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Releasing all the codices at once would be impractical for a publicly traded company. GW needs to show an increase in profits every quarter, if there's only a codex related rush of buying every few years when they do a new set of books, then they get screwed on the market.

Come to think, I have to wonder why the variant SM codices are so popular at GW, as mentioned above, anybody with a space marine army that has a custom paint job and insignia can play pretty much any SM variant for a minimal cost. Those can't produce nearly as much in the way of sales as say, the most recent DE release.

sourclams wrote:

SumYungGui wrote:The fluff isn't the only disincentive. Why buy a Xeno army knowing you have a fair chance of going more years than fingers one one hand without any sort of update, FAQ, internet update, model release, sideways look or second thought from GW when you can buy another pack of dudes with power armor, bolters and chain swords and get your rules fixed every few months for the cost of a new codex? It's really not a balanced decision and many people just take the path of least resistance to the goal of winning all the time.

This.

My buddy has a rather extensive, fully painted Marine collection that have seen a lot of play as C:SM and SW. If he wanted, he could go BT or BA easily.

No change in paint scheme required, maybe a swap in wargear, but as long as you've got Marines, you've got the baseline off of which to play whatever you want.

Tau can't do that. Nor Necrons, nor any other xenos race unless you're willing to do extensive modifications or counts-as work.

GW don't make lots of SM codexes to accommodate players in not buying new armies.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture.

Shows how little you actually know regarding the Guard.

The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

But they are actually rare and due to their specialist nature, highly valued and split amongst various commands. At most, an Imperial 'army' will have access to a few platoons worth of those regiments. They're not necessarily fielded en masse, but are fielded as a kind of 'leveler' when their skills are necessitated by the situation at hand.

An Imperial Crusade, however, might be able to request the full Regiment--but it's not going to happen often.

And Imperial Armor isn't generally considered usable, or at least much less so than the main codices.

Actually, Imperial Armour is 100% legal for pick-up games et all. It's considered common courtesy to inform your opponent you plan on using it, and having the book and related FAQs on hand so they can reference it whenever an issue arises.

Tournament Organizers, however, have the final say so as to whether something is or isn't 'legal' for that tournament. A TO could ban the use of Codex: Space Wolves, Tyranids, etc if they so chose.

Guard are possibly the only faction with much justification to have multiple codices, while Space Marines have exactly no justification to do so

Yeah...this again seems like you're actually completely unfamiliar with fluff or the fact that some of the 'multiple codices' are halfassed jobs done early on for this edition or done late in previous editions.

The intent of Dark Angels was to, originally, be the only way to field large quantities of Terminators/Bikers and having troops that excelled in firebases. Which is, frankly, what the Unforgiven are all about. They're stubborn and unyielding defenders who will fight to the last man pouring on disciplined bolter fire and fielding large quantities of Plasma weaponry, with the additional point of they don't usually field 'assault' troops outside of Terminator Armour.

Codex: Space Marines was supposed to cover the 'Big 6' Chapters that are supposedly the most common Codex Chapters(Salamanders, Raven Guard, White Scars, Ultramarines, and the Imperial/Crimson Fists). These Chapters follow the 'standard organizational make-up' in that they have 10 Companies, are the basis for many Successor Chapters,etc. However, a few of them have minor divergences that are easily represented within that book's framework. Matt Ward, however, took it to an extreme that pretty much 'broke' the rest of the Marine archetypes.

Codex: Space Wolves was supposed to cover the, traditionally, most divergent of the Chapters/Legions. The Wolves have never subscribed to the standard make-up, with each Company effectively operating as its own Chapter. Kelly went overboard and made it the de facto 'Terminator army' list with the Loganwing.

Codex: Black Templars is an old one, which was supposed to be representative of a very pious Chapter that fields no Librarians. The Templars, while a Successor Chapter, have always been pretty divergent from the fact that they're mainly an 'assault' Chapter which opts to get into combat as fast as possible. Why? Because that's what Sigismund did.

Codex: Blood Angels was just poorly done. The drawback of Death Company in prior editions wasn't kept(namely: they could be anything. Death Company Devastators/Scouts anyone?) and moreover, tons of stupid previously unknown units/vehicles were added.

Basically: with proper design direction and reigning in some of the jackasses working on the books, it would be easy to effectively make the Astartes suitably different in playstyles.

Much as I am utterly unqualified to make this analogy, I think it will hold up:

Think of Space Marines like (American) Football players. Yes, they all wear and use the same gear (painted different colors) - but each Chapter (team) has it's own special characters, history, tactical emphases, etc.

If you don't like football, that's why there's hockey, basketball, soccer, etc.

Xenos are like the other sports. Mostly football players are going to crush hockey players...on grass. Basketball players are going to out shoot soccer players, but will be outrun by them. You get the idea.

VoidAngel wrote:Much as I am utterly unqualified to make this analogy, I think it will hold up:

Think of Space Marines like (American) Football players. Yes, they all wear and use the same gear (painted different colors) - but each Chapter (team) has it's own special characters, history, tactical emphases, etc.

If you don't like football, that's why there's hockey, basketball, soccer, etc.

Xenos are like the other sports. Mostly football players are going to crush hockey players...on grass. Basketball players are going to out shoot soccer players, but will be outrun by them. You get the idea.

An interesting comparison. It would be more realistic if you added that Football gets 75% of all the air time (assume only one network exists), and all the other sports get to share the remaining 25% percent. That's how GW is currently rolling. When was the last time anyone saw a Tau, Necron, Sisters or Eldar update on their website? OK, Eldar got a little love with the Fire Prism/ Night Spinner, but that was still a while back. And we're not counting LotR and WHFB for the purposes of this metaphor.

No one counts LotR (because there are no players - they are mythological, like Bigfoot).

WHFB isn't as popular in the States, but yeah - it does render yet more pages of WD totally useless. For that matter, why wouldn't GW print 3 magazines? Make fans of all the games (both of them) buy all three. Give the rest of us something worth half what they charge for that rag now.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture.

Shows how little you actually know regarding the Guard.

The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

But they are actually rare and due to their specialist nature, highly valued and split amongst various commands. At most, an Imperial 'army' will have access to a few platoons worth of those regiments. They're not necessarily fielded en masse, but are fielded as a kind of 'leveler' when their skills are necessitated by the situation at hand.

An Imperial Crusade, however, might be able to request the full Regiment--but it's not going to happen often.

That's... really kind of the opposite of what the fluff implies. Gameplay suggests that, because every guard army, excluding those rare ones with variant rules (like the death korps) follows the exact same rules, but all the fluff I've read that involved Guardsmen to any extent beyond "and there were totally guardsmen there and stuff, now moving on..." suggests a radical difference in the loadout and general training of different regiments, since they are all equipped and initially trained on their own worlds, after all.

And Imperial Armor isn't generally considered usable, or at least much less so than the main codices.

Actually, Imperial Armour is 100% legal for pick-up games et all. It's considered common courtesy to inform your opponent you plan on using it, and having the book and related FAQs on hand so they can reference it whenever an issue arises.

Tournament Organizers, however, have the final say so as to whether something is or isn't 'legal' for that tournament. A TO could ban the use of Codex: Space Wolves, Tyranids, etc if they so chose.

Nothing and everything is legal for pickup games. From reading here, I get the impression that they're generally not accepted in either casual pickup games or tournaments.

Guard are possibly the only faction with much justification to have multiple codices, while Space Marines have exactly no justification to do so

Yeah...this again seems like you're actually completely unfamiliar with fluff or the fact that some of the 'multiple codices' are halfassed jobs done early on for this edition or done late in previous editions.

The intent of Dark Angels was to, originally, be the only way to field large quantities of Terminators/Bikers and having troops that excelled in firebases. Which is, frankly, what the Unforgiven are all about. They're stubborn and unyielding defenders who will fight to the last man pouring on disciplined bolter fire and fielding large quantities of Plasma weaponry, with the additional point of they don't usually field 'assault' troops outside of Terminator Armour.

Codex: Space Marines was supposed to cover the 'Big 6' Chapters that are supposedly the most common Codex Chapters(Salamanders, Raven Guard, White Scars, Ultramarines, and the Imperial/Crimson Fists). These Chapters follow the 'standard organizational make-up' in that they have 10 Companies, are the basis for many Successor Chapters,etc. However, a few of them have minor divergences that are easily represented within that book's framework. Matt Ward, however, took it to an extreme that pretty much 'broke' the rest of the Marine archetypes.

Codex: Space Wolves was supposed to cover the, traditionally, most divergent of the Chapters/Legions. The Wolves have never subscribed to the standard make-up, with each Company effectively operating as its own Chapter. Kelly went overboard and made it the de facto 'Terminator army' list with the Loganwing.

Codex: Black Templars is an old one, which was supposed to be representative of a very pious Chapter that fields no Librarians. The Templars, while a Successor Chapter, have always been pretty divergent from the fact that they're mainly an 'assault' Chapter which opts to get into combat as fast as possible. Why? Because that's what Sigismund did.

Codex: Blood Angels was just poorly done. The drawback of Death Company in prior editions wasn't kept(namely: they could be anything. Death Company Devastators/Scouts anyone?) and moreover, tons of stupid previously unknown units/vehicles were added.

Basically: with proper design direction and reigning in some of the jackasses working on the books, it would be easy to effectively make the Astartes suitably different in playstyles.

Yeah, Space Marines are so different. These ones use blue paint on their otherwise identical power armor, and these ones use red paint on their... identical power armor, and these over here use bolters... wait... but I mean these over here, they're even bigger Mary Sues than the rest, that makes them unique little snowflakes, doesn't it? It doesn't? It just makes them even more ridiculous and generic? Huh...

VoidAngel wrote:
No, you misunderstand me. You don't renew all the books every year - just in the year following the release of a new edition.

THEN (so that things don't get stale, as Starship Captain suggests they might) - you release codex list and unit updates every few months via that internet thing (as SumYungGui suggests). These could not only be fixes to problems, but added units, configurations, or rules that let you build an alternate army.

Whilst it would be very much advantageous that all the books were brought up-to-date together (preferably right after when new core rules are released), there are several problems:

First of all, GW playerbase have been spoiled by through, elaborate armybooks with tons of fluff, wargear, pretty pics, etc. All the attempts by GW to simplify the books so they can be produced quicker have been met with disapproval. Even if you (rightfully) mock the lack of playtesting, merely writing all the fluff, unit entries, wargear descriptions etc. is a major undertaking. You could, of course, just release barebone codices, but people would whine, just like they did before when GW tried it.

Second, GW tends to coincide release of new figs with the new armybooks which contain said units, which is an excellent way to promote them. If they were all released together, they would be just a giant mass with no standouts.

Third, the idea of "constant upgrading" is quite frankly a terrible one. Most players don't constantly press Refresh on their browsers to stay up-to-date with latest developments. Many are away months/years, then dust off the figs and start again, and check if the armybook is changed and which of their favourite units and figs are still usable. Most likely little has changed. They do NOT want to hear that they will have to go to GW website and read up half a dozen little addendum PDF's which contain not only new stuff to their own army, but also new stuff to their regular opponents. "Just what the Hades is that?" "-Oh, that's just the new Storm Eagle mk3 which contains triple-linked Assault gun with cover-ignoring Heckfire rounds. Oh, you didn't know that all the Marines have FNP nowadays? It was added 2 months ago."

PP managed to pull off all of the things which you are stating is impossible/stupid/less than ideal with their Mk2 re-tooling and their sales, by all accounts, appear to be soaring.

Regarding Backfire's first point:

They are big enough that it could be done. There's less in a codex than there is in an issue of White Dwarf - yet they manage to put that out every month. Personally, I would LIKE them to stop writing fluff - it all exists already, and they've totally forgotten how to do it properly.

Regarding the second: no, you drive sales for existing models with books. It works better, and is cheaper. You release new models when they are ready. They will still sell.

Regarding the third: Tournament players will be up to date, causal players will be up to date or won't care. Either way, little harm done. There won't be a "half dozen PDFs for each army". You're exaggerating.

Kanluwen wrote:Basically: with proper design direction and reigning in some of the jackasses working on the books, it would be easy to effectively make the Astartes suitably different in playstyles.

A-freaking-men.

However, I think your understanding of the Guard is somewhat flawed. Be advised, this is a long post.

Sure, their basic equipment may be similar....if by "basic" you mean "lasgun." Even those lasguns have multiple different models and configurations. Granted, the difference between the Cadian's M36 Lasgun and the Catachan's Mk. 4 Lascarbine is, in game terms, very limited. Well, it can be; a carbine would be far more handy in the close-quarters firefights that Catachans engage in. Anyways. The Guard codex also speaks of the, "much sought after variable power setting Triplex pattern," and my memories of the Inquisitor/Dark Heresy books has a third Lasgun variant with in-game (for Inquisitor/Dark Heresy) differences. So, not all Lasguns are the same. As for the other equipment, well....their may not be variants in heavy and special weapons, but the old Guard Codex did lay out which regiments had a predilection for which special and heavy weapons. Soooo....not all Guard armies will be equipped the same.

Organization is somewhat more fickle. Guard regiments are organized by their planet of origin's war-making culture. Sure, Cadian units have company command squads commanding the company, and platoon command squads leading platoons. However, the Catachans, in their codex, specifically did not have platoon command squads. Above the company level (i.e. in the battalion or regimental range), there can be other differences in organization; number of companies to the battalion or regiment, heavy weapons companies, other specialist companies, whether or not there is organic armor or heavy artillery, and so on and so forth.

As for their training and operation, you can't be more wrong. Like, literally, cannot be more wrong.

First of all, Guard specialists are not, I say again, not, penny-packaged in platoons. They are deployed as regiments. There is absolutely no mention in the Imperial Guard codex about specialists being deployed in anything less than company strength. The one possible exception addresses remnants, i.e. combining battle-depleted units together to get a unit into fighting shape.

Second, your statement that specialists are rare is exceedingly questionable. Catachans are a specialist unit type, and there are numerous Catachan regiments. Furthermore, in the Catachan codex, it addressed at least half a dozen other worlds which boast jungle fighters. Seeing as the Imperium of Man has a crapton of worlds, there is very little reason to believe that there are only a handful of jungle deathworlds out there. Hell, what about the Armageddon Ork Fighters? They were pretty proficient in jungle warfare as well, and jungle only covers a part of Armageddon.

Third, your supposition that all Guard regiments fight alike (your exact words were, "their training....will not vary") demonstrates shocking ignorance. How does a unit of jungle fighters or light infantry, whose entire job revolves around patrols, ambushes, infiltration, and raids, have similar training to mechanized infantry, who can deliver an incredible amount of combat power very quickly? Are you saying Basic Rifle Marksmanship is the extant of all Guard training?

Developing this further, I can tell you from experience that not all infantry divisions are the same. I wrote my Master's thesis on the Logistics of the 101st Airborne Division in the First Gulf War. As a part of it, I had to address the capabilities of the Air Assault Division. Simply put, an Air Assault unit fights drastically different from a Mechanized, Airborne, or Light division. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and thus, their own doctrine. An Air Assault division, for example, has an incredible amount of mobility; in the First Gulf War, for example, within 38 hours of the commencement of the ground war the 101st moved one brigade 90 miles into Iraq and set up a forward operating/refueling base for its helicopters, and positioned another brigade 155 miles into Iraq, astride the Iraqi main east-west Highway 8. The cost of that mobility, though, is high fuel consumption, a greater vulnerability to weather factors (a massive sandstorm shut down helicopter operations, for example). The 24th Infantry, 1st Infantry, and 1st and 2nd Marines all fought in the Gulf War, and each of them fought in their own manner; 24th Mech covered the left (west) flank of VII Corps, the Big Red One breached the Iraqi fortifications and attacked with their tanks and Bradleys, and the Marines carried out a far slower breach of the Iraqi lines.

Thinking about it, I'd like to relate another story told to me by a vet. He had spent the bulk of his time in Ranger regiments. He transferred to another unit (it might have been the 101st) eventually, though. He was on an exercise, and tasked to "attack" an objective. He drew on his extensive experience with the Rangers, figured that "Attack" and "Raid" were the same thing (they are, right? They both involve doing great amounts of violence to people at a certain spot), and planned and launched an offensive, "like they had never seen." His word, by the way. After capturing the objective, he then began to carry out the remainder of his plan. His commander came over to him and asked him what he was doing. He responded with, "We captured the objective, now we have to get the hell off it!" His commander then calmly explained the difference between, "Attack" and "Raid." Well, calmly compared to a Commissar.

Summary: Attack and Raid are not the same thing, and experience in one unit type will not necessarily translate well to another, because units operate in different manners.

Now, bringing it back to 40k, the various kinds of Guard infantry are in no way, shape, or form the same. The Death Korps of Krieg are known for their attrition tactics. The Steel Legion are known for their swift mechanized assaults. The Tallaran are known for their hit-and-run raids, both with infantry and with vehicles. Elysians practice DEATH FROM ABOVE! The disciplined Cadian regiments are in stark contrast with the Salvar Chem Dogs. If nothing else, please try to explain to me how the rank-and-file, volley-firing Moridian Iron Guard are in any way, shape, or form similar in fighting method to the renowned light infantry of the Tanith First-and-Only.

Just because the Guard players in your area play similar kinds of armies does NOT mean that all of the Imperial Guard is the same. They effectively gave us a Cadian codex, when there are several other armies/fighting styles/doctrines/whatever that are available, but Games Workshop will not do because a.) Their lack of knowledge of military affairs is nauseating, and b.) They are too busy cramming Space Marines down our throats. Honestly. Last year, how many months featured the release of a Space Marine model of some kind? I'd be willing to bet quite a few.

Now, to address your points about the Dark Angels, how are Dark Angels NOT Codex Astartes? Their First Company is filled with Terminators, rather than veterans, and their Tenth Company scouts are mounted on bikes, rather than walking. Massive changes, surely. So large they can be summed up in a paragraph. Something along the lines of, "If you play a Dark Angles Deathwing army, you may take Terminators as troops, but cannot take [whatever]. If you play a Dark Angels Ravenwing army, you may take bikes as troops, but may not take [whatever]. If you play a Dark Angles army that is not Deathwing or Ravenwing, follow Codex: Space Marines, but the following units have the Stubborn special rule at 1 point per model: [list units here]." If I missed something, well, I apologize for not knowing the fluff that GW adds so that all of the Marine units look like they can be different.

However, I do agree with your assessments about the other Space Marines codicies. Especially the Blood Angels one. I saw red quite frequently when I saw the multitude of stupid special rules, gimmicks, and vehicles. Freakin' Loyalist Khornates. Out of curiosity, how did you feel about the last Space Marine 'dex? The one where you could choose divergences and whatnot? I liked that; it allowed someone to...make a chapter that tailored to their tastes. Like the Guard codex of that time. Except that both the Marine and Guard codicies had choices that were stupidly over- or under-powered or -costed.

edit:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Yeah, Space Marines are so different. These ones use blue paint on their otherwise identical power armor, and these ones use red paint on their... identical power armor, and these over here use bolters... wait... but I mean these over here, they're even bigger Mary Sues than the rest, that makes them unique little snowflakes, doesn't it? It doesn't? It just makes them even more ridiculous and generic? Huh...

Well said.

edit2: If you REALLY dispute the whole, "different kinds of infantry fight in different ways" thing, I would advise you to find some Field Manuals on the topic. You can see for yourself. Might even learn something.
edit3: You could also read some military history. Check out World War II. German, Soviet, Japanese, British, American, Italian armies, all fought differently. Sometimes even differences between units of the same type. Flames of War is quite tasty in this regard.

Ogiwan wrote:

edit:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Yeah, Space Marines are so different. These ones use blue paint on their otherwise identical power armor, and these ones use red paint on their... identical power armor, and these over here use bolters... wait... but I mean these over here, they're even bigger Mary Sues than the rest, that makes them unique little snowflakes, doesn't it? It doesn't? It just makes them even more ridiculous and generic? Huh...

Well said.

No, it's not well said, it's totally ignorant of the core background of the game. The OP OBVIOUSLY only has an interest in the rules and models. This does not make him right.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture.

Shows how little you actually know regarding the Guard.

The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

But they are actually rare and due to their specialist nature, highly valued and split amongst various commands. At most, an Imperial 'army' will have access to a few platoons worth of those regiments. They're not necessarily fielded en masse, but are fielded as a kind of 'leveler' when their skills are necessitated by the situation at hand.

An Imperial Crusade, however, might be able to request the full Regiment--but it's not going to happen often.

That's... really kind of the opposite of what the fluff implies. Gameplay suggests that, because every guard army, excluding those rare ones with variant rules (like the death korps) follows the exact same rules, but all the fluff I've read that involved Guardsmen to any extent beyond "and there were totally guardsmen there and stuff, now moving on..." suggests a radical difference in the loadout and general training of different regiments, since they are all equipped and initially trained on their own worlds, after all.

No, actually it doesn't.

Because the Imperial Guard, no matter where they're raised, all fall under the provision of the Munitorum. The Munitorum supplies them with the equipment and training personnel, usually drawn up from existing Imperial Guard regiments' pool of wounded or 'retired' personnel.

At the absolute most, you see different lasgun patterns with different sized power packs, uniforms that are cut differently, etc.

It doesn't, however, mean that the regiment is effectively 'unique'--unless the Munitorum explicitly allows the Regiment to be raised as a specialist Regiment.

And Imperial Armor isn't generally considered usable, or at least much less so than the main codices.

Actually, Imperial Armour is 100% legal for pick-up games et all. It's considered common courtesy to inform your opponent you plan on using it, and having the book and related FAQs on hand so they can reference it whenever an issue arises.

Tournament Organizers, however, have the final say so as to whether something is or isn't 'legal' for that tournament. A TO could ban the use of Codex: Space Wolves, Tyranids, etc if they so chose.

Nothing and everything is legal for pickup games. From reading here, I get the impression that they're generally not accepted in either casual pickup games or tournaments.

As I said:

Suddenly springing it on someone is seen as bad form. Tournaments can allow or disallow whatever they feel like, and there's a stigma amongst TOs that it's all "overpowered and unbalancing" when that couldn't be further from the truth in most cases.

Yeah, Space Marines are so different. These ones use blue paint on their otherwise identical power armor, and these ones use red paint on their... identical power armor, and these over here use bolters... wait... but I mean these over here, they're even bigger Mary Sues than the rest, that makes them unique little snowflakes, doesn't it? It doesn't? It just makes them even more ridiculous and generic? Huh...

'Yeah, Imperial Guard are so different. These ones use green paint on their otherwise identical flak armor, and these ones use grey paint on their identical flak armor, and these over here use lots of tanks...wait...but I mean these over here, they're even bigger Mary Sues than the rest, that makes them unique little snowflakes, doesn't it? It doesn't? It just makes them even more ridiculous and generic? Huh...'

Speaking as a Guard player: I can make pretty much any existing regiment using the standard Codex. The only thing that sets the Elysians and Death Korps apart from the standard Codex is that they've had their background fully explored and realized by Forge World.

If the other Marine books had it done properly, you would see a very different game. As it is: the half-assed job done by the studio design team shows.

Kanluwen wrote:
The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

Um, have you read any of the Codex: Imperial Guard books?

They *very specifically* go out of their way to state there are huge differences in equipment and training, some going to war as highly trained elite infantry and some going to war with little better than some draft papers and being hastily trained on-ship while en-route to a warzone. The only piece of wargear even close to being universal is the Lasgun.

To quote C:IG 3.5E "within the Imperium, the sheer diversity of ancient cultures breeds countless types of soldier within the Imperial Guard"

Pretty much every C:IG has gone to great lengths to explain that the training and organization of the IG varies tremendously. There are conscript horde regiments of many tens or hundreds of thousands of troops and elite infantry regiments of only a couple thousand, armored regiments which may consist of a few hundred, etc. All with different background, training, equipment, and organization.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

But they are actually rare and due to their specialist nature, highly valued and split amongst various commands. At most, an Imperial 'army' will have access to a few platoons worth of those regiments. They're not necessarily fielded en masse, but are fielded as a kind of 'leveler' when their skills are necessitated by the situation at hand.

An Imperial Crusade, however, might be able to request the full Regiment--but it's not going to happen often.

Krieg's entire purpose is to turn out soldiers for the Imperial Guard, such regiments may be "rare" next to say, Infantry Regiments trained to the Cadian standard, but they're going to be a damn sight more common than the Astartes as a whole and certainly more than any singular chapter.

The intent of Dark Angels was to, originally, be the only way to field large quantities of Terminators/Bikers and having troops that excelled in firebases.

This only became part of the Dark Angels thing with their 3E book. That's not what the Dark Angels faction was created for.

Which is, frankly, what the Unforgiven are all about. They're stubborn and unyielding defenders who will fight to the last man pouring on disciplined bolter fire and fielding large quantities of Plasma weaponry, with the additional point of they don't usually field 'assault' troops outside of Terminator Armour.

Where is the fluff that they so favor huge quantities of plasma weaponry?

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture.

Shows how little you actually know regarding the Guard.

The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

Thats substantially wrong on both fluff and gaming levels. Respectfully, re-read the codexes, you'll note the fluff showing a plethora of varied regiment types, makeup, and tactics. The whole point of doctrines was to codify a sampling of the many differences in organization, makeup, and training.

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture.

Shows how little you actually know regarding the Guard.

The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

Thats substantially wrong on both fluff and gaming levels. Respectfully, re-read the codexes, you'll note the fluff showing a plethora of varied regiment types, makeup, and tactics. The whole point of doctrines was to codify a sampling of the many differences in organization, makeup, and training.

Yep, the Codex even makes a point in certain areas to express that certain regiments are noted for certain tactics and specializations they use.

Ogiwan wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Basically: with proper design direction and reigning in some of the jackasses working on the books, it would be easy to effectively make the Astartes suitably different in playstyles.

A-freaking-men.

However, I think your understanding of the Guard is somewhat flawed. Be advised, this is a long post.

Sure, their basic equipment may be similar....if by "basic" you mean "lasgun." Even those lasguns have multiple different models and configurations. Granted, the difference between the Cadian's M36 Lasgun and the Catachan's Mk. 4 Lascarbine is, in game terms, very limited. Well, it can be; a carbine would be far more handy in the close-quarters firefights that Catachans engage in. Anyways. The Guard codex also speaks of the, "much sought after variable power setting Triplex pattern," and my memories of the Inquisitor/Dark Heresy books has a third Lasgun variant with in-game (for Inquisitor/Dark Heresy) differences. So, not all Lasguns are the same. As for the other equipment, well....their may not be variants in heavy and special weapons, but the old Guard Codex did lay out which regiments had a predilection for which special and heavy weapons. Soooo....not all Guard armies will be equipped the same.

Actually yes. All lasguns are the same. The 'Triplex pattern' was basically a joke. Every pattern of lasgun has 'variable fire settings'.

Organization is somewhat more fickle. Guard regiments are organized by their planet of origin's war-making culture. Sure, Cadian units have company command squads commanding the company, and platoon command squads leading platoons. However, the Catachans, in their codex, specifically did not have platoon command squads. Above the company level (i.e. in the battalion or regimental range), there can be other differences in organization; number of companies to the battalion or regiment, heavy weapons companies, other specialist companies, whether or not there is organic armor or heavy artillery, and so on and so forth.

You're talking about Catachans in their little tiny Codex.

That was replaced when we saw the next IG book. And it's still not applicable in that regard.

As for "organic armor or heavy artillery"--no. That's not how it works. The Krieg "Siege" regiments are one of the few that actively have artillery rolled within their organization. Most Regiments will have a complimentary Regiment founded at the same time that will commonly be fielded with them.

As for their training and operation, you can't be more wrong. Like, literally, cannot be more wrong.

First of all, Guard specialists are not, I say again, not, penny-packaged in platoons. They are deployed as regiments. There is absolutely no mention in the Imperial Guard codex about specialists being deployed in anything less than company strength. The one possible exception addresses remnants, i.e. combining battle-depleted units together to get a unit into fighting shape.

Yeah...maybe you should try reading something other than simply the Codex before trying to call me wrong. Specifically: Imperial Armour 8 makes mention of the Raven Guard having to fight to get an entire regiment of Elysian Drop Troops for a surgical raid that could decapitate the potential warmaking ability of a Waagh!. In the end, they had to essentially 'trade' the services of the Raven Guard for the Elysians.

Second, your statement that specialists are rare is exceedingly questionable. Catachans are a specialist unit type, and there are numerous Catachan regiments. Furthermore, in the Catachan codex, it addressed at least half a dozen other worlds which boast jungle fighters. Seeing as the Imperium of Man has a crapton of worlds, there is very little reason to believe that there are only a handful of jungle deathworlds out there. Hell, what about the Armageddon Ork Fighters? They were pretty proficient in jungle warfare as well, and jungle only covers a part of Armageddon.

The Armageddon Ork Fighters were an example of a rare exception. Was the entire Steel Legion dropping down into the jungle?
No?
Huh. How about that. Rare exception.
And once again: Catachan Codex is inapplicable.

Third, your supposition that all Guard regiments fight alike (your exact words were, "their training....will not vary") demonstrates shocking ignorance. How does a unit of jungle fighters or light infantry, whose entire job revolves around patrols, ambushes, infiltration, and raids, have similar training to mechanized infantry, who can deliver an incredible amount of combat power very quickly? Are you saying Basic Rifle Marksmanship is the extant of all Guard training?

You really are just looking to pick a fight, huh?

"Units of jungle fighters or light infantry" are considered specialist regiments. They're deployed piecemeal to the front as needed, not all at once.

Summary: Attack and Raid are not the same thing, and experience in one unit type will not necessarily translate well to another, because units operate in different manners.

Good thing I said nothing whatsoever about that huh?
The 'basic' Guard regiment is the Cadian example--which is what the Imperial Guard Codex represents. It's made up of hardened line infantry, who

Now, bringing it back to 40k, the various kinds of Guard infantry are in no way, shape, or form the same. The Death Korps of Krieg are known for their attrition tactics. The Steel Legion are known for their swift mechanized assaults. The Tallarn are known for their hit-and-run raids, both with infantry and with vehicles. Elysians practice DEATH FROM ABOVE! The disciplined Cadian regiments are in stark contrast with the Salvar Chem Dogs. If nothing else, please try to explain to me how the rank-and-file, volley-firing Mordian Iron Guard are in any way, shape, or form similar in fighting method to the renowned light infantry of the Tanith First-and-Only.

You do know that you didn't even get those things right, yeah?
Death Korps of Krieg are principally known for their siege warfare tactics. Attrition is a part of it, but not for the reason you think. The Death Korps are for all intents and purposes a 'penitent' force. They're actively trying to atone for sins committed by their planet; namely it rebelled against the Imperium.
The Steel Legion, while known for 'mechanized assaults' are more known for the fact that they're a mechanized force.
The Tallarn are known for guerilla tactics, but more specifically, their ability to adapt to desert worlds.
Elysians are actually not primarily "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" in the style of the 101st Airborne in WWII. They are more the Air Cavalry circa Vietnam or the modern Army Air Mobile forces. They're known for the fact that they have large amounts of Valkyries and Vultures actually crewed by their own people, and within their direct chain of command. Anything else they still have to get from the Imperial Navy.
Cadians and Savlar Chem Dogs are, you're right, as far from each other as you can get in terms of the overall discipline. However Cadian Regiments do still have the 'trophy' mentality going on, with many troopers packing weaponry that they scavenged from the field and had rededicated and blessed. The Cadians are, if nothing else, practical.
The last example is a perfect example of it seems like you entirely missed the point of Specialist Regiments.
The Tanith, while called 'light infantry' by the playerbase...really aren't. They wear the same flak jackets as the rest of the Guard and they have the same overall weaponry(although eschewing the heavier emplaced weapons in favor of missile launchers so that they have something more portable--but again: this isn't uncommon. Many regiments, even in the fluff, will use weaponry that they feel is complimentary to their abilities) as the rest of the Guard. The only real difference in the Tanith is the situation that they found themselves in. They, originally, were to be the first full Founding(3 Regiments) from Tanith, and they were to be fielded as line infantry who also had a predilection towards stealth and insurgency.
Only one Regiment made it off world, and the Tanith were pretty much left out to dry afterwards.

Just because the Guard players in your area play similar kinds of armies does NOT mean that all of the Imperial Guard is the same. They effectively gave us a Cadian codex, when there are several other armies/fighting styles/doctrines/whatever that are available, but Games Workshop will not do because a.) Their lack of knowledge of military affairs is nauseating, and b.) They are too busy cramming Space Marines down our throats. Honestly. Last year, how many months featured the release of a Space Marine model of some kind? I'd be willing to bet quite a few.

If you want to play something with "knowledge of military affairs", I suggest historicals.
And where did I ever say anything about the "Guard players in my area"?
Fun fact: I have more Dark Eldar and Xenos players in my area than Marine/Guard. I am, at last count, the only regular Guard player.

As for "they effectively gave us a Cadian codex"...no, they didn't.
A Cadian Codex would have the Kasrkin and Whiteshield platoons in it.
Kasrkin, as an example, are far better trained and equipped Stormtroopers who have genetic modifications that put them on par with the Halo universe's Spartans.
Whiteshield platoons are groups of Cadian Youth organized into platoons, supervised by fully 'shielded' Guardsmen who oversee their training outside of combat and ensure that they don't break in combat.

Now, to address your points about the Dark Angels, how are Dark Angels NOT Codex Astartes? Their First Company is filled with Terminators, rather than veterans, and their Tenth Company scouts are mounted on bikes, rather than walking.Massive changes, surely. So large they can be summed up in a paragraph. Something along the lines of, "If you play a Dark Angels Deathwing army, you may take Terminators as troops, but cannot take [whatever]. If you play a Dark Angels Ravenwing army, you may take bikes as troops, but may not take [whatever]. If you play a Dark Angels army that is not Deathwing or Ravenwing, follow Codex: Space Marines, but the following units have the Stubborn special rule at 1 point per model: [list units here]." If I missed something, well, I apologize for not knowing the fluff that GW adds so that all of the Marine units look like they can be different.

Actually, their "10th Company Scouts" aren't the ones mounted on bikes. That's the 2nd Company.

As in the entire Second Company.
Their Scouts, if you go by the fluff, are also commonly operating alongside the 2nd Company or preparing the way for a 1st Company Teleport Assault.
The problem is most of the fluff we have for Dark Angels isn't actually represented within their Codex. It's been more fleshed out in the Deathwatch RPG or the two Horus Heresy novels.

However, I do agree with your assessments about the other Space Marines codicies. Especially the Blood Angels one. I saw red quite frequently when I saw the multitude of stupid special rules, gimmicks, and vehicles. Freakin' Loyalist Khornates. Out of curiosity, how did you feel about the last Space Marine 'dex? The one where you could choose divergences and whatnot? I liked that; it allowed someone to...make a chapter that tailored to their tastes. Like the Guard codex of that time. Except that both the Marine and Guard codicies had choices that were stupidly over- or under-powered or -costed.

The Marine Codex was a good first try...but it allowed too many abuses. Same as the Guard codices. That they opted to just go in a different direction speaks volumes of how badly it was done.

If you REALLY dispute the whole, "different kinds of infantry fight in different ways" thing, I would advise you to find some Field Manuals on the topic. You can see for yourself. Might even learn something.

And I would advise you to realize that the Imperial Guard doesn't really follow field manuals that you'd see in a modern army

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The appearance of the equipment used by Guard regiments will "vary radically from planet to planet".
Their training, organization, and basic equipment make-up will not vary.

Um, have you read any of the Codex: Imperial Guard books?

Yeah. Have you read anything beyond the Codex?

They *very specifically* go out of their way to state there are huge differences in equipment and training, some going to war as highly trained elite infantry and some going to war with little better than some draft papers and being hastily trained on-ship while en-route to a warzone. The only piece of wargear even close to being universal is the Lasgun.

Not actually true. Flak armor is also universal . The only real 'difference' is how the flak armor is represented. Valhallans' longcoat stuffed with flak plates is just a different 'pattern' than a Cadians' full on body armor.

Very few are the regiments entirely decked out in Carapace Armor or Cameloline. And both are usually specialist regiments formed for a specific purpose.

To quote C:IG 3.5E "within the Imperium, the sheer diversity of ancient cultures breeds countless types of soldier within the Imperial Guard"

So what? Are you going to tell me that the make-up of, say, a culture like the Mordians is different than the Cadians? They're both effectively worlds 'under siege' and breed that warrior mentality.
To think that 'sheer diversity of ancient cultures' won't necessarily breed multiple examples of the same thing is silly.

Pretty much every C:IG has gone to great lengths to explain that the training and organization of the IG varies tremendously. There are conscript horde regiments of many tens or hundreds of thousands of troops and elite infantry regiments of only a couple thousand, armored regiments which may consist of a few hundred, etc. All with different background, training, equipment, and organization.

Except that's BS when you come down to it. The training of the Guard is done by the Munitorum, but almost always are they trained first as those 'conscript horde regiments of many tens or hundreds of thousands of troops'. As time goes on, the regiment may receive more specialized training--or they received it to begin with because they were founded for a specific purpose.

In rare circumstances, such as the Death Korps of Krieg you'll find different vehicles like the Centaurs in lieu of Chimeras or you'll find a regiment like the Elysian Drop Troops and the Tanith First & Only.

But they are actually rare and due to their specialist nature, highly valued and split amongst various commands. At most, an Imperial 'army' will have access to a few platoons worth of those regiments. They're not necessarily fielded en masse, but are fielded as a kind of 'leveler' when their skills are necessitated by the situation at hand.

An Imperial Crusade, however, might be able to request the full Regiment--but it's not going to happen often.

Krieg's entire purpose is to turn out soldiers for the Imperial Guard, such regiments may be "rare" next to say, Infantry Regiments trained to the Cadian standard, but they're going to be a damn sight more common than the Astartes as a whole and certainly more than any singular chapter.

You know, here's the biggest problem I have with that example.
The "Cadian standard" is actually far beyond what the Codex shows. You've got the Kasrkin, they Whiteshields, et all. They were done a grave injustice by not actually being presented in a proper format, and leading to this idea that Cadia is a 'cookie cutter' army.

In reality, many of the infantry regiments(which they even said at one point) use the same pattern of gear to 'imitate' the Cadians and hopefully intimidate their foes.

But yes. You are right that the Guards' specialists are going to be 'a damn sight more common than the Astartes'. However, that doesn't mean that they're just falling out of the skies.
Well, except for the Elysians. That's what they do sometimes, y'know

The intent of Dark Angels was to, originally, be the only way to field large quantities of Terminators/Bikers and having troops that excelled in firebases.

This only became part of the Dark Angels thing with their 3E book. That's not what the Dark Angels faction was created for.

I'm aware of that. But I was meaning with the most recent Dark Angels book; which the intent was to have a way to field the 'Deathwing' and 'Ravenwing', or equivalents of that nature.

Which is, frankly, what the Unforgiven are all about. They're stubborn and unyielding defenders who will fight to the last man pouring on disciplined bolter fire and fielding large quantities of Plasma weaponry, with the additional point of they don't usually field 'assault' troops outside of Terminator Armour.

Where is the fluff that they so favor huge quantities of plasma weaponry?

VoidAngel wrote:
They are big enough that it could be done. There's less in a codex than there is in an issue of White Dwarf - yet they manage to put that out every month. Personally, I would LIKE them to stop writing fluff - it all exists already, and they've totally forgotten how to do it properly.

All the fluff which you have read dozens of times in different versions over last 20 years and are sick of, is completely new for someone who starts the game anew. As for quality, all the 3rd edition books I've read have little fluff, and it's generally terrible, compared to newer books.

VoidAngel wrote:
Regarding the second: no, you drive sales for existing models with books. It works better, and is cheaper. You release new models when they are ready. They will still sell.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. Good luck selling models without rules for them.

VoidAngel wrote:
Regarding the third: Tournament players will be up to date, causal players will be up to date or won't care. Either way, little harm done. There won't be a "half dozen PDFs for each army". You're exaggerating.

You are completely underestimating the effort what it takes to stay on top of metagame if everything changes every two months. Contrary to what has been said, releasing a new Codex for some other army is NOT the same. What changes have IG players, for example, made to their lists due to three books released since that? Very little.

Yes, hardcore tournament players will do that. Most players won't. And it does matter, because it makes the whole ruleset environment messy, with players having whatever they printed off GW's website 4 months ago, which is less valid than what was printed last week, but more up-to-date to what year-old rules were. You would have complaints like "I bought these #%¤¤% expensive Vendettas for my army, and they increased points cost to 180 points in the Addendum 2.25 so I have to redo my army again. Gee, thanks a lot, greedy bastads."

Ogiwan wrote:

However, I do agree with your assessments about the other Space Marines codicies. Especially the Blood Angels one. I saw red quite frequently when I saw the multitude of stupid special rules, gimmicks, and vehicles. Freakin' Loyalist Khornates. Out of curiosity, how did you feel about the last Space Marine 'dex? The one where you could choose divergences and whatnot? I liked that; it allowed someone to...make a chapter that tailored to their tastes. Like the Guard codex of that time. Except that both the Marine and Guard codicies had choices that were stupidly over- or under-powered or -costed.

I wish we could go back to this, rescope and create one Dex. With all of the notable chapters represented in this way.

There is the issue of all that fluff living somewhere I suppose.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah. Have you read anything beyond the Codex?\

Yes? Your point? What terribly contradicts the codecies?

Not actually true. Flak armor is also universal . The only real 'difference' is how the flak armor is represented. Valhallans' longcoat stuffed with flak plates is just a different 'pattern' than a Cadians' full on body armor.

Not even then. Some regiments don't even use it, many Catachan's and regiments from primitive worlds like Kanak. When Catachan's *had* their own rules, they had 6+sv's not the Flak 5+.

Very few are the regiments entirely decked out in Carapace Armor or Cameloline. And both are usually specialist regiments formed for a specific purpose.

Which again, given the size of the Imperial Guard, means potentially many tens or hundreds of thousands of regiments consisting of billions of soldiers.

if we're talking about how individual SM chapters get their own books simply for how they field certain troops, that's more than enough difference right there.

So what? Are you going to tell me that the make-up of, say, a culture like the Mordians is different than the Cadians? They're both effectively worlds 'under siege' and breed that warrior mentality.
To think that 'sheer diversity of ancient cultures' won't necessarily breed multiple examples of the same thing is silly.

Certainly not any less so than the loyalist SM books. There could be more than enough between those two worlds to make a book at least as different as C:BA is from C:SM if one wanted to. Not hard to find RL examples of similar technology/industrial base/oppressive military states' armies with significant differences in how their armies work. Look at WW2 with the Red Army versus the Wehrmacht.

Except that's BS when you come down to it. The training of the Guard is done by the Munitorum, but almost always are they trained first as those 'conscript horde regiments of many tens or hundreds of thousands of troops'. As time goes on, the regiment may receive more specialized training--or they received it to begin with because they were founded for a specific purpose.

No, It is the planetary Imperial Commander's responsibility to train and equip troops for the Munitorum to take and use. The Munitorum may provide additional training if required, or sometimes step in and directly do so in special cases, but it's typically the job of the whatever world they come from to train and equip them.

There are many examples of such varied regiments as the hundreds of thousands strong conscript horde. The current book talks about such units when describing the reasons for the variation between regiments.

You know, here's the biggest problem I have with that example.
The "Cadian standard" is actually far beyond what the Codex shows. You've got the Kasrkin, they Whiteshields, et all. They were done a grave injustice by not actually being presented in a proper format, and leading to this idea that Cadia is a 'cookie cutter' army.

The Kasrkin are Stormtroopers trained on Cadia from their ranks instead of through the Schola. Whiteshields are Conscripts/trainees. Not seeing what the problem is, besides the fact that both of those units aren't exactly great given their current rules.

I'm aware of that. But I was meaning with the most recent Dark Angels book; which the intent was to have a way to field the 'Deathwing' and 'Ravenwing', or equivalents of that nature.

Ah ok.

It's never explicitly been stated, as far as I know. But it's always been a point that they make of "the Dark Angels, unlike many Chapters, can still field examples of Pre-Heresy technology such as large amounts of plasma weaponry".

Other than the blurb describing the Plasma Gun in the current DA book wargear section about often taking PG's from armory because of their firepower (not necessarily that this is any more or less so than other chapters), and the fact that with the Index Astartes they could swap a Lascannon for a Plasma Cannon in Tactical squads (before that was a widespread option for SM armies, and no explanation was given) I don't see much that really says much about a preference for plasma weapons in any DA codex or their Index Astartes article.

The biggest problem with the idea that 'Guard could be broken into multiple codices' is simply that Guard are adaptable. They don't get to have the egos of the Astartes when it comes to being told what to do. A Light Infantry Regiment may be told to put on Carapace Armor and go man the trenches, while a Mechanized unit may be told to buck up and foot slog it.

So just because they can be ordered (and thus follow a chain of command and make use of that discipline) to do something else given the circumstances or commanders incapable of taking advantage of their properties, means that they shouldn't have rules where because the SM's won't follow such orders they *need* them?

sourclams wrote:PP managed to pull off all of the things which you are stating is impossible/stupid/less than ideal with their Mk2 re-tooling and their sales, by all accounts, appear to be soaring.

What, they release new rules & models continuously for their existing factions? Seems kinda bizarre to instantly obsolete their elaborate and pricey Force books? As it is, doesn't WM has only like 5 factions?

Generally what PP does, and many other wargames, is they come out with a new edition and a general base army book for each faction or one book containing the basics of all factions, and then they add more stuff as time goes on. When they go to another edition, the stuff that was "expansion" stuff gets incorporated into the base army for the new edition or redone in a different fashion and new things are again added.

Backfire wrote:
All the fluff which you have read dozens of times in different versions over last 20 years and are sick of, is completely new for someone who starts the game anew. As for quality, all the 3rd edition books I've read have little fluff, and it's generally terrible, compared to newer books.

Put it all on the GW site.

Books are for crunch (because paper is a limited and limiting resource in a book), web is for fluff.

That, of course, means that GW will have to acknowledge this "Internet" thing some people have been talking about...

Doctor Optimal wrote:
Put it all on the GW site.

Books are for crunch (because paper is a limited and limiting resource in a book), web is for fluff.

That, of course, means that GW will have to acknowledge this "Internet" thing some people have been talking about...

I'm sure GW would love to do that, printing books is expensive, but they'd have to re-educate their playerbase first.

Backfire wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:
They are big enough that it could be done. There's less in a codex than there is in an issue of White Dwarf - yet they manage to put that out every month. Personally, I would LIKE them to stop writing fluff - it all exists already, and they've totally forgotten how to do it properly.

All the fluff which you have read dozens of times in different versions over last 20 years and are sick of, is completely new for someone who starts the game anew. As for quality, all the 3rd edition books I've read have little fluff, and it's generally terrible, compared to newer books.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm not saying don't put fluff in the codex, I'm saying you don't need a novella's worth.

VoidAngel wrote:
Regarding the second: no, you drive sales for existing models with books. It works better, and is cheaper. You release new models when they are ready. They will still sell.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. Good luck selling models without rules for them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm talking about new models for existing units. You wait to put in totally new units until the next full release (edition of the game). Alternatively, you publish the rules for the unit on the web or *gasp* put them in the box.

VoidAngel wrote:
Regarding the third: Tournament players will be up to date, causal players will be up to date or won't care. Either way, little harm done. There won't be a "half dozen PDFs for each army". You're exaggerating.

You are completely underestimating the effort what it takes to stay on top of metagame if everything changes every two months. Contrary to what has been said, releasing a new Codex for some other army is NOT the same. What changes have IG players, for example, made to their lists due to three books released since that? Very little.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, I am - because I don't care about the 'metagame'. This is a hobby for crying outloud, not a job! Tournament players I could give a rat's ass about. They tend to do little more than screw up the 'metagame' and piss people off.

Yes, hardcore tournament players will do that. Most players won't. And it does matter, because it makes the whole ruleset environment messy, with players having whatever they printed off GW's website 4 months ago, which is less valid than what was printed last week, but more up-to-date to what year-old rules were. You would have complaints like "I bought these #%¤¤% expensive Vendettas for my army, and they increased points cost to 180 points in the Addendum 2.25 so I have to redo my army again. Gee, thanks a lot, greedy bastads."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So, if you know you are going down to your FLGS this weekend, how hard is it to consult the website beforehand? *shrug*

Vaktathi wrote:Generally what PP does, and many other wargames, is they come out with a new edition and a general base army book for each faction or one book containing the basics of all factions, and then they add more stuff as time goes on. When they go to another edition, the stuff that was "expansion" stuff gets incorporated into the base army for the new edition or redone in a different fashion and new things are again added.

Yes, but I'm interested on how PP does it in practice since people seem to take them as an example? How often those expansions come, where are they published? Because it seems to me that what PP does is not, in fact, all that much different to what GW does, it's just that their gaming universe is much more compact (so far), with far less all sort of legacy issues.

Backfire wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:
Put it all on the GW site.

Books are for crunch (because paper is a limited and limiting resource in a book), web is for fluff.

That, of course, means that GW will have to acknowledge this "Internet" thing some people have been talking about...

I'm sure GW would love to do that, printing books is expensive, but they'd have to re-educate their playerbase first.

If this were 1995, or even 2000 you would be right. But it's 2011 and most people (especially most younger players, the ones who can't recite the fluff backwards and forwards) are well acquainted with the idea of going to a website.

I joke a lot about how technophobic GW is, but there's a grain of truth to it. The re-education would be GW-side, not player-side.

I like space marines because I can make a cool chapter out of them like this









Can;t do that with eldar or any other alien race!

VoidAngel wrote:
You wait to put in totally new units until the next full release (edition of the game). Alternatively, you publish the rules for the unit on the web or *gasp* put them in the box.

And whadda ya know, this is what FW does, and majority of the playerbase ignores it.

VoidAngel wrote:
So, if you know you are going down to your FLGS this weekend, how hard is it to consult the website beforehand? *shrug*

Right, I consult the website, seeing that Land Raider Achilles is now legal for all Marine lists, so I have to put in more anti-tank, except that the latest update changed the points costs, so I have to refigure it all again. No thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Optimal wrote:
If this were 1995, or even 2000 you would be right. But it's 2011 and most people (especially most younger players, the ones who can't recite the fluff backwards and forwards) are well acquainted with the idea of going to a website.

True. And last thing they do there, is to read lengthy stories from the screen.