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Manchu wrote:The trouble is they could also say "Hm, I don't like that Emperor fellow . . ."

The IoM is doing fine. Nothing to worry about here. Go back to your hablock and rest up before your shift in the manufactorum tomorrow. And no more of this traitor talk, or I'm reporting you to the Arbites.

Now who lacks faith? If there's one Legion we can rely on its the boys in blue. As mentioned before 6-7 of The Loyalist Legions had some worrying stuff about them after the Heresy but The Ultramarines did not. And most of the remaining Space Marines were actual card carrying Ultramarines. Saying I trust Guilliman completely is pretty much the opposite of traitor talk.
I guess in the end though Guilliman didn't trust himself.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I guess in the end though Guilliman didn't trust himself.

How could any Primarch after Horus? Now consider that the Emperor is out of commission. When we describe these things as "world shattering," it's not an overstatement. The Imperium itself teetered on the brink but one man's self-confidence is in tact? Now that would be a bad sign for said person, at least regarding his true loyalty.

I guess Guilliman was a fan of George Washington and the boys. He thinks we need checks and balances and then checks for those balances to guard against tyranny. However, I think all of them were overly cautious. In Guilliman's case he may have made the IoM Marine-Heresy-proof (there seems to be a double standard for the Imperial Army and Mechanicum who had the same treason rate) but made them weak to external threats. He put the Imperium in a defensive posture that they would never come out of and then went to bed.
Anyways, going around in circles now but I guess I got it off my chest

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Agreed.
Only thing I can think of that's going through Guiiliman's mind is:
1) Rogal Dorn appears to be going crazy: He put his entire Body in a Pain Glove and appears to be muttering a lot.
2) Sigismund appears to be going Crazy: He would destroy his legion for Vengeance.
3) Corax appears to be going crazy: His tampering with The Emperor's blessed Gene Seed is worrisome in a Fulgrim-like way.
4) Are the Blood Angels going Crazy? They sure seem angry lately...
5) Will just have to hold it together ourselves Vulkan? Vulkan? Vulkan where are you!?
6) Iron Hands: You seem to be getting pretty buddy buddy with Mars there...
7) Well at least all the Dark Angels are loyal and transparent in their dealings.

I guess I could see how from Guilliman's point of view The Primarches and Astartes seemed to be suffering from some heavy PTSD...

The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

Orblivion wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Agreed.
Only thing I can think of that's going through Guiiliman's mind is:
1) Rogal Dorn appears to be going crazy: He put his entire Body in a Pain Glove and appears to be muttering a lot.
2) Sigismund appears to be going Crazy: He would destroy his legion for Vengeance.
3) Corax appears to be going crazy: His tampering with The Emperor's blessed Gene Seed is worrisome in a Fulgrim-like way.
4) Are the Blood Angels going Crazy? They sure seem angry lately...
5) Will just have to hold it together ourselves Vulkan? Vulkan? Vulkan where are you!?
6) Iron Hands: You seem to be getting pretty buddy buddy with Mars there...
7) Well at least all the Dark Angels are loyal and transparent in their dealings.

I guess I could see how from Guilliman's point of view The Primarches and Astartes seemed to be suffering from some heavy PTSD...

The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

I'm not sure there's any proof he waited to split his Legion. I think he may have actually split his up first to show the way and lead by example. Which is probably why the other Primarches and Legions did eventually follow through. So I think his intentions were pure.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Orblivion wrote:The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

I'm not sure there's any proof he waited to split his Legion. I think he may have actually split his up first to show the way and lead by example. Which is probably why the other Primarches and Legions did eventually follow through. So I think his intentions were pure.

There is no proof that he did split his legion first, but there is proof that he threatened the Primarchs who were against his reform. His aggressiveness hardly indicates someone who had just relinquished command over the vast majority of his forces.

Orblivion wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Orblivion wrote:The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

I'm not sure there's any proof he waited to split his Legion. I think he may have actually split his up first to show the way and lead by example. Which is probably why the other Primarches and Legions did eventually follow through. So I think his intentions were pure.

There is no proof that he did split his legion first, but there is proof that he threatened the Primarchs who were against his reform. His aggressiveness hardly indicates someone who had just relinquished command over the vast majority of his forces.

It's definately an important question: Who Chaptered First? I think that if it wasn't the ultramarines (or one of the early adopters who believed in it) it implies it was at gunpoint which I don't really get from the narrative.
Also for some of these decimated Legions it can be seen as self defense. "You want me to split my Legion of 2,900 into 3 chapters and you split your full strength into like several hundred thousand? Sure whatever, Deal".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes but of course the BT don't even pretend to be Codex. They gave Guilliman the finger and said try and stop us will be busy killing heretics.

You see back in the day The Legions would be like "I don't like the cut of the jib of the Festizio System. Lets go punch it in the face." Then they would go punch it in the face and be home in time for supper. Bamn! New system for The IoM.
They've lost that ability now and don't tell me its numbers. By blood there are 600,000 Ultramarines. You could get a lot done with 600,000 Astartes (and they did back in the day we're talking 1,000,000 worlds in 300 years). Simply look at the expansion in The Imperium in those first 300 years under the Legion system vs. the last 10,000 under the Chapter system.

Um...

519th Crusade
Altid Crusade
Corinthian Crusade
Damocles Crusade
Declates Crusade
Geonide Crusade
Great Crusade
Helsreach Crusade
Hive Thetus Crusade
Jerulas Crusade
Macharian Crusade
Nimbosa Crusade
Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf
Palatine Crusade
Sabbat Worlds Crusade
Ullanor Crusade
Vinculus Crusade

shealyr wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes but of course the BT don't even pretend to be Codex. They gave Guilliman the finger and said try and stop us will be busy killing heretics.

You see back in the day The Legions would be like "I don't like the cut of the jib of the Festizio System. Lets go punch it in the face." Then they would go punch it in the face and be home in time for supper. Bamn! New system for The IoM.
They've lost that ability now and don't tell me its numbers. By blood there are 600,000 Ultramarines. You could get a lot done with 600,000 Astartes (and they did back in the day we're talking 1,000,000 worlds in 300 years). Simply look at the expansion in The Imperium in those first 300 years under the Legion system vs. the last 10,000 under the Chapter system.

Um...

519th Crusade
Altid Crusade
Corinthian Crusade
Damocles Crusade
Declates Crusade
Geonide Crusade
Great Crusade
Helsreach Crusade
Hive Thetus Crusade
Jerulas Crusade
Macharian Crusade
Nimbosa Crusade
Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf
Palatine Crusade
Sabbat Worlds Crusade
Ullanor Crusade
Vinculus Crusade

That list proves your point, but it also serves his point in a sense. Disregarding the Great Crusade and Ullanor Crusade(why is this not just sectioned under Great Crusade?), only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion. This also helps the point I made earlier that the Astartes have been reduced to a largely reactionary force, they no longer serve to expand the Imperium.

Orblivion wrote:

shealyr wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes but of course the BT don't even pretend to be Codex. They gave Guilliman the finger and said try and stop us will be busy killing heretics.

You see back in the day The Legions would be like "I don't like the cut of the jib of the Festizio System. Lets go punch it in the face." Then they would go punch it in the face and be home in time for supper. Bamn! New system for The IoM.
They've lost that ability now and don't tell me its numbers. By blood there are 600,000 Ultramarines. You could get a lot done with 600,000 Astartes (and they did back in the day we're talking 1,000,000 worlds in 300 years). Simply look at the expansion in The Imperium in those first 300 years under the Legion system vs. the last 10,000 under the Chapter system.

Um...

519th Crusade
Altid Crusade
Corinthian Crusade
Damocles Crusade
Declates Crusade
Geonide Crusade
Great Crusade
Helsreach Crusade
Hive Thetus Crusade
Jerulas Crusade
Macharian Crusade
Nimbosa Crusade
Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf
Palatine Crusade
Sabbat Worlds Crusade
Ullanor Crusade
Vinculus Crusade

That list proves your point, but it also serves his point in a sense. Disregarding the Great Crusade and Ullanor Crusade(why is this not just sectioned under Great Crusade?), only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion. This also helps the point I made earlier that the Astartes have been reduced to a largely reactionary force, they no longer serve to expand the Imperium.

Exactly, of all of those probably only the Macharian Crusade caused a temporary net gain of worlds and that was done entirely with Guardsmen.

Now lets take the Nimbosa crusade as a case study. Because chapters are small delicate things they should never be commited in whole. So its effective strength in any situation is even less than 1,000 Marines. So despite the fact that that crusade was a multi-chapter effort of "epic" scale it probably only had about 1,000 marines. Whoopti do. Now lets say Calgar commands a Legion and assigns a small portion of it, lets say 50,000 or so, to deal with that Tau problem. Pretty sure there's no more Tau and a dozen new Imperial worlds.

Orblivion wrote: Disregarding the Great Crusade . . ., only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion.

The trouble with that argument is that you can't really disregard the Great Crusade.

Wasn't the Great Crusade done by legions before they broken up into chapters?

Sure but they were just reclaiming planets the Imperium had already lost. If the Great Crusade is an offensive then so is every other crusade to reclaim lost Imperial worlds.

I was under the impression that the great crusade that the emperor/primarchs/legions went on originally was in reality just retaking worlds that had been part of an earlier "IOM" and lost before things went wrong the first time.

That is correct.

IvanTih wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Only one available, imagine now if BT gone berserk - and they have about 6,000 Space Marines. Who could possibly stand against them?

Imperial Navy(they have a fu**ton more ships than BT),Imperial Guard and Titan Legions on ground.

Not saying they wouldn't win, but I seriously doubt that the Navy could muster enough ships to stop the Templars before they cause irreparable damage. Dozens of Battle-Barges have enough firepower to smash pretty much anything they want, especially with the element of surprise.

Orblivion wrote:
That list proves your point, but it also serves his point in a sense. Disregarding the Great Crusade and Ullanor Crusade(why is this not just sectioned under Great Crusade?), only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion. This also helps the point I made earlier that the Astartes have been reduced to a largely reactionary force, they no longer serve to expand the Imperium.

Uh.... where to expand when Imperium covers much of the galaxy?
They can expand into Centaurus Arm, Cygnus Arm and Halo zone. And all of that is beyond astronomican.
However, Andromeda is open for conquest

All of human civilization collapsed into Old Night - the Imperium was a new civilization arising from the ashes and conquering worlds, many of which had humans living on them - it was legitimate offense. Sending a fleet to retake a world that has fallen to chaos is defensive - and that is what the Codex Astartes did, shift the imperium from an offensive to a defensive stance. As far as there being no where to expand, the spaces in between human controlled worlds are vast, by no means does the Imperium control as much of the galaxy as it appears to "on paper". There are entire systems the Imperium hasn't visited, not to mention alien held areas.

I personally think the Codex Astartes, especially considering the overly zealous and literal ways that it is adhered to now, was a mistake. Saying that the Imperium was almost destroyed by a few individuals wielding too much power is a severe disservice to the fact that the Imperium was saved by loyal individuals with the capability of mobilizing mass forces without all the bureaucratic nonsense that would be required in the modern Imperium.

Manchu wrote:

Orblivion wrote: Disregarding the Great Crusade . . ., only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion.

The trouble with that argument is that you can't really disregard the Great Crusade.

I disregarded the Great Crusade because it happened before the splitting of the legions, which is the key discussion here. KamikazeCanuck's point was that the Astartes no longer have the ability to take large areas of space like they did when they were still organized into legions. To try to dispute that point by including the crusade that took place while they were still legions doesn't make sense.

Rythem wrote:I was under the impression that the great crusade that the emperor/primarchs/legions went on originally was in reality just retaking worlds that had been part of an earlier "IOM" and lost before things went wrong the first time.

Manchu wrote:That is correct.

What? No, the Imperium was created in M30. Were Humans scattered on around 1,000,000 planets around the galaxy? Yes, but they were like independant city-states. The Emperor was the first to unify humanity, and he did it at boltgun point with his mighty legions.



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Bromsy wrote:All of human civilization collapsed into Old Night - the Imperium was a new civilization arising from the ashes and conquering worlds, many of which had humans living on them - it was legitimate offense. Sending a fleet to retake a world that has fallen to chaos is defensive - and that is what the Codex Astartes did, shift the imperium from an offensive to a defensive stance. As far as there being no where to expand, the spaces in between human controlled worlds are vast, by no means does the Imperium control as much of the galaxy as it appears to "on paper". There are entire systems the Imperium hasn't visited, not to mention alien held areas.

I personally think the Codex Astartes, especially considering the overly zealous and literal ways that it is adhered to now, was a mistake. Saying that the Imperium was almost destroyed by a few individuals wielding too much power is a severe disservice to the fact that the Imperium was saved by loyal individuals with the capability of mobilizing mass forces without all the bureaucratic nonsense that would be required in the modern Imperium.

yes +1!

What was the not yet Emporer doing between roughly 2,000 AD and 29,000 AD?

Kilkrazy wrote:What was the not yet Emporer doing between roughly 2,000 AD and 29,000 AD?

He was actually born around 8000 BC I believe, and honestly he was just waiting really. It wasn't until the warp storms around Terra ceased during the fall of the Eldar that he began to unify humanity.

Kilkrazy wrote:What was the not yet Emporer doing between roughly 2,000 AD and 29,000 AD?

Well around M25-M30 he was stuck on earth because of all those crazy warp storms caused by all those crazy Eldar. He had his hobbies of making Custodes and primarchs and whatnot to keep him busy. Personally, I don't believe he was around for much longer before that. He was aware of Mankind's Galaxy spanning colonization and the true nature of the warp so I do think it quite possible he was around during at least part of the big Stellar Exodus but I Definately do not think he was around during 8000BC as some claim.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Agreed.
7) Well at least all the Dark Angels are loyal and transparent in their dealings.

+1
clearly all chapters should be modeled on the Dark Angels

Splitting the legions depersonalizes the system. Before the Heresy, Legions did most fighting by themselves, they split up and recombine where appropriate. They rarely got involved with other legions and when they did they did so with mixed results. The power of character of the primarchs was too strong for them to get along very well and each legion was modeled and emulated their primarch and thus did not get along with each other. Dont Dark Angles still hate Space Wolves?

By breaking things down into 1000 men you demote the leader of such an organization to the point that his ego shrinks substantially. Sure he can win a battle, but he alone cannot win a war. To fight a war a chapter MUST combine arms with other chapters and some IG to get the job done. This teaches them humility and improves their personal skills to the point where they dont hold too many grudges.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:What was the not yet Emporer doing between roughly 2,000 AD and 29,000 AD?

Well around M25-M30 he was stuck on earth because of all those crazy warp storms caused by all those crazy Eldar. He had his hobbies of making Custodes and primarchs and whatnot to keep him busy. Personally, I don't believe he was around for much longer before that. He was aware of Mankind's Galaxy spanning colonization and the true nature of the warp so I do think it quite possible he was around during at least part of the big Stellar Exodus but I Definately do not think he was around during 8000BC as some claim.

It's established fluff that the Emperor was created when all the human shamans, witch-doctors etc. who used to reincarnate by using the Warp noticed that the Warp was being, for lack of a better word, warped, making it harder and harder for them to reincarnate. Therefore, they all comitted ritual suicide at the same time and reincarnated into a single being, the Emperor. He was born in Anatolia, modern-day Turkey, around 8000 BCE. He was definitely around during the middle-ages, as he slapped the Void Dragon silly and dumped his sorry behind on Mars around then.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's established fluff that the Emperor was created when all the human shamans, witch-doctors etc. who used to reincarnate by using the Warp noticed that the Warp was being, for lack of a better word, warped, making it harder and harder for them to reincarnate. Therefore, they all comitted ritual suicide at the same time and reincarnated into a single being, the Emperor. He was born in Anatolia, modern-day Turkey, around 8000 BCE. He was definitely around during the middle-ages, as he slapped the Void Dragon silly and dumped his sorry behind on Mars around then.

So is the One and holy Emperor this "God" people are talking about these days??!?!

spya wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's established fluff that the Emperor was created when all the human shamans, witch-doctors etc. who used to reincarnate by using the Warp noticed that the Warp was being, for lack of a better word, warped, making it harder and harder for them to reincarnate. Therefore, they all comitted ritual suicide at the same time and reincarnated into a single being, the Emperor. He was born in Anatolia, modern-day Turkey, around 8000 BCE. He was definitely around during the middle-ages, as he slapped the Void Dragon silly and dumped his sorry behind on Mars around then.

So is the One and holy Emperor this "God" people are talking about these days??!?!

No, he is not "God" as in the creator of the Universe. He has, however, appeared to humanity as several prominent leaders during the course of history, "nudging" humanity on.

Orblivion wrote:
The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

I'm not sure how you could arrive at such conclusion. After all, it was Guilliman who gave away those powers. Guilliman thought that Primarchs - and particularly he himself - had too much power. Even if Guilliman had trusted himself, he had to think about the future too. What would happen once Guilliman dies, and some other person inherits his massive legion and sweeping powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orblivion wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Orblivion wrote: Disregarding the Great Crusade . . ., only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion.

The trouble with that argument is that you can't really disregard the Great Crusade.

I disregarded the Great Crusade because it happened before the splitting of the legions, which is the key discussion here. KamikazeCanuck's point was that the Astartes no longer have the ability to take large areas of space like they did when they were still organized into legions. To try to dispute that point by including the crusade that took place while they were still legions doesn't make sense.

This logic does not hold. First of all, it's entirely possible that Great Crusade simply reached the limits of the available logistical capabilities and it was not possible to continue expanding at same pace. If you look at historical empires, at some point they reached similar limits to their expansion. Roman Empire is a prime example. Just the Astronomicon and its range is a major limitation in human travel and expansion.

Second, after Heresy the Imperium had a new, powerful enemy in Traitor Legions and their ilk, with which they had to contend with less than half the military power which Emperor commanded during Crusade.

Backfire wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
The splitting of the legions was hypocritical though. He was named Lord Commander of the Imperium, and gained control over all of the Imperium's armed forces. He then went about ensuring that no single person could ever wield as much control as Horus, even though he had just been granted that exact level of control. He threatened use of force against the Primarchs who resisted his decision and since he had conveniently not split his own legion before asking for them to do the same, he outnumbered any of the legions who might have opposed him.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before I understand the splitting of the legions, but Guilliman's motives were hardly pure.

I'm not sure how you could arrive at such conclusion. After all, it was Guilliman who gave away those powers. Guilliman thought that Primarchs - and particularly he himself - had too much power. Even if Guilliman had trusted himself, he had to think about the future too. What would happen once Guilliman dies, and some other person inherits his massive legion and sweeping powers?

I thought the same until recently. While Guilliman did split his own legion, I can't seem to find anything stating that he ever relinquished his Commander of the Imperium position, meaning he still had a position just as powerful as Horus had before the Heresy. If he did relinquish that power then I agree with you, but I can't find anything showing that he did. If he remained Commander of the Imperium even after the splitting of the legions than the split was just hypocritical if you ask me.

Backfire wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Orblivion wrote: Disregarding the Great Crusade . . ., only 2 of those crusades brought new worlds to the Imperium. Those remaining are crusades launched to retake worlds that had previously been lost, they can't really be seen as expansion.

The trouble with that argument is that you can't really disregard the Great Crusade.

I disregarded the Great Crusade because it happened before the splitting of the legions, which is the key discussion here. KamikazeCanuck's point was that the Astartes no longer have the ability to take large areas of space like they did when they were still organized into legions. To try to dispute that point by including the crusade that took place while they were still legions doesn't make sense.

This logic does not hold. First of all, it's entirely possible that Great Crusade simply reached the limits of the available logistical capabilities and it was not possible to continue expanding at same pace. If you look at historical empires, at some point they reached similar limits to their expansion. Roman Empire is a prime example. Just the Astronomicon and its range is a major limitation in human travel and expansion.

Second, after Heresy the Imperium had a new, powerful enemy in Traitor Legions and their ilk, with which they had to contend with less than half the military power which Emperor commanded during Crusade.

The Great Crusade ended because of the Heresy though, not because of the reaches of the Astronomican, and they really weren't showing any signs of slowing. Maybe the Astronomican cannot reach as far as it once did now that the Emperor is in his current condition? Regardless, my point wasn't necessarily that they don't expand any more, it was that the ability for the Astartes to expand the Imperium was crippled by the splitting of the legions. The splitting of the legions did exactly as intended, it curbed the power of each individual group of Astartes, and that is why they have been relegated to a reactionary force. Most crusades that they undertake at this point is to retake Imperial worlds that were recently lost. Those can really only be described as defensive actions.

The heresy exploited weaknesses in the loyalist legions specifically in the gene seed. If splitting the legions into chapters wasn't a good idea then what would've been a good idea to ensure something like the heresy didn't happen again?