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That's fine.

But there are still no major changes to the game until the next edition.

Part of the purpose of spaced codex releases is that there is a major change to the scene every few months.

Backfire wrote:

Whereas it would be great if GW was faster to update really badly outdated books, all books being renewed every year would be far more disastrous. It was that gak which drove me out from MtG, entire metagame changed every 4 months. No thanks.

No, you misunderstand me. You don't renew all the books every year - just in the year following the release of a new edition.

THEN (so that things don't get stale, as Starship Captain suggests they might) - you release codex list and unit updates every few months via that internet thing (as SumYungGui suggests). These could not only be fixes to problems, but added units, configurations, or rules that let you build an alternate army. A perfect example is the old "Chapter Approved" type articles. Anyone remember those? They were all that kept me buying White Dwarf for years (then I realized that 2 pages, with a low chance it was even an army I played, for $6, then $7, then $8 - is a total waste of money, and I stopped).

VoidAngel wrote:THEN (so that things don't get stale, as Starship Captain suggests they might) - you release codex list and unit updates every few months via that internet thing (as SumYungGui suggests). These could not only be fixes to problems, but added units, configurations, or rules that let you build an alternate army.

And you're now in the MtG cycle where your army list is changing every few months.

No thanks.

We're currently in a situation where you can expect an army to last for four years but, at the same time, there is an army getting updated every few months to keep things fresh. That's a pretty nice balance, in my opinion.

I think it is basically unfair to make players of a specific army wait many years for an update to their codex.

Yes, you can have more than one army. Even so, GW should ensure that all codexes are brought up to the latest edition of rules within two years of release, and have three years of playability in them.

In effect I am promoting a new edition at the most every five years, so there would be three years of stability to allow every army to explore the game on an even playing field.

This would be best for players, though clearly it may not suit GW's business needs.

Scott-S6 wrote:
And you're now in the MtG cycle where your army list is changing every few months.

No thanks.

We're currently in a situation where you can expect an army to last for four years but, at the same time, there is an army getting updated every few months to keep things fresh. That's a pretty nice balance, in my opinion.

No, it's nothing like as sweeping a change as MtG, where single overpowered card can change the whole game. I'm not suggesting that Space Wolves suddenly get jet bikes or something. Small changes and fixes that make things interesting, not that upset the whole applecart.

Black Templars can now use the Emperor's Champion as their HQ, and take Storm Shields that work and cost the same as other Marine armies. Obviously, this has not broken the game.

You release a new codex, and it has unintended effects. You won't know that until it gets out into the wild and millions of people start screwing around with it. So, once it's clear that other codices need to be tweaked to bring things back in line...you do that. No big deal, and no one waits years for their list to be as viable as it once was.

MTG also has rotation on what cards are legal in the most popular format standard. Yes there is legacy and vintage which doesn't have rotation. I dont perceive having semi regular faq updates breaking armys if its limited to making things in older codexs work the same as thet do in the current rules.

I agree with the OP. Frankly, the Xenos are what drew me to 40k. I own 5 Xenos armies (Daemon, Necron, Ork, Nid, and Tau) and I find all of them more interesting than SM.

All the factions of SM are similar enough to put in one codex. It may be as thick as 2, but it could be done.

I hear the call of some 40kers for another Chapter of SM. Please. Another Xeno would be much more interesting.

And as far as sales? People convert from one faction to another more than buying new models. A codex, new paint job, shoulder pad and emblem and you have a "new" army. Alien armies can't be swapped like that. So GW should think about that before another chapter.

Its a game... most people like playing humans in a game. See WoW, Oblivion, etc. People like seeing people blow crap up.

That being said some people go to the extreme of space marinedom. Some people (like myself) love marines, but like all the other races as well. Plus, writing a book from a nid or orks perspective would be... uh... interesting. Its just easier to write from a "humans" eyes (marines/imperials) or the humanesque xenos (eldar)

Sure it's 'easier' but since when is good writing easy?

Which of course begs the follow on question, how would anyone writing 40k stories know? (yes I'm aware there are exceptions. take the entity as a whole)

Zid wrote:Its a game... most people like playing humans in a game. See WoW, Oblivion, etc. People like seeing people blow crap up.

That being said some people go to the extreme of space marinedom. Some people (like myself) love marines, but like all the other races as well. Plus, writing a book from a nid or orks perspective would be... uh... interesting. Its just easier to write from a "humans" eyes (marines/imperials) or the humanesque xenos (eldar)

Remember that Space Marines aren't humans. They're insane mutant space monks who live for the sole purpose of killing things. The only human faction is the Guard and I suppose the non-mutant-space-monk parts of the Inquisition codices.

Scott-S6 wrote:
We're currently in a situation where you can expect an army to last for four years but, at the same time, there is an army getting updated every few months to keep things fresh. That's a pretty nice balance, in my opinion.

Not really, maybe some of the top tier armies can keep the same build for years, but other factions have to contend with a new win button that wipes out existing builds when a new codex is released. IE, Nidzilla builds after DE came around.

Yes Marines are filled with Cheese. It not only feeds them but they are made of it.

I'd like to add that I see nothing wrong with space marines, the problem lays entirely with the half dozen space marine variants. Cut it down to two or three codices (SM, CSM, and maybe one other if it can be justified in gameplay and fluff), and the problem mostly goes away.

obsidianaura wrote:Shift marines save to 4+ and watch everyone switch armys .

Until 3rd edition they basically were. In RT they were a 4+, in 2nd ed. they were a 3+ but nearly everything had a -1 save modifier so it was an effective 4+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requia wrote:I'd like to add that I see nothing wrong with space marines, the problem lays entirely with the half dozen space marine variants. Cut it down to two or three codices (SM, CSM, and maybe one other if it can be justified in gameplay and fluff), and the problem mostly goes away.

There should basically be two books: Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, with Codex Space Marines containing all the rules and special characters for ALL major Space Marine chapters, and rules for making your own, and Codex Chaos Space Marines comprising ALL major CSM Legions AND Chaos Daemons.

Charge more for each book. Don't really care, just release them all at the same time so the rotation gets pinched a bit.

There's really no reason at all to combine Daemons and CSM. They play in a fundamentally different way, and have a very different fluff.

Requia wrote:There's really no reason at all to combine Daemons and CSM. They play in a fundamentally different way, and have a very different fluff.

Both of the above posts are on the money.

Its not Space Marines themselves, but theres not enough attempts to get people to try non-Human armies.

Yes, Space Marines have to be the poster boys. Yes, fiction has to be focused from the point of view of the Imperium. But...wheres the incentive to play alot of the Xenos armies, when alot of these armies haven't nearly as much fluff as the human armies (and most of it coming from the point of the view of the Imperium)

I play Imperium races exclusively, but even I can see that it isn't surprising that there isn't more Xeno players; Its GW's fault entirely.

The fluff isn't the only disincentive. Why buy a Xeno army knowing you have a fair chance of going more years than fingers one one hand without any sort of update, FAQ, internet update, model release, sideways look or second thought from GW when you can buy another pack of dudes with power armor, bolters and chain swords and get your rules fixed every few months for the cost of a new codex? It's really not a balanced decision and many people just take the path of least resistance to the goal of winning all the time.

The thing is, I fail to see why, if Space Marines get 6 Codicies for every color of their Power-Armored Freak rainbow, that other armies shouldn't get similar amounts of literature.

My beloved Guard, for example, could see a 'dex specific to Light Infantry and Jungle Fighters (Tanith or Belladon, and possibly Tallaran as well). Another one specific to Mechanized armies (Steel Legion, or other flavors of Tallaran, maybe Valhallan). A third for Drop Troops and other airmoble units (Elysians or Harkoni, or perhaps the Elysian/Catachan "Prosan" units). Since this current 'dex essentially builds Cadian units, that one is covered.

But hey! What about Penal Legions? I don't mean, "take 6 Penal Troop Squads and call it a day", I mean actual Penal Legions. What about Death Corps of Krieg? What about a Rough Rider army? What about Skitaari?

I'm aware that some of these already kinda exist, but the ones that do (Death Corps of Krieg and Elysians) are, to my knowledge, based on the last Guard 'dex, so I don't think they count.

Now, of the existing Space Marines codicies, the bulk of them should be, as others have stated, combined into one. Honestly, the Dark Angels and Blood Angels are both Codex Astartes chapters, and should thus be folded into Codex: Space Marines. Have a few pages to detail the handful of differences and you're good.

I would also say that Black Templars belong there too, but I would be content with the Black Templars and Space Wolves being in the same codex along with the other divergent chapters.

Nevertheless, I fail to see how the lavish treatment granted to one army cannot be extended to other armies, and I also do not see WHY such treatment shouldn't be extended to other armies.

^THIS!

I've wondered that for many years. If books sell models, and books are cheaper to print than new models are to sculpt or produce...why are there not codices bursting from the shelves? It's not like they play test them. ;-D

SumYungGui wrote:The fluff isn't the only disincentive. Why buy a Xeno army knowing you have a fair chance of going more years than fingers one one hand without any sort of update, FAQ, internet update, model release, sideways look or second thought from GW when you can buy another pack of dudes with power armor, bolters and chain swords and get your rules fixed every few months for the cost of a new codex? It's really not a balanced decision and many people just take the path of least resistance to the goal of winning all the time.

This.

My buddy has a rather extensive, fully painted Marine collection that have seen a lot of play as C:SM and SW. If he wanted, he could go BT or BA easily.

No change in paint scheme required, maybe a swap in wargear, but as long as you've got Marines, you've got the baseline off of which to play whatever you want.

Tau can't do that. Nor Necrons, nor any other xenos race unless you're willing to do extensive modifications or counts-as work.

Ogiwan wrote:The thing is, I fail to see why, if Space Marines get 6 Codicies....

QFT.

I mean, GW fluff itself states that there is an infinite variety of the nearly infinite number of guard regiments, so why only one list option for them, while a super-secret, super-elite genetically-enhanced horde of semi-humans that supposedly number under one million AND have a very specific order they're supposed to organize along, have a near-infinite number of options provided them?

thebaroness wrote:

Ogiwan wrote:The thing is, I fail to see why, if Space Marines get 6 Codicies....

QFT.

I mean, GW fluff itself states that there is an infinite variety of the nearly infinite number of guard regiments, so why only one list option for them, while a super-secret, super-elite genetically-enhanced horde of semi-humans that supposedly number under one million AND have a very specific order they're supposed to organize along, have a near-infinite number of options provided them?

Probably because, despite what you seem to think, very few Guard Regiments actually vary wildly from the Codex form?

The ones that do are in a little series of books called "Imperial Armour"...

I Love my daemons and hate CSM. So no...don't even think about combining them.

As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture. And Imperial Armor isn't generally considered usable, or at least much less so than the main codices. Guard are possibly the only faction with much justification to have multiple codices, while Space Marines have exactly no justification to do so.

Edit: obviously with the exception of Chaos Marines, being insane, twisted version of the bland base marines, with some token daemons and whatnot. Traitor Guard, or another human chaos faction would be interesting, but eh...

If anything, I'd like to see, not a Codex Catachans, Codex Cadians, etc. etc. but either a doctrinal thing, or a special character that lets you choose special rules to make your army ACT more like the army you're supposed to be. Kinda like with Space Marines and chapter tactics...

Space Marines get more codices because they are COOLER! Period. You can prove it scientifically to a billion decimal places.

/snark off

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As opposed to the giant mutant space monks, who all originate from the same single person, who all use identical equipment that they've used for ten thousand years, and who all fight in exactly the same way that they've fought for ten thousand years (that is to say, with all the tactical acumen of a brick)?

Space Marines are all identical. Guard regiments vary radically from planet to planet, due to variations in resources and culture. And Imperial Armor isn't generally considered usable, or at least much less so than the main codices. Guard are possibly the only faction with much justification to have multiple codices, while Space Marines have exactly no justification to do so.

Edit: obviously with the exception of Chaos Marines, being insane, twisted version of the bland base marines, with some token daemons and whatnot. Traitor Guard, or another human chaos faction would be interesting, but eh...

Obviously you know nothing about the game from a background perspective. Nothing. Do I bother listing the main differences for you? Nah, you're sure you're right.

Yes, there should be many more codices for many more factions, but you don't need to take away Marine options and books or models to do so. Personally, I'd LOVE to see Chaos Tau. Exodites. More variability in Guard. You name it, I want the book. If I like the rules enough, I'll buy/field/convert the models.

SumYungGui wrote:The fluff isn't the only disincentive. Why buy a Xeno army knowing you have a fair chance of going more years than fingers one one hand without any sort of update, FAQ, internet update, model release, sideways look or second thought from GW when you can buy another pack of dudes with power armor, bolters and chain swords and get your rules fixed every few months for the cost of a new codex? It's really not a balanced decision and many people just take the path of least resistance to the goal of winning all the time.

Perhaps, if you play generic Marines as "counts as <insert latest cheese here>", but if you faithfully stick with your favourite non- Codex Marine chapter, they if anything are slower at getting upgrades than Xeno books.

The real problem. The real underlying issue here, is the method in which codices are released.

When Dungeons and Dragons releases a new edition, they release ALL of the core books together.

When Games Workshop releases new editions, they release.... a rulebook. Shortly followed by what!? Vanilla Marines.

Codices are CORE and REQUIRED rule books. Without them, we are all playing 4th edition against 5th edition rule utilizing armies.

The problem is not Space Marines, the problem is the preferential way in which new codices are released. If Games Workshop spent the time and effort to create the new rulebook, and then create ALL of the codices for that rulebook, and then released them together, you wouldn't have rampant "flavor of the month"-ism and some codices being overpowered as all ki'lkn and others being semi-competetive and still others being nigh-useless in the face of overwhelming fan-wankery.

Effectively.... don't hate the player, hate the game. (but please, continue playing, I've spent too much money for this hobby to go tits-up.)

Words words words.

Those that are making valid arguements deserve praise.

Those of you hating on Space marines just to hate on space marines...grow up.