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Was Codex Astartes, more specifically its most controversial edict: that the Legions be split into Chapters of 1000 Marines the right decision?

Space Marines are unreliable mutants. If they must be kept around, then best they be weakened and scattered to the winds where they can't do further harm, so yes.

It wasn't a good decision, but it might have been the best one available. When you've just seen literally half the people you trust most in the world turn traitor and try to kill the other half you probably wanna take some precautions. When each Primarch turned traitor they took , what, 80+% of there legion with them? And those were Primarchs, supposedly the best. The Blood Angels have lost there Primarch and are acting funny, I think the Dark Angels had already lost theres too by the time the legions were broken up. And of course a couple of others were already out. Those Legions were being led by regular Space Marines. What happened when more Primarchs went?

If the leader of a Legion went, the best possibly result would be internal fighting leaving the Legion gutted and useless for years. The worst would be another Legion, this one with the latest armour and equipment, marching to the Eye of Terror and leaving the Imperium thousands of Marines weaker.

With the Chapters, the Imperium looses, at worst, a thousand Marines in most cases. A thousand Marines can be hunted, killed off and replaced. A Legion is going to take another Legion to defeat, plus a good chunk of other Imperial forces.

As it is, in at least the cases of the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines there is still a certain level of inter connection between the parent Chapter and those founded from it. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the others have a similar level of connection. You could probably form something close to a Legion sized force fairly fast if it was needed.

Additionally, it of course allows us hobbyists to invent and justify almost any colour scheme and background imaginable for our 'Marines! I've only ever made one 'codex' Marine army (my Space Wolves) - the rest are custom concepts.

Jon Garrett wrote:It wasn't a good decision, but it might have been the best one available. When you've just seen literally half the people you trust most in the world turn traitor and try to kill the other half you probably wanna take some precautions. When each Primarch turned traitor they took , what, 80+% of there legion with them? And those were Primarchs, supposedly the best. The Blood Angels have lost there Primarch and are acting funny, I think the Dark Angels had already lost theres too by the time the legions were broken up. And of course a couple of others were already out. Those Legions were being led by regular Space Marines. What happened when more Primarchs went?

If the leader of a Legion went, the best possibly result would be internal fighting leaving the Legion gutted and useless for years. The worst would be another Legion, this one with the latest armour and equipment, marching to the Eye of Terror and leaving the Imperium thousands of Marines weaker.

With the Chapters, the Imperium looses, at worst, a thousand Marines in most cases. A thousand Marines can be hunted, killed off and replaced. A Legion is going to take another Legion to defeat, plus a good chunk of other Imperial forces.

As it is, in at least the cases of the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines there is still a certain level of inter connection between the parent Chapter and those founded from it. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the others have a similar level of connection. You could probably form something close to a Legion sized force fairly fast if it was needed.

+1

It's wasn't necessarily a good decision or a bad decision. It was simply the only decision available. You just had over half of the Legions turn to Chaos, the Emperor killed, and Terra (like the whole Imperium) in ruins. The very thought of something like it happening again is an impossible one to accept. It had to be done.

I'd vote yes. the Space Marine geneseed is unstable at best and prone to mutation. if one chapter goes, you can simply have another. Weird that I'm saying SM is expendable.

I think it was a good decision.

Only one available, imagine now if BT gone berserk - and they have about 6,000 Space Marines. Who could possibly stand against them?

I think Codex:Astartes provided vital support and structure to the legions who had lost a primarch (BA, IH, poss RG(not sure how soon Corax went AWOL)) giving them something to do in the wake of tragedy, It also made the astartes more flexible and allowed them to spread out in groups autonomously across the IoM allowing for more rapid deployment,

Remember that the warp was much more stable during the Crusade than it is now, Legions could travel relatively quickly and efficiently through the imaterium now however it would take too long for a legion to travel and reach destinations so it makes more sense for the astartes to be more spread out, Whether Gulliman had this in mind when he wrote the thing is a different matter.

Brother Coa wrote:Only one available, imagine now if BT gone berserk - and they have about 6,000 Space Marines. Who could possibly stand against them?

Imperial Navy(they have a fu**ton more ships than BT),Imperial Guard and Titan Legions on ground.

Realistically if a single chapter is so awesome, splitting the force into 10 times as many separate units, each being self-supporting, merely multiplies your security issue by 10.

Given that security completely missed the Chaos danger first time around, it's surprising that lots more chapters haven't defected to Chaos. You could argue that the ones who had that inclination have gone and done it.

OTOH, if single chapters are not so awesome and are not self-supporting, you've multiplied your logistics problem by 10 and reduced the strength of your strategic deployment too.

On that basis, the codex wasn't a good idea, and it was a bad idea.

IvanTih wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Only one available, imagine now if BT gone berserk - and they have about 6,000 Space Marines. Who could possibly stand against them?

Imperial Navy(they have a fu**ton more ships than BT),Imperial Guard and Titan Legions on ground.

In one sector or system?
I doubt that Imperials could raise some serious armed forces to stop them before they do some serious damage.

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically if a single chapter is so awesome, splitting the force into 10 times as many separate units, each being self-supporting, merely multiplies your security issue by 10.

Given that security completely missed the Chaos danger first time around, it's surprising that lots more chapters haven't defected to Chaos. You could argue that the ones who had that inclination have gone and done it.

OTOH, if single chapters are not so awesome and are not self-supporting, you've multiplied your logistics problem by 10 and reduced the strength of your strategic deployment too.

On that basis, the codex wasn't a good idea, and it was a bad idea.

It's about fragmenting the power of the Astartes as a whole. Small, independent units don't pose as much a threat of rebellion as monolithic legions, while each individual organization is left at a number where it might conceivably be able to harm your enemies, at least if it's working in concert with your other forces.

A single chapter turning on you is only a loss of one thousandth of your Marines (themselves under a billionth of your armed forces in all). A legion turning could be upwards of 5% of your Marines, especially if new legions weren't formed to replace those that had turned to chaos originally, as well as any planetary forces, local navy fleets, and Guard regiments stationed in territory they controlled. That's much more dangerous, and their increased numbers, all united under one banner, would mean the territory they control would be much larger, too, meaning even more of the rest of your forces would go with them.

The loss of a single Legion dooms an entire strain of gene seed which would probably be the biggest problem. Also, having many Chapters means 2 things. If the Chapters split every once in awhile, then soon there would be more Space Marines than you started with. Also, their power is spread across a large area, yet with Warp Travel they can come together fairly quickly. Plus, each can specilize in the specific jobs their Chapter was formed to do. The Lamentors for example were created to watch over a certain area.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Realistically if a single chapter is so awesome, splitting the force into 10 times as many separate units, each being self-supporting, merely multiplies your security issue by 10.

Given that security completely missed the Chaos danger first time around, it's surprising that lots more chapters haven't defected to Chaos. You could argue that the ones who had that inclination have gone and done it.

OTOH, if single chapters are not so awesome and are not self-supporting, you've multiplied your logistics problem by 10 and reduced the strength of your strategic deployment too.

On that basis, the codex wasn't a good idea, and it was a bad idea.

It's about fragmenting the power of the Astartes as a whole. Small, independent units don't pose as much a threat of rebellion as monolithic legions, while each individual organization is left at a number where it might conceivably be able to harm your enemies, at least if it's working in concert with your other forces.

A single chapter turning on you is only a loss of one thousandth of your Marines (themselves under a billionth of your armed forces in all). A legion turning could be upwards of 5% of your Marines, especially if new legions weren't formed to replace those that had turned to chaos originally, as well as any planetary forces, local navy fleets, and Guard regiments stationed in territory they controlled. That's much more dangerous, and their increased numbers, all united under one banner, would mean the territory they control would be much larger, too, meaning even more of the rest of your forces would go with them.

I know that.

My point is that if you can't keep a close enough eye on 10 legions' headquarters to stop them turning, what makes you think you will be able to keep an eye on 100 chapters' headquarters.

You don't. From what I've seen, the Space Marines are independent from the Imperial command structure. Sure, they tend to show up here and there, but it mostly takes the form of "Captain Smurf, I heard smurfed there are Xenosmurfs on planet Smurf 5, why don't you take smurf a couple of Smurf squads and wipe smurf them out?" at which point, Captain Smurf takes his couple dozen smurfs and attacks the most heavily fortified target he can find via drop pod, at which point all the smurfs stand in the open shooting at things*, while the tens of thousands of guardsmen, with their heavy armor, gunships, artillery, and rudimentary or better grasp of primitive combined arms strategy, do the real work of wiping out the hundreds of thousands or millions of hostiles. The smurfs kill a few dozen surprised targets, while suffering heavy casualties that "are totally a loss for the Imperium and stuff."

Presumably, were they still in unified legions, a chapter would be an effective sized task force to support conventional troops, but, being effectively independent from Imperial command, a Legion, with its larger army and probably domain over numerous worlds, likely supported with any other Imperial forces stationed within their territory, might well decide that it should have more power, or its leader(s) might fall to chaos, with everyone else blindly following them, meaning you have the equivalent of fifty or more chapters, at least, plus a sub-sector's worth of Guardsmen and navy vessels, all following a single cabal of traitors against you. With the legions broken up into chapters, they can still mobilize to provide support for Imperial forces, yet if any one leader falls to chaos, taking the chapter with him, no one else follows them, and they are thus either limited in the damage they can do before fleeing Imperial space, or are quickly rounded up and destroyed.

* Has this interesting (if it's true) bit about Space Marines:

One of the older editions of the codex included a line to the effect that "the history of the Astartes is filled with defiant last stands and suicidal actions, most of which were probably unnecessary."

I think it was a bad idea. The Chapters are now roving bands of "troubleshooters" rather than the galactic force shaping Mankind's future like they were. Did half the Astartes go crazy? Yes, but I think we can call that a teaching moment. I think Guilliman should have remained Lord Commander of the Imperium: effectively The 2nd Emperor.

The problem with that is he becomes the focus of the Chaos Gods as Horus did before him. Yes, he may have been a lot more difficult to corrupt in the end of the day, but Horus started out as a noble warrior with humanity's best interests at heart. Eventually, Guilliman might have fallen too.

This way, no matter how dramatic, no one can take more than a thousand Marines with them. Theortically the Black Templars could take 6000+ with them but it doesn't seem likely that, given how disperesed there Crusades are, that the entire Chapter would fall. As an added bonus it means that no one Chapter can muster more forces than the Grey Knights, there watch dog.

...until GW puts out the next codex explaining how dozens of them have fallen to Chaos or some such crap...

Jon Garrett wrote:As an added bonus it means that no one Chapter can muster more forces than the Grey Knights, there watch dog.

...until GW puts out the next codex explaining how dozens of them have fallen to Chaos or some such crap...

GK don't watch over the Astartes, they are part of Ordo Malleus not Ordo Hereticus.

OT: I'm 50/50 on the legion split. On the one hand, I understand why they did it and I agree for the most part. On the other hand, it turned the large majority of the Astartes into a reactionary force, who really only respond to the actions of the Imperium's enemies.

It just seems as though Guilliman had little faith in the remaining Astartes who had proven their loyalty completely. Plus look at the state of Ultramar compared to everywhere else in The Imperium. Guilliman gets my vote for President!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think it was a bad idea. The Chapters are now roving bands of "troubleshooters" rather than the galactic force shaping Mankind's future like they were. Did half the Astartes go crazy? Yes, but I think we can call that a teaching moment. I think Guilliman should have remained Lord Commander of the Imperium: effectively The 2nd Emperor.

I go along with this.

The IoM took its best organised force and broke it down into penny packets incapable of truly decisive action, but at the same time more vulnerable to Chaos take-over than before, and set up for commando action against the IoM's ruling elite if they did turn.

This was done at a time when Chaos was mainly confined to a small area, and could make a breakout attempt with a spearhead of solid, well organised SM legions.

Reliance on the IG as the premier force based military strategy and tactics on mass action, meaning that a few Chaos agents in the right places would be able to influence the movement of
billions of troops.

When you think about the idea objectively, it gets worse all the time.

It was an excellent idea. We have ten thousand years of evidence. Marine Chapters are entirely capable of decisive action on the scale of an individual battle. There is no need to have them fighting entire wars outside of the context of the IG and other Imperial forces. This would be like replacing the US Army with the Marine Corps. Yes, the Marine Corps is great at what it does. But they are pretty poor at what the Army does.

One could ask in a similar vein whether ensuring that the IG rely on the Imperial Navy for transportation was a bad idea.

Agreed.
Only thing I can think of that's going through Guiiliman's mind is:
1) Rogal Dorn appears to be going crazy: He put his entire Body in a Pain Glove and appears to be muttering a lot.
2) Sigismund appears to be going Crazy: He would destroy his legion for Vengeance.
3) Corax appears to be going crazy: His tampering with The Emperor's blessed Gene Seed is worrisome in a Fulgrim-like way.
4) Are the Blood Angels going Crazy? They sure seem angry lately...
5) Will just have to hold it together ourselves Vulkan? Vulkan? Vulkan where are you!?
6) Iron Hands: You seem to be getting pretty buddy buddy with Mars there...
7) Well at least all the Dark Angels are loyal and transparent in their dealings.

I guess I could see how from Guilliman's point of view The Primarches and Astartes seemed to be suffering from some heavy PTSD...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:7) Well at least all the Dark Angels are loyal and transparent in their dealings.

Perfect!

Manchu wrote:It was an excellent idea. We have ten thousand years of evidence. Marine Chapters are entirely capable of decisive action on the scale of an individual battle. There is no need to have them fighting entire wars outside of the context of the IG and other Imperial forces. This would be like replacing the US Army with the Marine Corps. Yes, the Marine Corps is great at what it does. But they are pretty poor at what the Army does.

One could ask in a similar vein whether ensuring that the IG rely on the Imperial Navy for transportation was a bad idea.

Bah, The Imperium was built on the backs of Marine Offensives. It's like the Galaxy is The Pacific Theatre in WW2 (planets=islands). All offensive action was done by the Marines; garrisioning is for those army guys.

Look at the mightly Sapce Marines now? They're a reactionary force. Humanity's Heaviest heavy infantry plays an ad hoc defensive role instead of its traditional proactive role. And so too went The Imperium. The Imperium grinds along in perpetual defense and quite frankly its the fault of Codex: Astartes. Their speartip had been disbanded.

Marines still operate offensively more than not. I'm not sure who has poisoned your mind, KC, but I bet it begins with a "c" and ends with "haos."

Manchu wrote:Marines still operate offensively more than not. I'm not sure who has poisoned your mind, KC, but I bet it begins with a "c" and ends with "haos."

Says the guy with green skin. They are offensive tactically but on a strategic level they wait for problems to appear then react to them. More accurately they wait for the guys in the middle of the problems to phone them and ask for help.

There are plenty of Chapters besides the BT that are on "permanent crusades." Overall, the IoM is pretty much on the defensive because they have been so successful in the first place. Yes, legions played the main role in recapturing the Imperium. But they have played no role in retaining it for ten thousand years. Chapters may have achieved as much or more than legions during the Great Crusade. But, in most cases, a Chapter is not large enough to accomodate the ego of a Primarch . . .

Yes but of course the BT don't even pretend to be Codex. They gave Guilliman the finger and said try and stop us will be busy killing heretics.

You see back in the day The Legions would be like "I don't like the cut of the jib of the Festizio System. Lets go punch it in the face." Then they would go punch it in the face and be home in time for supper. Bamn! New system for The IoM.
They've lost that ability now and don't tell me its numbers. By blood there are 600,000 Ultramarines. You could get a lot done with 600,000 Astartes (and they did back in the day we're talking 1,000,000 worlds in 300 years). Simply look at the expansion in The Imperium in those first 300 years under the Legion system vs. the last 10,000 under the Chapter system.

The trouble is they could also say "Hm, I don't like that Emperor fellow . . ."

The IoM is doing fine. Nothing to worry about here. Go back to your hablock and rest up before your shift in the manufactorum tomorrow. And no more of this traitor talk, or I'm reporting you to the Arbites.