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None of that seems to be an issue for the vast majority of RPG's, CCG's, or some other wargames. Flames of War published new army lists/units/errata online all the time.

the only players I've seen ever complain about updates and erratas being done on something other than a glacial pace and online is 40k players...on internet forums.

Backfire wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:
If this were 1995, or even 2000 you would be right. But it's 2011 and most people (especially most younger players, the ones who can't recite the fluff backwards and forwards) are well acquainted with the idea of going to a website.

True. And last thing they do there, is to read lengthy stories from the screen.

1. Tough cookies for them if they don't bother to read the fluff. Why should I have to pay for 20 pages about the Horus Heresy in each new book I buy?
2. Unwillingness to read long-form-text from a screen is a generational thing (one I'm on the cusp of, I just can't get used to it...).

Vaktathi wrote:None of that seems to be an issue for the vast majority of RPG's, CCG's, or some other wargames. Flames of War published new army lists/units/errata online all the time.

Actually, everything changing all the time WAS what drove me from MtG. So yeah, I can say that it was a pretty serious issue for me. RPG's are not played competively, and most gaming groups simply houserule everything anyway so any kind of standarization is not an issue at all.

Vaktathi wrote:
the only players I've seen ever complain about updates and erratas being done on something other than a glacial pace and online is 40k players...on internet forums.

Ever played Descent...?

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah. Have you read anything beyond the Codex?

Yes? Your point? What terribly contradicts the codices?

Not 'contradicts', but further explains. Training for the Guard isn't done overnight, nor is it done in a practical basis. It goes based off the need(as the Munitorum sees it) for specific things and if the world in question can provide it.

To go back to the Tanith example: the Imperial Governor, who was an off-worlder originally, praised the stealth and innate navigation abilities of the Tanith. The Munitorum, which was wanting to raise some Regiments from Tanith, provided the same organizational and equipment training to the Tanith as they would the Valhallans or the Catachans. The difference is that the Tanith already had the stealth and navigatory training.

Not actually true. Flak armor is also universal . The only real 'difference' is how the flak armor is represented. Valhallans' longcoat stuffed with flak plates is just a different 'pattern' than a Cadians' full on body armor.

Not even then. Some regiments don't even use it, many Catachan's and regiments from primitive worlds like Kanak. When Catachan's *had* their own rules, they had 6+sv's not the Flak 5+.

Catachans actually, if you'll recall correctly, were just described as eschewing the flak armor but instead wearing a jacket or vest packed with flak plates.
Kanak is a big who cares. They're mentioned once as an example of a 'barbarian' regiment using melee weapons and pistols and have yet to really be seen again.

Very few are the regiments entirely decked out in Carapace Armor or Cameloline. And both are usually specialist regiments formed for a specific purpose.

Which again, given the size of the Imperial Guard, means potentially many tens or hundreds of thousands of regiments consisting of billions of soldiers.

if we're talking about how individual SM chapters get their own books simply for how they field certain troops, that's more than enough difference right there.

Except we're not. We're talking about fully fleshed out backgrounds and a kind of 'history' for these Chapters and how they field certain troops which differentiates them from the rest of the Astartes.

Not my problem that the dev team can't follow through with their own design philosophy.
If, say, the Tanith were to be given a Codex--I'm sure no one would really object that much. If the Cadians were given a Codex of their own or the Elysians, etc were there'd be an uproar from the ill-informed masses.

So what? Are you going to tell me that the make-up of, say, a culture like the Mordians is different than the Cadians? They're both effectively worlds 'under siege' and breed that warrior mentality.
To think that 'sheer diversity of ancient cultures' won't necessarily breed multiple examples of the same thing is silly.

Certainly not any less so than the loyalist SM books. There could be more than enough between those two worlds to make a book at least as different as C:BA is from C:SM if one wanted to. Not hard to find RL examples of similar technology/industrial base/oppressive military states' armies with significant differences in how their armies work. Look at WW2 with the Red Army versus the Wehrmacht.

And let's look at the US today versus the UK or Germany.
Not really too much difference there.

And again:
Codex: Blood Angels could have been done far better to differentiate it from Codex: Space Marines. The writer and the supervising staff is at fault for that issue, not necessarily the fluff for the book or the playerbase.

Except that's BS when you come down to it. The training of the Guard is done by the Munitorum, but almost always are they trained first as those 'conscript horde regiments of many tens or hundreds of thousands of troops'. As time goes on, the regiment may receive more specialized training--or they received it to begin with because they were founded for a specific purpose.

No, It is the planetary Imperial Commander's responsibility to train and equip troops for the Munitorum to take and use. The Munitorum may provide additional training if required, or sometimes step in and directly do so in special cases, but it's typically the job of the whatever world they come from to train and equip them.

You do know that the "planetary Imperial Commander" is a representative of the Munitorum, right?

There are many examples of such varied regiments as the hundreds of thousands strong conscript horde. The current book talks about such units when describing the reasons for the variation between regiments.

And again: so what? The Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, and several other Chapters regularly field Battle-Brothers in Scout Armour for operations to decapitate enemy leadership. Does that mean Commanders, etc should have a Scout Armour and Sniper Rifle, along with the option for orbital strikes as Heavy Support?

Although, admittedly, that would give Dark Angels something "unique" to them in that they could feasibly field an all Scout force. Provided Scouts are moved from Elite.

You know, here's the biggest problem I have with that example.
The "Cadian standard" is actually far beyond what the Codex shows. You've got the Kasrkin, they Whiteshields, et all. They were done a grave injustice by not actually being presented in a proper format, and leading to this idea that Cadia is a 'cookie cutter' army.

The Kasrkin are Stormtroopers trained on Cadia from their ranks instead of through the Schola. Whiteshields are Conscripts/trainees. Not seeing what the problem is, besides the fact that both of those units aren't exactly great given their current rules.

Which actually shows that you know diddly regarding the fluff.
Kasrkin aren't "stormtroopers trained on Cadia". They're genetically augmented, decked out with gear the equivalent of Skittari(the first time 'Kasrkin' were mentioned, which was within the Eisenhorn books, they had full carapace armour that had built-in IFF transponders, full environmental gear, and hellguns with autosense locks preventing them from being used against the Kasrkin or anyone they tagged as 'friendly'), and are identified from the time that they're Whiteshields rather than just being the offspring of noble families or of slain Imperial officials. By the time Kasrkin are actually selected, they've been through combat and are full Guardsmen rather than simply children. Which brings me to Whiteshields...

Whiteshields are, simply put, leaps and bounds above of Conscripts/Trainees. They'd be, at least, on par with the 'standard' Guardsmen of most conscripted regiments. They're put into live fire exercises constantly, and are trained/taught by the Cadian troopers themselves.

It's never explicitly been stated, as far as I know. But it's always been a point that they make of "the Dark Angels, unlike many Chapters, can still field examples of Pre-Heresy technology such as large amounts of plasma weaponry".

Other than the blurb describing the Plasma Gun in the current DA book wargear section about often taking PG's from armory because of their firepower (not necessarily that this is any more or less so than other chapters), and the fact that with the Index Astartes they could swap a Lascannon for a Plasma Cannon in Tactical squads (before that was a widespread option for SM armies, and no explanation was given) I don't see much that really says much about a preference for plasma weapons in any DA codex or their Index Astartes article.

Again: it's never really explicitly stated within the Codices. The novels, etc built up that imagery.

However, like other Astartes Chapters...they do adapt as the situation necessitates.

The biggest problem with the idea that 'Guard could be broken into multiple codices' is simply that Guard are adaptable. They don't get to have the egos of the Astartes when it comes to being told what to do. A Light Infantry Regiment may be told to put on Carapace Armor and go man the trenches, while a Mechanized unit may be told to buck up and foot slog it.

So just because they can be ordered (and thus follow a chain of command and make use of that discipline) to do something else given the circumstances or commanders incapable of taking advantage of their properties, means that they shouldn't have rules where because the SM's won't follow such orders they *need* them?

If you're going to try to use fluff justifications for the Guard having multiple codices?
Then yes.

Could the Guard benefit from multiple codices? Sure.
Will it happen? Probably not.
Why? Because let's face it, unless the game itself is drastically altered, then Guard variants will ultimately filter back to the 'mechanized' variant.

To be honest; I feel its gotten to the point where it would be amazing to see Eldar/Necrons/Tau/Whatever become the next uberbroken list; as it will actually get more Xeno players for sure.

I'm getting sick of coming up reasons why my Inquisition would fight Space Marines.

Mr Hyena wrote:I'm getting sick of coming up reasons why my Inquisition would fight Space Marines.

Heresy is the only reason you need. And the only one to which no retort may be offered.

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually yes. All lasguns are the same. The 'Triplex pattern' was basically a joke. Every pattern of lasgun has 'variable fire settings'.

Wait, so, all lasguns are the same, even though there are different types of lasguns? I'm not debating that they don't accept the same power packs (I'm loathe to use Black Library books as canon, and am ignoring the instance in the Tanith series when they received powerpacks in the wrong size. But, nevertheless, how would troops equipped folding-stock lasguns or lascarbines fight differently than those with the full-sized lasguns? I'm betting the troops that want mobility and maneuverability will choose the lighter weapons. It probably wouldn't be enough to warrant representation in the game, though.

You're talking about Catachans in their little tiny Codex.

That was replaced when we saw the next IG book. And it's still not applicable in that regard.

Hey, you said that all Guard units are organized the same way. I brought up that the Catachans are not, but now its an invalid exception?

As for "organic armor or heavy artillery"--no. That's not how it works. The Krieg "Siege" regiments are one of the few that actively have artillery rolled within their organization. Most Regiments will have a complimentary Regiment founded at the same time that will commonly be fielded with them.

Rubbish, but it sounds like the sort of rubbish that Games Workshop, in its utter cluelessness about military affairs, would write.

Yeah...maybe you should try reading something other than simply the Codex before trying to call me wrong. Specifically: Imperial Armour 8 makes mention of the Raven Guard having to fight to get an entire regiment of Elysian Drop Troops for a surgical raid that could decapitate the potential warmaking ability of a Waagh!. In the end, they had to essentially 'trade' the services of the Raven Guard for the Elysians.

Interservice rivalries are interservice rivalries. They are not Imperial deployment doctrine. Also, commanders are notoriously concerned with keeping their assets, and if you ask ANY commander for one of his units, he will most likely kick and scream. Now, while I haven't read IA8, I have the feeling that the reason that the issue was an Imperial army commander not wanting to give up a regiment to another army, or possibly a stubborn Administratum puke who didn't want to change his Holy Paperwork or whatever that stated who the Elysian regiment belonged to. I'd place my money on the former, though; I know for a FACT I would hold out to get markers with a Space Marines chapter.

The Armageddon Ork Fighters were an example of a rare exception. Was the entire Steel Legion dropping down into the jungle?
No?
Huh. How about that. Rare exception.
And once again: Catachan Codex is inapplicable.

Sure, the Armageddon Ork Fighters are an exception. However, how many other worlds have self-taught Ork jungle hunters? Barring that, again, the Catachan codex stated multiple worlds that produce Jungle Fighters. Oh, and it doesn't matter that the Catachan codex was superseded by the Doctrine Guard Codex. Rulewise, absolutely, but we're not talking about rules. We're talking about fluff, and the main place to get Catachan fluff is...the Catachan codex.

"Units of jungle fighters or light infantry" are considered specialist regiments. They're deployed piecemeal to the front as needed, not all at once.

They are indeed considered specialist regiments. However, they are NOT deployed piecemeal as distinct units-of-action. There is not a single place in the Guard codex where it addresses anything at the platoon or company level (aside from hero fluff; if I'm wrong, please point it out.); any mention of a unit is about the regiment as a whole, not a fragment of a company. Space Marines are deployed piecemeal, in their Companies. There's something in one of the IA books about an Elysian "detachment", but I did not care. I looked at it, saw it was some sort of a foil to 'nids, and moved on.

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

However, by and large, Guard units, specialists included, are deployed in regimental groups. If we trust the Black Library books, ALL OF THEM feature a Guard unit, in many cases they are specialists (there's a Catachan book, a Tallaran book, and an Armored book, oh, and that brown-water-navy book) that are deployed as a single regiment.

Summary: Attack and Raid are not the same thing, and experience in one unit type will not necessarily translate well to another, because units operate in different manners.

Good thing I said nothing whatsoever about that huh?
The 'basic' Guard regiment is the Cadian example--which is what the Imperial Guard Codex represents. It's made up of hardened line infantry, who

Kanluwen wrote:
Not 'contradicts', but further explains. Training for the Guard isn't done overnight, nor is it done in a practical basis. It goes based off the need(as the Munitorum sees it) for specific things and if the world in question can provide it.

To go back to the Tanith example: the Imperial Governor, who was an off-worlder originally, praised the stealth and innate navigation abilities of the Tanith. The Munitorum, which was wanting to raise some Regiments from Tanith, provided the same organizational and equipment training to the Tanith as they would the Valhallans or the Catachans. The difference is that the Tanith already had the stealth and navigatory training.

Ok, but it still doesn't mean that they are trained and equipped and organized in the same way as the Mordian 217th, Cadian 42nd, Tallarn 9th or the Krieg 953rd, etc.

Catachans actually, if you'll recall correctly, were just described as eschewing the flak armor but instead wearing a jacket or vest packed with flak plates.
Kanak is a big who cares. They're mentioned once as an example of a 'barbarian' regiment using melee weapons and pistols and have yet to really be seen again.

Kanak is an example of many barbarian troops. Again it just goes to show that very few things are universal.

Except we're not. We're talking about fully fleshed out backgrounds and a kind of 'history' for these Chapters and how they field certain troops which differentiates them from the rest of the Astartes.

Which, in general, is honestly rather little, and could easily be done to *every* other faction.

And let's look at the US today versus the UK or Germany.
Not really too much difference there.

Look at NATO vs Russia then.

And again:
Codex: Blood Angels could have been done far better to differentiate it from Codex: Space Marines. The writer and the supervising staff is at fault for that issue, not necessarily the fluff for the book or the playerbase.

And yet is *way* more differentiated than its ever been, and still isn't all that different.

You do know that the "planetary Imperial Commander" is a representative of the Munitorum, right?

Only insofar as he's also a representative of the Administratum and other Imperial factions.

And again: so what? The Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, and several other Chapters regularly field Battle-Brothers in Scout Armour for operations to decapitate enemy leadership. Does that mean Commanders, etc should have a Scout Armour and Sniper Rifle, along with the option for orbital strikes as Heavy Support?

No, nor does it mean there really should be multiple IG books or SM books.

Which actually shows that you know diddly regarding the fluff.

I like how anytime you disagree with someone you whip this out, despite not exactly being correct in many of your arguments. You repeatedly take tiny inferences or BL sources to totally override years and decades of established original GW fluff. Thanks.

Kasrkin aren't "stormtroopers trained on Cadia". They're genetically augmented, decked out with gear the equivalent of Skittari(the first time 'Kasrkin' were mentioned, which was within the Eisenhorn books, they had full carapace armour that had built-in IFF transponders, full environmental gear, and hellguns with autosense locks preventing them from being used against the Kasrkin or anyone they tagged as 'friendly'), and are identified from the time that they're Whiteshields rather than just being the offspring of noble families or of slain Imperial officials. By the time Kasrkin are actually selected, they've been through combat and are full Guardsmen rather than simply children. Which brings me to Whiteshields...

So we've got a couple paragraphs in Eisenhorn that means I don't know anything about fluff apparently. I don't have the books in front of me, and haven't read them in years, however they were created as Cadian Stormtroopers game-wise and have always been portrayed as such. It's also not like Stormtroopers don't go through most/all of that or more and don't have identical equipment. Aside from the bit about genetic engineering, it sounds just like normal Stormtroopers.

Whiteshields are, simply put, leaps and bounds above of Conscripts/Trainees. They'd be, at least, on par with the 'standard' Guardsmen of most conscripted regiments. They're put into live fire exercises constantly, and are trained/taught by the Cadian troopers themselves.

Where is this coming from?

White Shields have always been the premier representation of Conscripts since Conscripts were introduced in 3E. In fact I can't recall a WD, codex, Chapter Approved, etc where conscripts were *ever* represented by anything *but* white shields.

Again: it's never really explicitly stated within the Codices. The novels, etc built up that imagery.

So, I don't know diddly about fluff, but stuff that is never stated, only vaguely implied at best is totally what the Unforgiven are about?

If you're going to try to use fluff justifications for the Guard having multiple codices?
Then yes.

That's a rather poor fluff justification, and could again still be easily applied to the Space Marines, or are they so hidebound, prideful, stupid and egotistical that they can't change roles as the situation demands of psycho-indoctrinated genetically engineered super soldiers whose lives are built on discipline and combat adaptiveness?

Could the Guard benefit from multiple codices? Sure.
Will it happen? Probably not.
Why? Because let's face it, unless the game itself is drastically altered, then Guard variants will ultimately filter back to the 'mechanized' variant.

Nobody is arguing for multiple IG books. Only using IG to show why a *need* for multiple loyalist marine books is silly.

Kanluwen wrote:
And let's look at the US today versus the UK or Germany.
Not really too much difference there.

I had to stop reading the post that cropped up when I was responding to your post responding to me when I read this.

OF COURSE there will be very little doctrinal difference between the US, UK, and German armies. They're all NATO forces.

Lets compare a NATO force to, oh, say....the Chinese. Or, I believe, to any country that employs/d the Soviet model. Its quite different. Unless, "guys with guns, tanks, and artillery" means "its all the same."

*sigh*

Or, if you want, a specific US division, such as the 101st, 82nd, 24th Mech, 10th Mountain, to a Chinese or Iranian division.

Edit: Ninja'd by Vak. His post, BTW, compliments mine nicely.

Edit2: I'm curious, though. How is a unit of Guard who rely on masses of bodies, attrition, and abundant heavy artillery fight the same as another unit of guardsmen who fly around the battlefield in skimmers, when all that makes the Blue Space Marines different from the Green Space Marines is the organization of...what, one, maybe two of their 10 Companies?

Mr Hyena wrote:To be honest; I feel its gotten to the point where it would be amazing to see Eldar/Necrons/Tau/Whatever become the next uberbroken list; as it will actually get more Xeno players for sure.

I'm getting sick of coming up reasons why my Inquisition would fight Space Marines.

Haven't Space Wolves and Inquisition actually engaged in open war? I think it was in SW codex. And BA of course are under scrutiny and some of their successors chapters have already been declared renegade. Clearly they are on their way to Heresy and pre-emptive actions are best...

Backfire wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:To be honest; I feel its gotten to the point where it would be amazing to see Eldar/Necrons/Tau/Whatever become the next uberbroken list; as it will actually get more Xeno players for sure.

I'm getting sick of coming up reasons why my Inquisition would fight Space Marines.

Haven't Space Wolves and Inquisition actually engaged in open war? I think it was in SW codex. And BA of course are under scrutiny and some of their successors chapters have already been declared renegade. Clearly they are on their way to Heresy and pre-emptive actions are best...

Spess Mehreenz should have literally been purged after the Heresy. Not even kidding. They're ticking timebombs and their political independence from the Imperium make them a liability to it.

Ogiwan wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually yes. All lasguns are the same. The 'Triplex pattern' was basically a joke. Every pattern of lasgun has 'variable fire settings'.

Wait, so, all lasguns are the same, even though there are different types of lasguns? I'm not debating that they don't accept the same power packs (I'm loathe to use Black Library books as canon, and am ignoring the instance in the Tanith series when they received powerpacks in the wrong size. But, nevertheless, how would troops equipped folding-stock lasguns or lascarbines fight differently than those with the full-sized lasguns? I'm betting the troops that want mobility and maneuverability will choose the lighter weapons. It probably wouldn't be enough to warrant representation in the game, though.

Folding-stock lasguns/lascarbines are mainly issued to mechanized troops. In-game terms they really wouldn't do anything--maybe a few of them would pack higher energy capacity cells, etc. But that's where the 'hotshot' cells were supposed to be implemented, and prior to Cruddace they'd been moving away from 'stormtroopers=hotshot lasguns' and more towards 'hellguns' being their own unique piece of equipment.

You're talking about Catachans in their little tiny Codex.

That was replaced when we saw the next IG book. And it's still not applicable in that regard.

Hey, you said that all Guard units are organized the same way. I brought up that the Catachans are not, but now its an invalid exception?

Their fluff's been altered since then, which is why I say it's 'invalid'. You'll also note that I didn't say it's an 'exception' and that I've constantly mentioned 'Specialist Regiments'...
Anyways: Catachans have a minor divergence in terms of their organization, but not enough to really make them worth an entirely new Codex.

Especially not with how the Codex is organized now, don't you think?
Catachans were really always just 'veterans who fight well in jungles'. Hardened Veteran options work well here.

As for "organic armor or heavy artillery"--no. That's not how it works. The Krieg "Siege" regiments are one of the few that actively have artillery rolled within their organization. Most Regiments will have a complimentary Regiment founded at the same time that will commonly be fielded with them.

Rubbish, but it sounds like the sort of rubbish that Games Workshop, in its utter cluelessness about military affairs, would write.

I hate to say it but: so what? This isn't meant to be 'real life' or you wouldn't have people swinging swords at each other while using jetpacks.
Simply put, the Imperial Guard at large isn't meant to operate like a modern day force. They're meant to operate as a meatshield for the Imperium. It's reflected in their overall training, equipment, etc.

Yeah...maybe you should try reading something other than simply the Codex before trying to call me wrong. Specifically: Imperial Armour 8 makes mention of the Raven Guard having to fight to get an entire regiment of Elysian Drop Troops for a surgical raid that could decapitate the potential warmaking ability of a Waagh!. In the end, they had to essentially 'trade' the services of the Raven Guard for the Elysians.

Interservice rivalries are interservice rivalries. They are not Imperial deployment doctrine. Also, commanders are notoriously concerned with keeping their assets, and if you ask ANY commander for one of his units, he will most likely kick and scream. Now, while I haven't read IA8, I have the feeling that the reason that the issue was an Imperial army commander not wanting to give up a regiment to another army, or possibly a stubborn Administratum puke who didn't want to change his Holy Paperwork or whatever that stated who the Elysian regiment belonged to. I'd place my money on the former, though; I know for a FACT I would hold out to get markers with a Space Marines chapter.

Actually, it was the Ecclesiarchy pressuring the Munitorum. They wanted the 181st Elysian to be operated as line infantry, and had the backing of Inquisitors to go with their temper-tantrum.

And if there wasn't a Shrine World in the mix, the request would have been granted simply because when an Astartes says 'Give me X Guard Regiment and I'll decapitate this entire Waagh' they're usually met with 'Do you want Y and Z Regiments too?'.

The Armageddon Ork Fighters were an example of a rare exception. Was the entire Steel Legion dropping down into the jungle?
No?
Huh. How about that. Rare exception.
And once again: Catachan Codex is inapplicable.

Sure, the Armageddon Ork Fighters are an exception. However, how many other worlds have self-taught Ork jungle hunters? Barring that, again, the Catachan codex stated multiple worlds that produce Jungle Fighters. Oh, and it doesn't matter that the Catachan codex was superseded by the Doctrine Guard Codex. Rulewise, absolutely, but we're not talking about rules. We're talking about fluff, and the main place to get Catachan fluff is...the Catachan codex.

Actually, there's other places to get Catachan fluff. Like the three characters, a few novels, etc...

Catachan Codex is out of print and completely irrelevant to this discussion . So stop bringing it up.

"Units of jungle fighters or light infantry" are considered specialist regiments. They're deployed piecemeal to the front as needed, not all at once.

They are indeed considered specialist regiments. However, they are NOT deployed piecemeal as distinct units-of-action. There is not a single place in the Guard codex where it addresses anything at the platoon or company level (aside from hero fluff; if I'm wrong, please point it out.); any mention of a unit is about the regiment as a whole, not a fragment of a company. Space Marines are deployed piecemeal, in their Companies. There's something in one of the IA books about an Elysian "detachment", but I did not care. I looked at it, saw it was some sort of a foil to 'nids, and moved on.

Detachment 99 is a bit of an oddity in that it's an Inquisitorial asset, not a standard Guard asset.

However, I didn't say it was 'at the platoon or company level'. You mostly see it in terms of Veteran units like...what's that? Stormtrooper regiments? Ogryn regiments?

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

Actually, it does. At most, you'll see Chimeras and maybe Sentinels within a Mechanized Regiment's purview. However, sometimes even Sentinels are fielded as their own Regiment and divvied up.
Armour is split up, as is artillery. The reason, as flimsy as it may be, is simply so that if a Guard infantry commander goes renegade--he doesn't take an armoured company with him.

However, by and large, Guard units, specialists included, are deployed in regimental groups. If we trust the Black Library books, ALL OF THEM feature a Guard unit, in many cases they are specialists (there's a Catachan book, a Tallarn book, and an Armored book, oh, and that brown-water-navy book) that are deployed as a single regiment.

The 'armored book' actually had the armored unit deployed as an attachment to a mechanized regiment.

Summary: Attack and Raid are not the same thing, and experience in one unit type will not necessarily translate well to another, because units operate in different manners.

Good thing I said nothing whatsoever about that huh?
The 'basic' Guard regiment is the Cadian example--which is what the Imperial Guard Codex represents. It's made up of hardened line infantry, who

It really did end that abruptly. I had to go back and check the original post.

You are missing my point. Your position is that all Guard units function similar. My story shows how two types of units that at a quick glance are somewhat similar are, in fact, drastically different.

Backfire wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:
You wait to put in totally new units until the next full release (edition of the game). Alternatively, you publish the rules for the unit on the web or *gasp* put them in the box.

And whadda ya know, this is what FW does, and majority of the playerbase ignores it.

VoidAngel wrote:
So, if you know you are going down to your FLGS this weekend, how hard is it to consult the website beforehand? *shrug*

Right, I consult the website, seeing that Land Raider Achilles is now legal for all Marine lists, so I have to put in more anti-tank, except that the latest update changed the points costs, so I have to refigure it all again. No thank you.

So, what I am hearing is, you're lazy - and you think everyone else is, too.

As for Forgeworld, I've never seen or played someone that refused a game because of alternate models or rules. You just don't spring it on them. "Surprise! I'm fielding a titan!" That would be the only possible scenario in which you'd get a refusal. Most people love to see that stuff.

Mr Hyena wrote:To be honest; I feel its gotten to the point where it would be amazing to see Eldar/Necrons/Tau/Whatever become the next uberbroken list; as it will actually get more Xeno players for sure.

I'm getting sick of coming up reasons why my Inquisition would fight Space Marines.

I honestly don't know about that (creation of more xenos players). DE seems capable of some real powerhouse builds, but I only know two 'new' players picking up the codex.

Guys, guys, GUYS. Please take the IG fluff-war to an appropriate thread. That isn't what this thread is about.

Thanks!

VoidAngel wrote:
So, what I am hearing is, you're lazy - and you think everyone else is, too.

It's a fact of life. People are lazy, and they will whine if things are not presented to them on silver platter, on a format which is simple and easy to digest. They don't want to gather information on small pieces.

VoidAngel wrote:
As for Forgeworld, I've never seen or played someone that refused a game because of alternate models or rules. You just don't spring it on them. "Surprise! I'm fielding a titan!" That would be the only possible scenario in which you'd get a refusal. Most people love to see that stuff.

The point is rather that very few people actually buy or use them, despite them being easily available on, you know, Internets.

Kanluwen wrote:

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

Actually, it does. At most, you'll see Chimeras and maybe Sentinels within a Mechanized Regiment's purview. However, sometimes even Sentinels are fielded as their own Regiment and divvied up.
Armour is split up, as is artillery. The reason, as flimsy as it may be, is simply so that if a Guard infantry commander goes renegade--he doesn't take an armoured company with him.

You still get armored regiments deployed as whole armored regiments, not given away piecemeal to other regiments. Within one theatre of action you might occasionally have them deployed on a company level or as individual pieces, supporting the infantry regiments present, but they're still deployed to that theatre on a regimental level.

And no, my position is not that 'all Guard units function similar'. My position is 'all the major Guard archetypes can feasibly be represented by the Codex'. The Elysians, Krieg, etc are a rarity within the Imperium at large.

And "these space marines like plasma weapons but not psykers, and these field a slightly above average number of terminators" can't be represented by a single codex even better than Guard can? Guard have the most justification to get multiple codices, that's not necessarily to say that they have enough justification (even though they have more than enough to at least have each broad archetype covered by its own codex). Space Marines, in contrast, don't have even that.

Backfire wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:
So, what I am hearing is, you're lazy - and you think everyone else is, too.

It's a fact of life. People are lazy, and they will whine if things are not presented to them on silver platter, on a format which is simple and easy to digest. They don't want to gather information on small pieces.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't argue with that...but in that case, I'd just shrug and ask if they wanted to play anyway. It's a game, I'm fine with alternate/previous rules.

VoidAngel wrote:
As for Forgeworld, I've never seen or played someone that refused a game because of alternate models or rules. You just don't spring it on them. "Surprise! I'm fielding a titan!" That would be the only possible scenario in which you'd get a refusal. Most people love to see that stuff.

The point is rather that very few people actually buy or use them, despite them being easily available on, you know, Internets.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's because the stuff is priced like it's made of freaking uranium, and the quality is for shiite. Oh, and then you pay shipping that would buy you a whole other GW kit...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

Actually, it does. At most, you'll see Chimeras and maybe Sentinels within a Mechanized Regiment's purview. However, sometimes even Sentinels are fielded as their own Regiment and divvied up.
Armour is split up, as is artillery. The reason, as flimsy as it may be, is simply so that if a Guard infantry commander goes renegade--he doesn't take an armoured company with him.

You still get armored regiments deployed as whole armored regiments, not given away piecemeal to other regiments. Within one theatre of action you might occasionally have them deployed on a company level or as individual pieces, supporting the infantry regiments present, but they're still deployed to that theatre on a regimental level.

Yes, within an entire theater of action.
40k does not represent that. Apocalypse does a better job representing it, but even then it really represents a larger 'chunk' of battlelines than the rest does.

40k, at best, represents a "small-scale skirmish". Regimental deployment is beyond the scope of 40k. At best, we're seeing a Company fielded. Not the entire Regiment.

And no, my position is not that 'all Guard units function similar'. My position is 'all the major Guard archetypes can feasibly be represented by the Codex'. The Elysians, Krieg, etc are a rarity within the Imperium at large.

And "these space marines like plasma weapons but not psykers, and these field a slightly above average number of terminators" can't be represented by a single codex even better than Guard can?

Could it? Probably. But that doesn't mean it will be represented well. Look at the Chaos Marines book or the Daemon book.

Guard have the most justification to get multiple codices, that's not necessarily to say that they have enough justification (even though they have more than enough to at least have each broad archetype covered by its own codex). Space Marines, in contrast, don't have even that.

And again: they really don't have the 'most justification'. Not without the game framework itself being radically altered.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

Actually, it does. At most, you'll see Chimeras and maybe Sentinels within a Mechanized Regiment's purview. However, sometimes even Sentinels are fielded as their own Regiment and divvied up.
Armour is split up, as is artillery. The reason, as flimsy as it may be, is simply so that if a Guard infantry commander goes renegade--he doesn't take an armoured company with him.

You still get armored regiments deployed as whole armored regiments, not given away piecemeal to other regiments. Within one theatre of action you might occasionally have them deployed on a company level or as individual pieces, supporting the infantry regiments present, but they're still deployed to that theatre on a regimental level.

Yes, within an entire theater of action.
40k does not represent that. Apocalypse does a better job representing it, but even then it really represents a larger 'chunk' of battlelines than the rest does.

40k, at best, represents a "small-scale skirmish". Regimental deployment is beyond the scope of 40k. At best, we're seeing a Company fielded. Not the entire Regiment.

Right. Which has exactly nothing to do with organization and deployment in fluff terms. Which is what you were talking about.

And no, my position is not that 'all Guard units function similar'. My position is 'all the major Guard archetypes can feasibly be represented by the Codex'. The Elysians, Krieg, etc are a rarity within the Imperium at large.

And "these space marines like plasma weapons but not psykers, and these field a slightly above average number of terminators" can't be represented by a single codex even better than Guard can?

Could it? Probably. But that doesn't mean it will be represented well. Look at the Chaos Marines book or the Daemon book.

Guard have the most justification to get multiple codices, that's not necessarily to say that they have enough justification (even though they have more than enough to at least have each broad archetype covered by its own codex). Space Marines, in contrast, don't have even that.

And again: they really don't have the 'most justification'. Not without the game framework itself being radically altered.

So the legions of trillions of humans from every conceivable culture, with examples that embody every military paradigm that has ever been used and then some, have less justification to have multiple codices covering broad categories of said paradigms than the tiny handful of mutants with identical equipment, who all follow a single ten thousand year old paradigm, and see deviating from that paradigm as heresy, with the differences between their chapters amounting to trivial variations in which of the pieces of equipment they all use they slightly prefer using above all the other equipment they also still use anyways?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Now, SOME Guard units are attached to other Guard units. However, in my readings, these are specifically armored, mechanized, or artillery detachments to bolster units that do not have them. This, however, does not preclude units from having their own organic armor, mech, or artillery. It also does not preclude arty, armored, or mech units from being concentrated and used en masse.

Actually, it does. At most, you'll see Chimeras and maybe Sentinels within a Mechanized Regiment's purview. However, sometimes even Sentinels are fielded as their own Regiment and divvied up.
Armour is split up, as is artillery. The reason, as flimsy as it may be, is simply so that if a Guard infantry commander goes renegade--he doesn't take an armoured company with him.

You still get armored regiments deployed as whole armored regiments, not given away piecemeal to other regiments. Within one theatre of action you might occasionally have them deployed on a company level or as individual pieces, supporting the infantry regiments present, but they're still deployed to that theatre on a regimental level.

Yes, within an entire theater of action.
40k does not represent that. Apocalypse does a better job representing it, but even then it really represents a larger 'chunk' of battlelines than the rest does.

40k, at best, represents a "small-scale skirmish". Regimental deployment is beyond the scope of 40k. At best, we're seeing a Company fielded. Not the entire Regiment.

Right. Which has exactly nothing to do with organization and deployment in fluff terms. Which is what you were talking about.

Actually, it does. Because armoured regiments aren't committed to skirmishes 'en masse'. A few squadrons are diverted, maybe a platoon if the footsloggers are really lucky.

The same issue crops up with armies like the Elysian Drop Troops(D-99 excepted); who are really a 'broad picture' kind of army that would be deployed across an entire front not one specific part.

And no, my position is not that 'all Guard units function similar'. My position is 'all the major Guard archetypes can feasibly be represented by the Codex'. The Elysians, Krieg, etc are a rarity within the Imperium at large.

And "these space marines like plasma weapons but not psykers, and these field a slightly above average number of terminators" can't be represented by a single codex even better than Guard can?

Could it? Probably. But that doesn't mean it will be represented well. Look at the Chaos Marines book or the Daemon book.

Guard have the most justification to get multiple codices, that's not necessarily to say that they have enough justification (even though they have more than enough to at least have each broad archetype covered by its own codex). Space Marines, in contrast, don't have even that.

And again: they really don't have the 'most justification'. Not without the game framework itself being radically altered.

So the legions of trillions of humans from every conceivable culture, with examples that embody every military paradigm that has ever been used and then some, have less justification to have multiple codices covering broad categories of said paradigms than the tiny handful of mutants with identical equipment, who all follow a single ten thousand year old paradigm, and see deviating from that paradigm as heresy, with the differences between their chapters amounting to trivial variations in which of the pieces of equipment they all use they slightly prefer using above all the other equipment they also still use anyways?

Lets face it, it's pretty silly to be arguing that half a dozen small fighting bands that specialize is shock assault, ranging in size from a battallion to a brigade/regiment in modern terms, sharing 95% of the same units & wargear, **NEED** their own books apparently to be played correctly and fluffily, apparently way more than the **millions** of divisional sized fighting groups from a huge array of cultures, organizations, technology levels and training standards that hail from hundreds of thousands of different worlds and engage in every aspect of planetary based warfare imagineable.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets face it, it's pretty silly to be arguing that half a dozen small fighting bands that specialize is shock assault, ranging in size from a battallion to a brigade/regiment in modern terms, sharing 95% of the same units & wargear, **NEED** their own books apparently to be played correctly and fluffily, apparently way more than the **millions** of divisional sized fighting groups from a huge array of cultures, organizations, technology levels and training standards that hail from hundreds of thousands of different worlds and engage in every aspect of planetary based warfare imaginable.

And again, you're assuming that every one of those cultures, organizations, and technology levels are represented.
And quite frankly, that assumption is ridiculous. Many worlds contribute in such a way that they will never actively be deployed en masse, but will instead be broken up and deployed as necessary. The Tallarn, in most cases, are not deployed 'en masse'. But they are deployed in enough strength that they can operate by themselves and they usually will have some form of specialized support(such as the Mukaali Riders or modified Sentinels for operating in the desert) operating alongside them.

As for training standards: they all have a basic training regimen set forth by the Munitorum. Anything more is learned along the way or learned as necessitated by the Munitorum.

In regards to the Marines:
If they're actually written in a good enough manner in terms of the fluff and gameplay, you'd see a far better quality of game when it comes to the Marines and how they're played.

But let's face it: neither of those are likely to happen. Nor will the other thing that would necessitate 'balancing' the number of Marine codices which, simply put, is people actually playing armies for fluff reasons rather than playing for competitive reasons.

Kilkrazy wrote:The SM players would have to play with themselves.

(Apologies to Mr Meatballs, I just couldn't resist, and you didn't actually say it)
---
I've never quite understood the complaint that the number of space marine players betrays the fluff behind the army. Why should the number of player correspond to the number of the race in the fluff? Hell, if we really wanted the two numbers to correlate, everyone would play Orks and IG. The States would get two Daemon players, a Necron player, a few Eldar/Dark Eldar players, a handful of Chaos Players who could play once a year, and a contingent of fifty Tyranid players who all stuck together and moved around the country.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, it does. Because armoured regiments aren't committed to skirmishes 'en masse'. A few squadrons are diverted, maybe a platoon if the footsloggers are really lucky.

Except fluffwise, the kind of bizarre isolated skirmishes between almost perfectly balanced forces that make up the tabletop game would be pretty rare. An artillery regiment would always be fielded together, well behind the front lines (as in, several rooms behind the table the game takes place on), while an armored regiment would operate at the lowest on a company level (which is... nine Leman Russes or three Baneblades, isn't it? I can't recall the specifics there). But this is really ignoring the actual debate, as the difference between regiments isn't "this one likes to use more terminators Leman Russes in its first company, and this one like to use scouts ratlings in its second company", it's "these regiments are trained to operate in jungles, and these are mechanized infantry (the APCs used by a regiment being part of that regiment), and these operate with only light ground vehicles and gunship support, etc".

The same issue crops up with armies like the Elysian Drop Troops(D-99 excepted); who are really a 'broad picture' kind of army that would be deployed across an entire front not one specific part.

Isn't the whole point of the Elysians that they're deployed from the air, with gunship support? So anywhere they show up, they're showing up because the only/most convenient way in was aerial deployment, which precludes non-elysian units from also showing up in that engagement.

1) Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not 'follow a single ten thousand year old paradigm' in the sense that you're meaning. Nor do they consider their deviations as heresy. So that part is wrong.
The 'differences between their chapters' are not necessarily as simple as which piece of equipment they all use.

The Raven Guard, for example, field their Scouts in a way that is different than how the Iron Hands or the Ultramarines would field them, while the Dark Angels will use their Devastator Squads in a way that is not necessarily the same as how the Salamanders would. There's a lot more fluffwise going on, but again the issue is tabletop representation.
You can't very well have a 'balanced' game where a Raven Guard player has already assassinated the enemy commander before the battle even begins or the Dark Angels have kidnapped a member of the Fallen from within the midst of an enemy army and fled before the rest of the Imperium comes crashing down on that enemy army.

That's not a compelling refutation of "the only differences are a chapter slightly favoring one of the things that every chapter uses, but not to the exclusion of all the other things that they also all use."

2) The 'legions of trillions of humans from every conceivable culture' do not necessarily exist in such a way that they are all drawn upon for Imperial Guard regiments. Many worlds cannot contribute enough for a full Founding of the Imperial Guard, but instead contribute in production of arms, serve as a training ground for the Guard, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Lets face it, it's pretty silly to be arguing that half a dozen small fighting bands that specialize is shock assault, ranging in size from a battallion to a brigade/regiment in modern terms, sharing 95% of the same units & wargear, **NEED** their own books apparently to be played correctly and fluffily, apparently way more than the **millions** of divisional sized fighting groups from a huge array of cultures, organizations, technology levels and training standards that hail from hundreds of thousands of different worlds and engage in every aspect of planetary based warfare imaginable.

And again, you're assuming that every one of those cultures, organizations, and technology levels are represented.
And quite frankly, that assumption is ridiculous. Many worlds contribute in such a way that they will never actively be deployed en masse, but will instead be broken up and deployed as necessary. The Tallarn, in most cases, are not deployed 'en masse'. But they are deployed in enough strength that they can operate by themselves and they usually will have some form of specialized support(such as the Mukaali Riders or modified Sentinels for operating in the desert) operating alongside them.

As for training standards: they all have a basic training regimen set forth by the Munitorum. Anything more is learned along the way or learned as necessitated by the Munitorum.

They're recruited entirely from the local PDF, a locally trained and equipped force. Every world that maintains its own military force is obligated to regularly provide something on the order of the top ten percent of it (the codex says annually and no less than 10%, but that's a bit unworkable (so every year the PDF is increased by at least 10%, plus enough to replace those killed in training accidents or who reach retirement age, and can actually handle training and supplying all these troops?) and doesn't really mesh well with the fluff), and considering a regiment is generally placed in the low thousands of soldiers (regiments numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands are allegedly found, but that's another "really? they don't bother keeping them at reasonable logistical levels, and just fielding a few dozen of them?" sort of thing) I have a hard time seeing many planets being unable to provide at least one regiment.

In regards to the Marines:
If they're actually written in a good enough manner in terms of the fluff and gameplay, you'd see a far better quality of game when it comes to the Marines and how they're played.

But let's face it: neither of those are likely to happen. Nor will the other thing that would necessitate 'balancing' the number of Marine codices which, simply put, is people actually playing armies for fluff reasons rather than playing for competitive reasons.

There is absolutely no good reason for the smallest, most insignificant faction in the galaxy to make up fully half of all the codices. It could all be done with a single codex, with a handful of global variation rules. It's ridiculous that there are, I am willing to bet, many more Space Marine models than there are Space Marines in the fluff. There are less than one million of them at any point, and the differences between chapters is much, much less than the difference between even two very similar Guard regiments. So naturally they get a half dozen superfluous codices on top of the main one (which contains enough special rules to tailor it to several specific chapters already), while the Guard get a single one that entirely lacks any variant rules aside from a couple of special characters with extremely limited effects, and every other codex lacks even that.

Oh give it a rest already. You're playing the wrong game. Sell your models and buy some more magic cards or something. Jeeeebus, anyone that complains about Space Marines THIS much in THIS game is...just not playing with a full deck of cards. No pun intended.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, it does. Because armoured regiments aren't committed to skirmishes 'en masse'. A few squadrons are diverted, maybe a platoon if the footsloggers are really lucky.

Except fluffwise, the kind of bizarre isolated skirmishes between almost perfectly balanced forces that make up the tabletop game would be pretty rare. An artillery regiment would always be fielded together, well behind the front lines (as in, several rooms behind the table the game takes place on), while an armored regiment would operate at the lowest on a company level (which is... nine Leman Russes or three Baneblades, isn't it? I can't recall the specifics there). But this is really ignoring the actual debate, as the difference between regiments isn't "this one likes to use more terminators Leman Russes in its first company, and this one like to use scouts ratlings in its second company", it's "these regiments are trained to operate in jungles, and these are mechanized infantry (the APCs used by a regiment being part of that regiment), and these operate with only light ground vehicles and gunship support, etc".

Artillery Regiments are usually fielded alongside Armour Regiments.

And by the way: Your Ratlings/Leman Russ example doesn't really work. Ratlings are abhuman auxiliaries which are assigned to most regiments as support staff, not combat staff.

The same issue crops up with armies like the Elysian Drop Troops(D-99 excepted); who are really a 'broad picture' kind of army that would be deployed across an entire front not one specific part.

Isn't the whole point of the Elysians that they're deployed from the air, with gunship support? So anywhere they show up, they're showing up because the only/most convenient way in was aerial deployment, which precludes non-elysian units from also showing up in that engagement.

The whole point of the Elysians is that they're airmobile. They can operate like archetypical 'airborne' forces in that they can deploy by grav-chute.

They're also, much like the aforementioned airmobile/airborne forces, used as a 'vanguard' force to take and hold objectives while the main force then breaks through to relieve and secure them.

1) Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not 'follow a single ten thousand year old paradigm' in the sense that you're meaning. Nor do they consider their deviations as heresy. So that part is wrong.
The 'differences between their chapters' are not necessarily as simple as which piece of equipment they all use.

The Raven Guard, for example, field their Scouts in a way that is different than how the Iron Hands or the Ultramarines would field them, while the Dark Angels will use their Devastator Squads in a way that is not necessarily the same as how the Salamanders would. There's a lot more fluffwise going on, but again the issue is tabletop representation.
You can't very well have a 'balanced' game where a Raven Guard player has already assassinated the enemy commander before the battle even begins or the Dark Angels have kidnapped a member of the Fallen from within the midst of an enemy army and fled before the rest of the Imperium comes crashing down on that enemy army.

That's not a compelling refutation of "the only differences are a chapter slightly favoring one of the things that every chapter uses, but not to the exclusion of all the other things that they also all use."

Not sure what you really want as a 'compelling refutation'.

2) The 'legions of trillions of humans from every conceivable culture' do not necessarily exist in such a way that they are all drawn upon for Imperial Guard regiments. Many worlds cannot contribute enough for a full Founding of the Imperial Guard, but instead contribute in production of arms, serve as a training ground for the Guard, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Lets face it, it's pretty silly to be arguing that half a dozen small fighting bands that specialize is shock assault, ranging in size from a battallion to a brigade/regiment in modern terms, sharing 95% of the same units & wargear, **NEED** their own books apparently to be played correctly and fluffily, apparently way more than the **millions** of divisional sized fighting groups from a huge array of cultures, organizations, technology levels and training standards that hail from hundreds of thousands of different worlds and engage in every aspect of planetary based warfare imaginable.

And again, you're assuming that every one of those cultures, organizations, and technology levels are represented.
And quite frankly, that assumption is ridiculous. Many worlds contribute in such a way that they will never actively be deployed en masse, but will instead be broken up and deployed as necessary. The Tallarn, in most cases, are not deployed 'en masse'. But they are deployed in enough strength that they can operate by themselves and they usually will have some form of specialized support(such as the Mukaali Riders or modified Sentinels for operating in the desert) operating alongside them.

As for training standards: they all have a basic training regimen set forth by the Munitorum. Anything more is learned along the way or learned as necessitated by the Munitorum.

They're recruited entirely from the local PDF, a locally trained and equipped force. Every world that maintains its own military force is obligated to regularly provide something on the order of the top ten percent of it (the codex says annually and no less than 10%, but that's a bit unworkable (so every year the PDF is increased by at least 10%, plus enough to replace those killed in training accidents or who reach retirement age, and can actually handle training and supplying all these troops?) and doesn't really mesh well with the fluff), and considering a regiment is generally placed in the low thousands of soldiers (regiments numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands are allegedly found, but that's another "really? they don't bother keeping them at reasonable logistical levels, and just fielding a few dozen of them?" sort of thing) I have a hard time seeing many planets being unable to provide at least one regiment.

This is actually wrong. Guard Regiments are founded separately from the PDF, for the most part. That 'top 10 percent' of the PDF? They will likely make it in as NCOs or commissioned officers depending on their experience levels.

In regards to the Marines:
If they're actually written in a good enough manner in terms of the fluff and gameplay, you'd see a far better quality of game when it comes to the Marines and how they're played.

But let's face it: neither of those are likely to happen. Nor will the other thing that would necessitate 'balancing' the number of Marine codices which, simply put, is people actually playing armies for fluff reasons rather than playing for competitive reasons.

There is absolutely no good reason for the smallest, most insignificant faction in the galaxy to make up fully half of all the codices. It could all be done with a single codex, with a handful of global variation rules. It's ridiculous that there are, I am willing to bet, many more Space Marine models than there are Space Marines in the fluff. There are less than one million of them at any point, and the differences between chapters is much, much less than the difference between even two very similar Guard regiments. So naturally they get a half dozen superfluous codices on top of the main one (which contains enough special rules to tailor it to several specific chapters already), while the Guard get a single one that entirely lacks any variant rules aside from a couple of special characters with extremely limited effects, and every other codex lacks even that.

And you're actually missing something important.

While the Imperial Guard is scattered throughout the galaxy and occasionally withdrawn from rotation to be replenished, rearmed, etc--- the Astartes are constantly at war. They don't need to rest, they don't 'muster out' like Guardsmen, and they don't know anything besides war. When it comes to the Astartes representation in warzones--it will actually be higher than Guard when it comes to the time spent active.

That said, there is always that 1 kid who is extremely dedicated to painting his models to a high quality, have great manners, is very mature, started with Tau or some other underpowered Xenos faction and plays with stoic dignity against cheese Blood Angels. That kid is a prodigy, going against the grain, that kid is a hero. 1 in a hundred (the rest decided to start 40k with space marines) REMEMBER THIS KID. He should be praised.

This is actually wrong. Guard Regiments are founded separately from the PDF, for the most part. That 'top 10 percent' of the PDF? They will likely make it in as NCOs or commissioned officers depending on their experience levels.

From C:IG 3.5E "When a tithe is taken as troops, it soldiers will be recruited in the same way the Planetary Defence Forces are recruited, Sometimes the regiments raised will be identical, the tithe being drawn from the PDF". Top 10% could mean the top performers in training or physical fitness or war games results or any number of other things.

I remember the 10% of the PDF thing, just can't remember from where exactly.

While the Imperial Guard is scattered throughout the galaxy and occasionally withdrawn from rotation to be replenished, rearmed, etc--- the Astartes are constantly at war

Not all, the codecies and BL books are replete with examples of Regiments being raised and re-fielded until destruction. In fact the codecies say that they almost never are demobilized and sent home. The Astartes also are not everywhere by any means, and where they are they are generally *very* few in number, they are far more scattered than the IG is.

That said, the Space Marines are a non-entity in the greater 40k strategic view. They represent the tiniest fraction of the forces available in the tiny fraction of the Imperiums conflicts that they enter. Even a company of SM's needs rest and refit, if for nothing else than ammunition, repairs, and medical care. They spend a *lot* of time in Travel, a *lot* of time training, and often they spend quite a bit of time on their homeworld doing various things (preparing for campaigns, learning, administrating, training, etc).

They aren't in the thick of battle all day every day, that's pure fantasy.


However, even assuming you are right and the IG take a ton of time off and the SM's spend practically all their time fighting, lets look at this numbers wise and see what's by far the more important factor.

The IG codex states there are billions of IG regiments.

Assuming an IG regiment size of 5000 troops (lowball given that the Cadian 8th that is presented as a typical organization is 8,000) and plural "billions" to mean just *2* billion, we get about 10,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen (Ten Trillion)

That means 10,000,000 (ten million) guardsmen for each Space Marine.

Even if we take the SM's oft quoted 10 or a Dozen normal troops for every Marine (assuming this is a straight up man for man exchange ratio and not already taking into account greater SM mobility and command capability that we see on the table is closer to 3-4 normal troops for 1 SM), using the latter number of 12, if doing a straight up comparision between the entirety of the Astartes and the entirety of the IG in terms of fighting strength and galactic relevance, the IG could sustain losses in excess of ten, a hundred, a thousand, or even ten thousand times that ratio (assuming they sustain casualties all out of whack with even SM fluff due to apparently incomparable SM strategic genius and SM mobility) with each Space Marine slaying 120,000 guardsmen (each SM killing 25 regiments of Imperial Guardsmen), and still wipe out the Space Marines with almost no realistic decrease in fighting strength. (120,000,000,000-120 Billion IG casualties, about 1.25% of the Imperial Guard's manpower using the numbers above).

Even minimizing the IG's strength given the available numbers (using the minimum value of "billions" and barebones sized regiments) and grossly overexaggerating the SM's strenghts out of all proportion even by Mat Ward's standards, looking at the numbers the SM's simply are a non-factor.


Using the newest C:SM ratio of 12 for 1 (again assuming this isn't already taking into account force multipliers, although It makes more sense within the actual tabletop game if it does) against a more typical realistic 8,000 strong IG regiment, the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes 1,000 Chapters is equal to about 1,500 Imperial Guard regiments, or about 0.000075% of IG fighting strength (which by itself is the tiniest small fraction of simple yearly recruitment variation) assuming only *2* billion regiments). If you want to include Astartes fleet and the tens of thouands of chapter serfs in each chapter needed to crew SM vessels and other functions, in any realistic comparison at this level the IN will become involved (while the IN and IG are different forces, they are both part of the Munitorum and united under *its* command) as well unless you assume everything takes on a world where all these IG regiments just apparently simply happen to exist in a vacuum.

By the ratios given in the SM codex's (10/12 for 1) the entirety of the Astartes would have failed retaking Vraks, as the IG took 17 million in simply casualties while taking back the planet, with SM's unwilling even to commit at the beginning and only engaging for extremely limited amounts of time and very specified objectives due to the extensiveness of the orbital defense network and ground fortifications.


The SM fluff as a result sorta stops working on several levels when looked at i this light. On the one hand, they are portrayed as being worth 10-12 normal human troops by the codex fluff when it directly addresses that issue (not sure if this already takes into account force multipliers like speed and mass deep strike ability, which would make it fit closer to how the game plays). This ratio would make it so that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes would likely have perished had it been only SM's fighting the relative sideshow of the Siege of Vraks (and using those numbers, it makes an Astartes Chapter worth about 2-3 IG Regiments, or in other words a completely negligible proportion of the Imperium's military might).

In this light, it's hard to take the SM's seriously as a galactically powerful force, rather than as mythical warriors whose legend means more than their actual actions.

Hey, guys, the stop the IG hate thread is over that way ==>

We're here to complain about SPESS MUHREENS