Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One race dominates all the lore and storyline. The game would be better if one race was not so central to everything. Having these supposed super warriors that are also so cool creates a game that is too focused on either playing space marines or beating space marines. Space marines are in every starter set, but are supposed to be an elite army, so the proliferation of SM stats distorts game play. SM's should be toned down and take a back seat for a while in the release schedule.

Hang on...
Why have you made another thread saying SM are the best?

Just be upfront if you want a discussion mate
You can pose both postions in the same thread.

purplefood wrote:Hang on...
Why have you made another thread saying SM are the best?

WIN


I like the fact that space marines are the main army ( not that they have a gak load of codexes tho...)

Having an army which all the lore is centred around and the antagonist factions are compared to is very fine and good, but the fact that the Space Marines are described as being the best is what makes the fluff so bad.

Take Eldar. High technology, developed culture, declining civilization and generally a humane psyche (which is detrimental in a world where everyone wants to kill everything). Lots of pros and cons.

Take Orks. Fungus based life form, no a lot of brain-power, loves combat, etc. Perfect antagonist, excellent fluff.

Take Tau. An empire on the rise, struggling with the finer points of technology, dubious ethics behind the scene. Excellent faction by large.

Take Imperial Guard. The common man, roughly trained, fighting the real fight against a universe struggling to kill humanity off. Perfect protector of mankind.

Against this background - why do we even need Space Marines? To have them as a specialist branch of the Imperial Guard would make excellent sense, but to have them dictate and dominate everything that happens to the point where the Imperial Guard victories and defeats are meaningless - and to where the other factions progress is measured by the distance to the closest Space Marine chapter (actually, scout squad in some cases). It just doesn't make for the best of fluff to support a game.

But I guess Games Workshop isn't about the game and that they are surprised every time they find someone who plays for the game and not the space marine novels.

Shift marines save to 4+ and watch everyone switch armys .

obsidianaura wrote:Shift marines save to 4+ and watch everyone switch armys .

I'd rather see them toned down fluff wise rather than game wise. Game wise they can be fun to play, fluff wise they are the most boring army IMHO

Why do we have space marines in W40K? I guess it's because most (if not all) good sci-fi stories involve some way or another elite superhumans clad in thick armour. Think about Halo, starcraft, crysis, vanquish or even star wars...
GW simply developped this key element of science fiction and made it the center element its universe.

However, I agree that it somehow backfired at GW; since many, many W40K players choose to play the SM since they have the cooler fluff. As a result, we see LOTS of SM armies and it kills the idea of rare, elite supersoldiers.

Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

Laodamia wrote:Why do we have space marines in W40K? I guess it's because most (if not all) good sci-fi stories involve some way or another elite superhumans clad in thick armour. Think about starship troopers or even star wars...
GW simply continued this key element of science fiction and made it the center element its universe.

There, fixed it for you.

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

You have Space Marines in 40K because they comprise the largest percentage of sales of all GW products by far.

Though it would be nice to see another army take the stage...
Imperial guard?
Tau?
GW do seem to hate the Xeno armies...

MADLarkin wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

But that's still a small elite group amongst other faction which are much larger, just like space marines.

I wouldn't mind at all if there wasn't a bazillion marine codexes (chaos marines don't count)

With so many, all the other armies gotta wait longer for stuff.

SMs are one of the "coolest" armies around. They look super-badass and they perform incredibly well on the battlefield. I agree that they get a bit too much of the spotlight and would love to see some more focus on xenos forces, but I don't begrudge GW for giving their coolest and most popular army the most love.

MADLarkin wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

You may be restricted to 10 fingers, but you don't have to be limited to counting to 10. It's pretty easy to count to 1,024 on your fingers. Just use binary with "Up" for 1 and "Down" for 0.

And, I can use (although somewhat painfully) 2 intermediate "up" positions, letting you count up to 4 per finger and a total of 1,048,576.

Looks at Avatar of OP.....right, obvious title for a thread...

juraigamer wrote:I wouldn't mind at all if there wasn't a bazillion marine codexes (chaos marines don't count)

With so many, all the other armies gotta wait longer for stuff.

Were NOT there, still some quantillion marine codices to be done

Just remember: 40k is constructed around the IoM background.

And Csm do count as sm ( maybe less than that..).

Its not like DE aren't squatted and necrons may be not that far.
Nids don't count as non-space marine release?

Is it so hard to spot the path of updating the oldest codices and PDF-dexes first, material that relied upon other codices to work?
5th ed is meant to be self-containing (except USR of course ) codices.

The Space Marines are the focus of the story in 40k.

It's like complaining that there's too much focus on Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings.

Then there's the fact that Space Marines are awesome.

GW has also said that they prefer the Imperium be the focus because they are easier for the consumer to relate to. Even the alien codices are supposed to be written from the Imperial standpoint (examples: Tyranid and Orks) because they could never properly display things in a non-human mindset.

Some might call it a cop-out, a cheap excuse for poor writing, but really there isn't much sci-fi that does a good job of positioning you in the alien mindset; it all comes out skewed.

As for "a billion" marine codices, can we really lay off the hyperbole? It doesn't add much to a discussion.

Sure we would like to see Lex bitch slap Superman to death, but isn't going to happen. To many people like the "holier than thou" heros, so thats what they get.

Noir wrote:To many people like the "holier than thou" heros, so thats what they get.

Genocide and violent religious fanaticism from genetically engineered super soldiers is "holier than thou?"

The problem isn't with Space Marines, it's the oversaturation of Space Marines. Of the 16 currently available Warhammer 40,000 Codexes, nearly half of them are Space Marine books (DH,SM,DA,BA,SW,BT,CSM). They cannibalize sales from each other, take development/marketing/release/retail time and resources away from other factions, and extend the time it takes to update all the army books by about 2 years. If they were to cut it down to DH/CSM/SM, amalgamating DA/BA/BT/SW into SM, then you might get all the armies updated within the span of a single edition, and you'd have less problems with differences between editions and supposedly identical wargear between all SM books. Additionally, you'd remove a lot of the angst and frustration from the rest of the playerbase.

Monster Rain wrote:
Genocide and violent religious fanaticism from genetically engineered super soldiers is "holier than thou?"

Unfortunately, yes, recent SM fluff is far more of the "holy knight in shining armor" crap, and a lot less the psycho-indoctrinated, genetically engineered super soldier religious fanatic stuff. You won't find much, if any fluff, in the recent SM books of the extremism that heralded some of the older books. They're almost all Mary Sue's.

MADLarkin wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

It is possible to count to more than 10 using two hands. If you use each finger as a digit in a binary number, it is possible to count to 1023 using both hands. Mr. Nobody's statement still stands.

I dont get how people think that Marine Chapters are all that rare...

Legions split into countless chapters across multiple foundings. They are the knights of a failing realm and flawed in many ways, with exception to the Ultramarines but that is their gimmick.

Overall I think it would alleviate a lot of problems if people where to create their own or more unique chapters or pick more obscure insperations instead of just doing the standard few that you see revolve around LFGS. Also the death of fluffy competative Marine armies with SC spamming ruins a lot of what a marine player can do. Why take a generic Chapter master when you can have Pedro, kantor, Shrike, Vulckan, etc which dramatically increases the utility of what that force could do without the SC.

For instance, instead of running a BA army why not do a Lamentars Chapter?

I wish people would do this more. Seems like all I see is the standard
Salamanders
Ultramarines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels

All of the above, with the exception of SW, have countless seedling chapters.

Part of it could also be GW's marketing ploys. Most of the young kids that play 40K (that i know of) play SM.

I don't think SM need to be toned down. GW should tone up all the other xeno factions. They need some love.

Space Marines aren't all that bad. They still feel "epic" imho, which is what they're all about. The mistake GW makes with them is that SM steal the spotlight from everyone else. As long as GW can get people like Phil Kelly, Jes Goodwin, et al. to keep up their great work on the xeno fluff/codices/models, things will be alright.

svendrex wrote:

MADLarkin wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

It is possible to count to more than 10 using two hands. If you use each finger as a digit in a binary number, it is possible to count to 1023 using both hands. Mr. Nobody's statement still stands.

Technically you could also count to infinity with a single finger if you assign it that value. Let us not argue semantics, however, especially against ones that are as simple as counting fingers.

As previously stated: Humans are the main characters.

Perhaps some people want to play aliens fighting other aliens, or aliens fighting humans, but in general, most humans like to root for their own team. Space Marines were among the first races in the lore that became Warhammer 40k, and have been the flagship army since the game started (long before the Imperial Army was available). If Games Workshop suddenly shifted from focussing on Space Marines even to Imperial Guardsmen, they would risk loosing both current customers, 'fence sitting' customers, and future customers who might be interested in buying product. If you like science fiction, you're just as likely to associate with a Space Marine as you are with a Guardsmen, but not necessarily the other way around. As much as I like the Orks, I don't associate myself with them, and they are the next closest

However, I do agree, I would like to see alternate starter sets than just Space Marines v. "Somebody." Space Marines were not my first army, nor a lot of other people's.

purplefood wrote:Hang on...
Why have you made another thread saying SM are the best?

I think you mistook the other poster as CymrA, the Bizarro version of ArmyC. Unlike ArmyC, CymrA is born in Aibmuloc, North Carolina.

Seriously tho, I always thought that if they released Warhammer 40k starter boxes, they could do an alternative box every so often. Fantasy releases all different armies when there is a reboot. But for 40k, they could do a main starter box w/Marines vs. 'X', and alternative box with the two different armies. The alternative box would be smaller and have less troops than if you buy the main box w/Marines, but at least there would be more flavor

I'm glad that they have the starter army boxes though, it makes starting a new army a lot cheaper and faster than it used to be. I think the OP is missing the fact that the main powerhouse empire of 40k is the Imperium and that Space Marines are the spear that normally engages enemies first. Makes sense they would take the fore front, even though sometimes we want a little variety...

Noir Eternal wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:Shift marines save to 4+ and watch everyone switch armys .

I'd rather see them toned down fluff wise rather than game wise. Game wise they can be fun to play, fluff wise they are the most boring army IMHO

This.

They lack any humanity in the fluff. They are super badasses that kill EVERYTHING, and therefore have no fear. When I play, I know that my guys aren't that amazing, and so the fear is bred into my games, making the miniatures under my command much more human than many of the Soulless, abhuman automatons that we see doing synchronized wading in a sea of dead, dying, or horribly maimed foes.

Tone it down.. just a little bit. Conflicts between fear for survival and duty and honor are always fun and interesting to exploit.

Monster Rain wrote:

Noir wrote:To many people like the "holier than thou" heros, so thats what they get.

Genocide and violent religious fanaticism from genetically engineered super soldiers is "holier than thou?"

Yes, you know "holier than thou" means rigth.

Adj. obnoxiously pious; sanctimonious; self-righteous.

Noun. a person who is obnoxiously pious or self-righteous.

Sounds a lot like SM, too me.