The fact is Space Marines have grown so popular and large that they're actually hurting the hobby.

It seems kids are almost compelled to start with Space Marines. I remember when I first started 40k and asked players "whats a good army to begin with" I got Space Marines as the response every time.

GW's almost forces beginners to start with Space Marines with their adverts, and inclusions of them in the starter pack (Orks are at a big point disadvantage in that box)

All the Space Marine propaganda out there like the New Movie and the new SPACE MARINE video game coming out by relic psychologically rams new comers to play Space Marines.

Then once you start - this hobby is expensive - its REALLY hard to switch to a brand new army. GW promotes people to keep playing Space Marines because you can easily just swtich army books on the fly.

I started out with Imperial Guard, cause I loved their fluff. Well, that's just me.

As far as overemphasizing Marines in video games....well yeah! I mean, what players wants to play a Guardsman in FPS? 'Ok, level starrt! CHAR....oh you're dead.' Doesn't sound very fun to me. To be honest, Space Marines are GW's flagship army, and, they are the easiest to just set up as old fashioned, chivalric heroes. They're easy to understand, and they're easy to paint, and easy to play. Which...to be honest is kind of the point of getting young, new players to play Marines.

How many players do you think would keep coming back to this hobby they barely knew if they took say...Tau, and then just got their ass handed to them again, and again and again? I personally would feel a bit...underwhelmed by that kind of thing, and not be too interested. By giving new players easy access to Marines, GW kinda helps to draw them in. They have an army that's tough, and even win a few games even without a lot of experience. As they get more involved in the hobby, they may consider switching hobbies...and even if they don't? Oh, well!

I mean, seriously, who cares if alot of armies are Space Marines...I personally don't think it's the armies that make great game clubs great, it's the players themselve. I bet I could find a game club where everyone plays Space marines, but since everyone is a good gamer, it's an awesome club. Similarly, I'd bet there are clubs out there where everyone has a wide range of armies, but everyone is a whining TFG, so...yeah.

Dorian..... Shut up....

You want to know what? I have always loved fighting. In DnD, I played as the Fighter, simply because THEY FREAKIN BREAK FACE IN CLOSE COMBAT. When I started Warhammer Fantasy, I played Orcs, because they came with the box set AND THEY BROKE FACE IN CLOSE COMBAT. When I got older, and started to realize that Orcs aren't the greatest thing ever, I saw one unit of Khornate Warriors of Chaos tank not one, not two, not even three, but four units of Empire soldiers. These Khornate Warriors were flanked on each side, and had a unit in their rear, AND were engaged in close combat in the front. I don't remember, but they were already down something like 12 to their Leadership test, not to mention that some of them were getting torn down in combat.

You want to know something? When I saw that unit of Khornate Warriors actually win that combat (They inflicted around 17 casualties each turn), this at-the-time twelve year old, who oh so loved to break peoples faces in close combat, was mesmerized by the sheer killing power they displayed. I immediately dropped Orcs and Gobbos, and started to play a Khorne Warriors of Chaos army. Eventually I started reading the fluff, and fell for each of the Gods in turn. I loved the fluff, that they were warriors of the gods, and that it wasn't their place to question the God's will, only to enact it. I started losing, simply because of the lack of Ranged options in the then Chaos Codex, and my parents wouldn't even let me use Spawn or Daemons in the army, because they didn't want me to "personify Daemons with my playing". But I still playd, because I loved the army.

When we made the switch to Warhammer 40k, my army was already decided; Chaos Space Marines. They were familiar, if not exact, and they had basically the same fluff, God wise.

You can call me an ADD little kid who only likes the 3+ save, terminator armour, and the easy paint scheme. Go ahead. But I know that there is a very specific reason as to why I wont use another codex for a Chaos Count As, and why I have only ever deviated out of Chaos Space Marines once, for two battles.

I also know that the only thing that will take me out of Chaos Space Marines is when I start building up my third of the Appocolypse army me and my brothers are putting together. After those 30,000pts, I am never touching it outside of Apocolypse again.

Wow,

At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that Space Marines and Spiky Space Marines are:

-Forgiving
-Easy to Paint
-Cheap
-Overpowered (Blood Angels & Space Wolves)
-Overplayed

But like I said there is always that one kid who started with Tau, paints extremely well and still owned playing a underpowered codex. This kid is awesome.

All the kids who chose to play Space Marines are not as virtuous as the kid above.

DorianGray wrote:Wow,

At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that Space Marines and Spiky Space Marines are:

-Forgiving
-Easy to Paint
-Cheap
-Overpowered (Blood Angels & Space Wolves)
-Overplayed

But like I said there is always that one kid who started with Tau, paints extremely well and still owned playing a underpowered codex. This kid is awesome.

All the kids who chose to play Space Marines are not as virtuous as the kid above.

There's a huge hole in your understanding of Chaos Space Marines and Loyal Space Marines. It's more than just spikes, it goes deeper than that.

Dorian Gray wrote:Wow,

At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that Space Marines and Spiky Space Marines are:

-Forgiving
-Easy to Paint
-Cheap
-Overpowered (Blood Angels & Space Wolves)
-Overplayed

But like I said there is always that one kid who started with Tau, paints extremely well and still owned playing a underpowered codex. This kid is awesome.

All the kids who chose to play Space Marines are not as virtuous as the kid above.

Dude seriously?..are you off your meds?
Are you honestly attempting to some how link virtuosity to what group of little plastic soldiers a person decides to play?
Really?

Pretty sure this dude is just trying to troll now. Don't feed him.