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Whatever1 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:You guys all forget about the Mawloc. Mawlocs absolutely punish packed vehicles, as any hit (even partial hits) with that big blast template is an automatic s6 roll versus the vehicle's rear armor, even if the unit is a fast skimmer.

My brother uses the deep strike/pop up options to attack armor on their weak side. He does NOT anymore use hive guard, as he uses a reserve based army and the hive guard end up killed in the early turns. He instead has 2 units of podded zoanthropes, plus a mawloc (or 2). The spore pods he tries to deep strike within 6" of the enemy's rear/side, so that those s6 tentacles by the pod can hurt a vehicle. The Zoanthropes are his heavy armor killers, and they do quite well. He only has to immobilize a vehicle actually, as he has a lot of stealers and if the vehicle is immobilized then a stealer assault can finish it off, as all attacks autohit.

In my last GT versus him my hybrid army (with 11 vehicles) was reduced to only 2 tanks by game end. I managed to edge him ever so slightly, and it was my outflanking infantry (Capt. Al's platoon) that won the game for me.

The problem with Mawlocs is that the rules for template weapons state that unless the center hole of the marker is over the target vehicle,the weapon's S is halved. Half of S6 is 3,so it gives you no opportunity at all to drop multiple vehicles with the Mawloc,unless your opponent has bunched up so much that they can't move their vehicles out of the way of the template. The other issue is,the Mawloc doesn't have protection from Deep Strike mishaps involving terrain or the table edge,so if your oppenent is hugging the backline of their deploy zone,there's a good likelihood that he scatters off the table and gets delayed,at best.

Wrong here..the mawloc has a special rule called "Terror from the Deep" (page 51 of the dex) where it specifically mentions that EVERY unit under the template take a s6 ap2 hit, whether wholly or PARTIALLY covered by the template, and the codex supercedes the BBB.

The other issue is true in games where you have to make an objective grab then the enemy is playing right into your hands. Tourney games usually have different scenarios which need movement.

In any case, playing the reserves games is inherently a gamble, except the nids do have units that can actually do something as they come in...

Pretty much what Freddie said. Terror of the Deep doesn't state it's a shooting or cc attack (and doesn't have a shooting profile).

Although, if you hit a unit with the blast it moves to the side and you are now engaged with that unit. So would that mean if you failed to blow up the vehicle that you would be in B2B with the vehicle that combat phase?

Tomb King wrote:Although, if you hit a unit with the blast it moves to the side and you are now engaged with that unit. So would that mean if you failed to blow up the vehicle that you would be in B2B with the vehicle that combat phase?

No..you have to move it 1" away after the blast is resolved....

Nids Have allot of Anti Mech in CC. Hi Strength lots of attacks good weapons. Don't only look at Range.

coolguyswhositathome wrote:Nids Have allot of Anti Mech in CC. Hi Strength lots of attacks good weapons. Don't only look at Range.

Against most lists though you really have to take some things down at range. Chances are your whole army won't be there in B2B at the same time, so at east SOME of the enemy needs to be concerned with something else, or dead. Range is what lets you do that.

Mattlov wrote:

coolguyswhositathome wrote:Nids Have allot of Anti Mech in CC. Hi Strength lots of attacks good weapons. Don't only look at Range.

Against most lists though you really have to take some things down at range. Chances are your whole army won't be there in B2B at the same time, so at east SOME of the enemy needs to be concerned with something else, or dead. Range is what lets you do that.

Yes..and the Nids have that....but they should NOT rely on shooting alone of course...

Nids are like Orks, really. An army that can field swarms, can be shooty or assaulty, but only really does well against armor with close combat. And hey, you really shouldn't be griping about BS3. You could have it worse, trust me.

coolguyswhositathome wrote:Nids Have allot of Anti Mech in CC. Hi Strength lots of attacks good weapons. Don't only look at Range.

It's pretty easy to get tabled before you get into CC range against a tank heavy list, in particular battle cannon or storm eagle spam gets pretty horrid. The only unit that can reliably get to CC against tanks is Genestealers, and then only if your opponent doesn't avoid the table edges (though spore mine spam can help force them towards them).

Requia wrote:

coolguyswhositathome wrote:Nids Have allot of Anti Mech in CC. Hi Strength lots of attacks good weapons. Don't only look at Range.

It's pretty easy to get tabled before you get into CC range against a tank heavy list, in particular battle cannon or storm eagle spam gets pretty horrid. The only unit that can reliably get to CC against tanks is Genestealers, and then only if your opponent doesn't avoid the table edges (though spore mine spam can help force them towards them).

assuming you play the rush game with nids.....the ambush/deep strike/ outflank game is much better...

Whatever1 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:You guys all forget about the Mawloc. Mawlocs absolutely punish packed vehicles, as any hit (even partial hits) with that big blast template is an automatic s6 roll versus the vehicle's rear armor, even if the unit is a fast skimmer.

My brother uses the deep strike/pop up options to attack armor on their weak side. He does NOT anymore use hive guard, as he uses a reserve based army and the hive guard end up killed in the early turns. He instead has 2 units of podded zoanthropes, plus a mawloc (or 2). The spore pods he tries to deep strike within 6" of the enemy's rear/side, so that those s6 tentacles by the pod can hurt a vehicle. The Zoanthropes are his heavy armor killers, and they do quite well. He only has to immobilize a vehicle actually, as he has a lot of stealers and if the vehicle is immobilized then a stealer assault can finish it off, as all attacks autohit.

In my last GT versus him my hybrid army (with 11 vehicles) was reduced to only 2 tanks by game end. I managed to edge him ever so slightly, and it was my outflanking infantry (Capt. Al's platoon) that won the game for me.

The problem with Mawlocs is that the rules for template weapons state that unless the center hole of the marker is over the target vehicle,the weapon's S is halved. Half of S6 is 3,so it gives you no opportunity at all to drop multiple vehicles with the Mawloc,unless your opponent has bunched up so much that they can't move their vehicles out of the way of the template. The other issue is,the Mawloc doesn't have protection from Deep Strike mishaps involving terrain or the table edge,so if your oppenent is hugging the backline of their deploy zone,there's a good likelihood that he scatters off the table and gets delayed,at best.

It is a good thing the mawlock does not fire a blast weapon then, and instead uses the terror from the deep special rules. (Read the section blast weapons vs armour penetration.) The mawlock is a bit unreliable but it is still cool. somebody pointed out that a mawlock dies to a combat squad with powerfists while getting only 2 attacks back, but unles he backs that up with shooting the mawlock can hit and run where you want it to go. If it chacges a predator then it has done good.

How about this:

1 Tyranid Prime, Toxic Saxks, Lash Whip and Sword, Scything Tallons 105

3 Hive Guards 150
3 Hive Guards 150
2 Venom Thropes 110

13 Genestealers, 1 Blood Lord Scything Tallons 230
13 Genestealers, 1 Blood Lord Scything Tallons 230
14 Genestealers, 1 Blood Lord Scything Tallons 244

1 Tyranofex, Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines, Desicrator Larva 265
1 Tyranofex, Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines, Desicrator Larva 265

1749/1750

Not quite the same punch as the other anti leafblower list. Oh well, back to the drawing board. :-/ (I do not have the other anti leafblower list units.)

Freddie how does your brother run his list?

EDIT: Nids are not like orsk. We get no rokkits or powerfists. Have you ever seen gargoyles or gaunts try to kill a tanks? No? Did not think so. Oh you see everyone these days have tanks. Moastly we stand around outside hiping they think we are gone, and when they reploy out of the tanks we EAT THEM UP! MUNCH MUNCH MUCNH!

PS: Be shure to play in a dark non-well litt room.

His list usually has:

Tyrant with the ability to give a bonus to the reserve roll, as well as make a troop unit outflank....

2 podded zoan units
1 ymgarl unit

tervigon
10 gaunts
at least 2 genestealer units
large hormogaunt unit (he likes to outflank this unit using the special rule where a troop choice can outflank) with poisoned sacs

sometimes he runs a large gargoyle unit (deep strikes)

2 trygons and 1 mawloc, or 2 mawlocs and 1 trygon....

Key elements here for the surprise effect are the tyrgons/mawlocs, zoans, and the ymgarls..the ymgarls have won him many a game, as it can take out a key element in the enemy army with a smart choice of the deployment zone. The hive commander also gives a bonus to the reserve rolls which helps ensure that the elements pop up early...

Note he stopped using hive guard...it does not give good synergy with this list....he either reserves everything, or depending on terrain hugs cover very tightly on the first turn to survive shooting. The tervigon is an excellent objective holder on his own side of the board, and he can poop out more objective grabbers as he sees fit...

Yes I can se how the hive guards do not fitt. It is eather poding or hiveguards.

I have had luck with my ygmars since there usualy is just one areia terain in each deployment zone, that way my oponent covers ut up with units and they die upon emerging. :-(

Honestly I never run Hive Guard...or Zoans...AG Hormagaunts and Termagants have never had trouble eating through armor...all you have to do is shake the cans and you're golden. But if you want something that can pop up and take out a target...ymgarls...

Won my last tournament with that basis.

Niiai wrote:Yes I can se how the hive guards do not fitt. It is eather poding or hiveguards.

I have had luck with my ygmars since there usualy is just one areia terain in each deployment zone, that way my oponent covers ut up with units and they die upon emerging. :-(

Ah you lack terrain then...over here we play with tons of area terrain..if it's not a city ruin, it's a forest or crater...

sometimes there are tons of terrain but I have had battles with just one aria terain or what not. I agree that Ygmars are golden but withouth that garantee they are just sitting ducks.

But that's the glory of tyrainds...you either control how your opponent has to come at you or you control where you're backing them into a corner. Ymgarls are guarunteed.

ductvader wrote:But that's the glory of tyrainds...you either control how your opponent has to come at you or you control where you're backing them into a corner. Ymgarls are guarunteed.

I don't think you understood me. I have no garantee that there will be any viable aria terain when I play so I can't take them.

Niiai, you should insist your opponents play by the rules, then. 25% of your table should be covered by terrain, of which 1/3 should be area terrain. So, on a standard 6' x 4' table, there should be 288 square inches of area terrain (equivalent to 8 pieces of 6" x 6" forest, rocks, or ruins).

Ian Sturrock wrote:Niiai, you should insist your opponents play by the rules, then. 25% of your table should be covered by terrain, of which 1/3 should be area terrain. So, on a standard 6' x 4' table, there should be 288 square inches of area terrain (equivalent to 8 pieces of 6" x 6" forest, rocks, or ruins).

If only it worked like that. haha Now you just need wood elves to have that terrain move you across the battlefield

Niiai wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:You guys all forget about the Mawloc. Mawlocs absolutely punish packed vehicles, as any hit (even partial hits) with that big blast template is an automatic s6 roll versus the vehicle's rear armor, even if the unit is a fast skimmer.

My brother uses the deep strike/pop up options to attack armor on their weak side. He does NOT anymore use hive guard, as he uses a reserve based army and the hive guard end up killed in the early turns. He instead has 2 units of podded zoanthropes, plus a mawloc (or 2). The spore pods he tries to deep strike within 6" of the enemy's rear/side, so that those s6 tentacles by the pod can hurt a vehicle. The Zoanthropes are his heavy armor killers, and they do quite well. He only has to immobilize a vehicle actually, as he has a lot of stealers and if the vehicle is immobilized then a stealer assault can finish it off, as all attacks autohit.

In my last GT versus him my hybrid army (with 11 vehicles) was reduced to only 2 tanks by game end. I managed to edge him ever so slightly, and it was my outflanking infantry (Capt. Al's platoon) that won the game for me.

The problem with Mawlocs is that the rules for template weapons state that unless the center hole of the marker is over the target vehicle,the weapon's S is halved. Half of S6 is 3,so it gives you no opportunity at all to drop multiple vehicles with the Mawloc,unless your opponent has bunched up so much that they can't move their vehicles out of the way of the template. The other issue is,the Mawloc doesn't have protection from Deep Strike mishaps involving terrain or the table edge,so if your oppenent is hugging the backline of their deploy zone,there's a good likelihood that he scatters off the table and gets delayed,at best.

It is a good thing the mawlock does not fire a blast weapon then, and instead uses the terror from the deep special rules. (Read the section blast weapons vs armour penetration.) The mawlock is a bit unreliable but it is still cool. somebody pointed out that a mawlock dies to a combat squad with powerfists while getting only 2 attacks back, but unles he backs that up with shooting the mawlock can hit and run where you want it to go. If it chacges a predator then it has done good.

I stand corrected on the Terror from the Deep rule,so the Mawloc does have a chance to take out multiple vehicles,but even then,not much of one. With S6 on back armor 10,you've only got a 33% chance of getting a Penetrating hit. By law of averages,you will have to hit three vehicles to reasonably assure yourself of a penetrating hit. If you get really lucky and your oppenent doesn't plan for the Mawloc,you could possibly hit six,and by law of averages Penetrate 2 and Glance 1. After that,he most likely gets shot and/or assaulted to death. The entire strategy,as you said,is unreliable,and revolves around a good deal of dice luck.

the deep strike effect isnt a template weapon, your using the template for measurement then assigning str hits.

Mawlocs have a place in a deep strike list, since the threat of one having a 1/3rd chance of auto-killing a stingle or group of vehicles if you are playing parking lot will cause the person to spread out, and spreading out dilutes firepower.

there's alot of things in the bug codex that could have been awesome and fun (mawloc+lictor combo, trygon tunnels, pyrovores, ect) but just arent =/

You are gorrect Whatever, the chanches are very small.

With that being sead I still think its holds some mesure. If not for anything else you still get to mover around on his formations. And the threat of having the game end on turn 2 due to a lucky mawlock just seems very scary for the oponent. I am thinking of trying this out with the following list:

HQ: Tyranid Prime, Bone Sword Lash Whip, Toxic Sacks, 105

Elite 1 : 2 Hive Guards 100
Elite 2 : 2 Hive Guards 100
Elite 3 : 2 Hive Guards 100

Troop 1 : 9 Genestealers + Broodlord w. Skything Tallon 188
Troop 2 : 9 Genestealers + Broodlord w. Skything Tallon 188
Troop 3 : 9 Genestealers + Broodlord w. Skything Tallon 188
Troop 4 : 9 Genestealers + Broodlord w. Skything Tallon 188
Troop 5 : 10 Genestealers + Broodlord w. Skything Tallon 202
Troop 6 : 10 Tervigaunts 50

Heavy Support 1: Mawlock 170
Heavy Support 2: Mawlock 170

It does not have catalyst in it but I feel that it will pack a nice punch at 1750 points. At the very least it will act as a big scare factor. If he does not box his units in the the genstealer will just start eating at one end and continie all the way through. In a dawn of war scenario I can pull the "dick move" witch is blocking the entry way, forcing him to leave something to be munched down in turn 1. I think this list has some merit, I will try it out. Even if the mawlocks miss I am stil thinking my oponent will be looking and some 30 odd genestealers and 2 mawlucks in the second turn. It should be enough to keep people ocupied.

Edit: Grundz have you considered the trygon tunnel with reserves? True there is no way to make shure that the wurm comes before the other units but if you keep them in regular reserves they will be abel to use the tunel once they become available from turn 3+ if the trygon has apeared. Thiz could be zoanthropes or hive guard.

Gargoyles with Adrenal Glands and Genestealers. Hit them in waves, stun and shake until the big weapons come to bear.

Tomb King wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Niiai, you should insist your opponents play by the rules, then. 25% of your table should be covered by terrain, of which 1/3 should be area terrain. So, on a standard 6' x 4' table, there should be 288 square inches of area terrain (equivalent to 8 pieces of 6" x 6" forest, rocks, or ruins).

If only it worked like that.

It does work like that... You guys don't start out by filling a 3' x 2' quarter of the board with terrain, then distributing it in some kind of mutually agreeable manner? We do, and probably usually have around 8 pieces of area terrain (3-4 woods, 3-4 ruins, maybe one or two rocky or scrubby areas).

ElCheezus wrote:Gargoyles with Adrenal Glands and Genestealers. Hit them in waves, stun and shake until the big weapons come to bear.

How on earth? Have you seen the bolter that space amrines come with? :-( Or flamers. Heavy and small, on landspeeders and rhino hatches. First wave should be an alfa strike or there is no second wave.

So considering all that has been said in this thread. Do you all consider Tyranids to be a top teer army and capable of winning for example the ard boyz and beating dual lash and leaf blowers?

I just cant see them bringing a solid all comers list.

Tomb King wrote:So considering all that has been said in this thread. Do you all consider Tyranids to be a top teer army and capable of winning for example the ard boyz and beating dual lash and leaf blowers?

I just cant see them bringing a solid all comers list.

Locally yes....but we do not have tourneys over 2000 points unlike you folks in the states. The regular rules for 40k is designed for around 1500 to 2K pts. Most of the tourneys we have range from 1500 to 1850, and for casual play 1.5 to 2K is the range.

Dual lash and marine lists the nids can defeat, in the hands of a capable player. Versus IG and shooty SW it will be a brutal and tough fight. Nids can handle the BA better as the way the BA army is designed fits right into the play of the nids.

Thanks for the discussion guys. The more I play fantasy and the more I play 40k I truly feel like GW intentionally makes xenos 2nd or 3rd tier. Tyranids used to be competitive and what I can't stand about this thread is that we only have 2 options for dealing with the current metagame.

Is you opponent eldar? Dark eldar? IG? Multi-coloured marines? It's all the same: Almost EVERYONE mechs up because GW wants to sell very little plastic very many times for a lot of money. It's about buying lots of infantry (look at who can score), and lots of transports to put them in.

We are the only ones who don't have that option. From reading every post it seems that we have two options: Every elite slot taken by hive guard. Or every elite slot being taken by zoans.

I can tell you from experience that massed genestealers work against mech to a point. Since we hit rear it's an instant pen if you get one 6 to hit and one 6 to penetrate. If you take 4 squads with some heavy hitters you have a chance. The problem is that once they do their work whatever's inside will kill your entire squad.

But really, can't we have ONE weapon that has more than a 24" range? I used to take 3 biovores with the bio acid mines and people would laugh... Until I got a 5 and a 6 + S3 and destroyed their russ or rhino/chimera with command squad in it. That happened every single game and I felt like I had a chance against anyone. The more I play against competitive armies I feel like I have to allow myself to be pigeon-holed into one of the two available molds.

If you want to consider other options, take a stab at looking at the Tyranid Tactica:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319613.page

My personal advice:

Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon will often ensure at least one hit a shooting phase on average. It's gonna be a magnet for fire, but in a 'Nid list, saturation is key.

2 Winged Hive Tyrants- Wanna scare the bejeezus outta of an opponent? Send out two Winged Tyrants. Cover them with a swarm of Gargs to help screen their arrival.

Push Tervigons and swarming Gants down their throat. 2 Tervs and an ever increasing swarm of Gants scuttling towards their tanks is also a frightening sight. Also doesn't hurt to FNP other critters in order to enhance their survival.

Elite Genestealers- Desginating one terrain piece and sitting on that secret spawn point all game will make your opponent wince everything you roll your reserves for them.