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I have a few considerations for the above advice:

The second you talk about kill points you're in a world of hurt. Having lots of gaunts is great unless there are no objectives. If it is kill points your tervigon becomes a 180 point FNP generator... Nothing more.

Ymgarls are nice but they're almost double the points for basically nothing better and if you opponent happens to be standing on that terrain when they arrive from reserves they are destroyed.

Tyrannofex is great but lets not forget cover saves. What's the likelihood of that one shot that hits actually penetrate and getting through cover? Wouldn't anyone who know what they're doing just keep vehicles obscured most of the time?

Just some food for thought.

My comment here on KP..and this is coming from an IG perspective...

I do not try to let KP bother me since whatever I do in most cases I will have more KP than my enemy..so the trick is to try and kill those units which can hurt you the most early...

for the IG, it is easier since I shoot..for the nids they HAVE to do this by turn 2 or 3...if they do manage to do so, it is a downhill fight for the enemy as being an elite army the loss of a key unit will hurt him more....

In other words, sometimes you just have to suck it in and get right on and stuck in....as for the tervigon, FNP on itself makes it a tougher nut to crack..it IS a monstrous creature after all so for KP games support the other units and try to get it to eat some enemies!!!

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:The second you talk about kill points you're in a world of hurt. Having lots of gaunts is great unless there are no objectives. If it is kill points your tervigon becomes a 180 point FNP generator... Nothing more.

Wrong... Its a 6wounds synapse monster with the ability to assault with 10 gaunts (spawned) with furious charge and poison within 18 inch. after that it can join the assault and hit with 4 MC attacks. Also dont forget the 18 inch S5 large template. Against Mech... yes its a big nasty FNP generator.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Ymgarls are nice but they're almost double the points for basically nothing better and if you opponent happens to be standing on that terrain when they arrive from reserves they are destroyed.

If you got sum terrain in the middle of the battlefield its almost impossible for the enemy to block the whole terrain. Even if the do the will have to move closer to the rest of your army and face the other units.. These units are great for multi-assault and also for keeping enemy units busy until the trygons kick in. I always pick a unit of 8 and its also nice to make sure the arrive fast (Hive Commander). against mech... better to pick more Hivegaurd..

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Tyrannofex is great but lets not forget cover saves. What's the likelihood of that one shot that hits actually penetrate and getting through cover? Wouldn't anyone who know what they're doing just keep vehicles obscured most of the time?

I like the fact that you can penetrate any vehicle on the battlefield within 48 inch. Its so tough and with 2 trygons walking around its not the first target. My tyrannofex almost always survives the battle and will take down one vehicle, but most times nothing more!

I already specifically covered the Tyranofex on the very first page. Here I'll post it again just for you.

SumYungGui wrote:Edit: T-fexes are not good. Two hundred and sixty five (265!) points for a two shot wonder at BS 3 that's less effective than a lascannon. Stop with this lie already.

If you're only using it for it's 2 shots your using it wrong Sumyunggui. While it doesn't fit my personal playstyle I do and have seen them used to great effect. It just can't be taken solely for the cannon on it's back.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I have a few considerations for the above advice:

The second you talk about kill points you're in a world of hurt. Having lots of gaunts is great unless there are no objectives. If it is kill points your tervigon becomes a 180 point FNP generator... Nothing more.

Ymgarls are nice but they're almost double the points for basically nothing better and if you opponent happens to be standing on that terrain when they arrive from reserves they are destroyed.

Tyrannofex is great but lets not forget cover saves. What's the likelihood of that one shot that hits actually penetrate and getting through cover? Wouldn't anyone who know what they're doing just keep vehicles obscured most of the time?

Just some food for thought.

'Nids don't have the following luxuries:
Transports
Long Range Artillery

You have to use what their strengths are:

Synergy and MCs.

They do other things well, but a 'Nid list builds upon itself quite nicely with what they have to offer.

In the event a KP mission is drawn...yes your probably gonna be out of luck on that particular mission if the opponent can bring enough fire power to demolish the gants and the Tervs and everything else you field. IG is a matchup where they bring alot of KP, but can punish you from long range.

Ymgarls (I hate that name) can be fickle, but its best to deploy them as close as you can to the opponent. They're a good disruption unit. They can smack and multiassault tanks nearby. At worst in terms of positive results, it functions like Snikrot led Kommandos in which suddenly, you are dictating tactics to the opponent in how they deploy rather than making them feel comfortable enough in forgetting about the elite Genestealers.

Of course, if there is no area terrain...no Ymargls...

The Tyrannofex's gun is essentially a twin-linked rail gun shooting on BS 3. Not too terrible odds. It's main draw is the fact it has Land Raider points, but can take 6 shots worth of damage before falling over. That's before you think about giving it FNP.

All the above suggestions are probably bad by themselves; it's the number of threats you pull on the opponent that forces the opponent to have to deal with what he thinks is the bigger threat. That Tyrannofex if taken alone is probably not gonna survive...but slap in there two Tervigons, two Hive Tyrants, two more Tyrannofexes or maybe Dakka Carnifexes and then all of a sudden, he has to choose which thing is the bigger threat and deal with it before taking out the Tryannofex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:

Grab a look at this Battle Report from mercer regarding a Tyranid player going up against a Guard player:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345061.page

DarthDiggler wrote:

Niiai wrote:I usualy only play against mech and I cant get tyranids to work at all. I have posted several army sugestions here on dakka but people moastly ignore it. How on earth do tyranids kill guard mech or SM mech?

I've been reading up on the ETC games and a Polish bug list claims to have easily beat at least 5 Mech IG lists over the course of the tournament. The bug list was specifically designed to beat Mech IG (Leafblower) at 1750pts and it apparently did as advertised.

HQ1: Tervigon (160), Catalyst (15), Cluster Spines (0) 175

Elite 1 : 3 Hive Guards 150
Elite 2 : 3 Hive Guards 150
Elite 3 : 3 Hive Guards 150

Troop 1 : Tervigon (160), Catalyst (15), Cluster Spines (0) 175
Troop 2 : 10 Termagants ( 10*5 ) 50
Troop 3 : 20 Genestealers (20*14) 280
Troop 4 : 20 Genestealers (20*14) 280
Troop 5 : 20 Genestealers (20*14), toxin sacs ( 20*3) 340


He started with everything on the board and snaked Genestealer units in long lines after infiltrating. This gave the stealers cover from shooting at any angle and put them in range of the Tervigon's Catalyst. The stealers and Hive Guard wipe out all IG and SM Mech on the table, except maybe a Land Raider. The Tervigons keep both units alive longer and produce scoring units to claim objectives at the end. He went 6-0 vs. Ork Horde, 13 T-Wolf SW and 4 Mech IG lists. His closest battlepoint game was 15-5. This list seems to be an absolute mech killer.

I see how the list works. From a modelling viewpoint it looks boring to play. It only uses four models out of the whole range. (Technically three, as there aren't any Tervigon models.)

Hulksmash wrote:If you're only using it for it's 2 shots your using it wrong Sumyunggui. While it doesn't fit my personal playstyle I do and have seen them used to great effect. It just can't be taken solely for the cannon on it's back.

You're absolutely right, using him for his cannon is a complete waste of points. I'm glad that's established because I've come to the same conclusion while playing the game as well. As some wise man once said somewhere 'Two hundred and sixty five (265!) points for a two shot wonder at BS 3 that's less effective than a lascannon'. If I'm using him at all it's tooled up as a midfield monster with all three shooting attacks every turn dishing out a disgusting amount of firepower at mid to short range.

What exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in china when the thread title is 'Tyranids vs mech'? Against mech what does he offer? His two-shot-wonder gimp cannon? Covered. Don't say close combat, I know you were going to, I know it was coming, I know you wanted to and I've heard that line of bull before so I'm cutting you off at the knees before you even get started. If I'm going to assault vehicles with a monstrous creature I'll do it better, cheaper, faster and more often with a Trygon.

The only possible value the Tyrannofex has against mech is 'well crap, all three of my elite slots are already full and everything else sucks against armor'

I have used the tyranofex as bit and it is good. What it does is STR 10 2 shoots at BS 3. That is a good chance to kill/stunn AP 13 and less at a long range. It gives you range. Then after the 2 first turn, things change up.

A) You have no other units in position that can kill / stunn transports or big gunns and you continue shooting the things you have shot so far. (I ask: Where are you zoanthropes/ygmar genestealers or hive guard? By now you should be abel to kill things with thing withouth the tyranofex.)

B) If you have you secondery anti tanks in place, then try to target the troops with the flamer template and the cluster spines. Also, you can charge something (withouth powerfists) and it does....just as mutch as a Trevigon.

Yolu are really paying a premium for the 6 wounds with the 2+ save. It is a lott yeah. They could well have costed 220 points or something, but for 530 you can get 4 shots per turn. Also since it is T6 2+ save he will have to do something with them because they can threaten all your oponent have. But what people use these days are melta's, one or two lascannons and powerfists or hammers. In short your oponent has to deal with them, or they will ruin his day.

Also, the shot is not vorse then a lascannon, it is better since it is str 10. If you are shooting temrinators with them you are doing something wrong. In short if you meet deathwing terminators they can not hit you (krak vs 2+) and you can not hit them (kite them) (Str 10 vs 2+) also, very few oponents can hide -all- his tanks, you will destroy something each round.


EDIT: Killcrazy, while it is true that you use few diferent models you have to remember that the genstealers is awsome! (Remember to glue there arms so you can get them into base to base.) Genestealers are contesting the title of ninja of the 40K (harlequeens, wytches and scorpions are also good contesters.) You know Ninja's are awsome!

EDIT 2: In short, the tyranofex give syou a longer reach and gives your oponent one reason to come to you, as oposed to the other way around. And if you team up with trevigons who can get feel no pain there are more T6 you need to use AP2 shots on. A rocket launcher vs a trevigon and you still get the 4+ feel no pain roll.

SumYungGui wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:If you're only using it for it's 2 shots your using it wrong Sumyunggui. While it doesn't fit my personal playstyle I do and have seen them used to great effect. It just can't be taken solely for the cannon on it's back.

You're absolutely right, using him for his cannon is a complete waste of points. I'm glad that's established because I've come to the same conclusion while playing the game as well. As some wise man once said somewhere 'Two hundred and sixty five (265!) points for a two shot wonder at BS 3 that's less effective than a lascannon'. If I'm using him at all it's tooled up as a midfield monster with all three shooting attacks every turn dishing out a disgusting amount of firepower at mid to short range.

What exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in china when the thread title is 'Tyranids vs mech'? Against mech what does he offer? His two-shot-wonder gimp cannon? Covered. Don't say close combat, I know you were going to, I know it was coming, I know you wanted to and I've heard that line of bull before so I'm cutting you off at the knees before you even get started. If I'm going to assault vehicles with a monstrous creature I'll do it better, cheaper, faster and more often with a Trygon.

The only possible value the Tyrannofex has against mech is 'well crap, all three of my elite slots are already full and everything else sucks against armor'

talking about bull...

The Tyrannofex has his place and it all depends on your armylist. Most times he will shoot down one big vehicle and then join close combat or flips over another vehicle in close combat. Its a solid MC and not a bad choice. Yes you will need the trygons and yes you will still need the Hivegaurd. But if your against, well I dunno...Vendetta's! Its great that you can shoot one down befor it uses its lascannons on your Trygons.

Maybe you dont like them but I've seen you armylist and you could use one...

I can see it being useful if you have a lot of hive guard, who don't really have the best results against AV 14.

SumYungGui wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:If you're only using it for it's 2 shots your using it wrong Sumyunggui. While it doesn't fit my personal playstyle I do and have seen them used to great effect. It just can't be taken solely for the cannon on it's back.

You're absolutely right, using him for his cannon is a complete waste of points. I'm glad that's established because I've come to the same conclusion while playing the game as well. As some wise man once said somewhere 'Two hundred and sixty five (265!) points for a two shot wonder at BS 3 that's less effective than a lascannon'. If I'm using him at all it's tooled up as a midfield monster with all three shooting attacks every turn dishing out a disgusting amount of firepower at mid to short range.

What exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in china when the thread title is 'Tyranids vs mech'? Against mech what does he offer? His two-shot-wonder gimp cannon? Covered. Don't say close combat, I know you were going to, I know it was coming, I know you wanted to and I've heard that line of bull before so I'm cutting you off at the knees before you even get started. If I'm going to assault vehicles with a monstrous creature I'll do it better, cheaper, faster and more often with a Trygon.

The only possible value the Tyrannofex has against mech is 'well crap, all three of my elite slots are already full and everything else sucks against armor'

Not just for assaulting vehicles. They're still decent in CC, and they're going to beat average units in CC. Further than that though (and probably more importantly), close range fire support. They have a flamer template weapon and a high ROF weapon as well. If you want to get good use out of them, you have to build your army with them in mind. You'll be using them aggressively, usually in combination with the Onlsaught power that Tervigons can take. They can then keep up with the rest of you army (which is important as you absolutely need them moving with the rest, mutual support is key... when they fall behind they create gaps at the back and/or flanks pending your deployment) while shooting their guns on the way in. Once you're stuck in you've got 6W T6 MCs running around in their lines with some pretty solid weapons and better than the average unit CC ability. They aren't going to go off and slay units of Thunderwolves on their own (obviously), but they bring great utility in a resilient package. In the proper build for them they can be devastating. They're a complicated unit that you can't just toss into your list and get results with. You have to build the list with them in mind and then execute on the table. They don't "point and click" like so many things in the game these days.

Requia wrote:I can see it being useful if you have a lot of hive guard, who don't really have the best results against AV 14.

You have only 3 awsers to the landraider. But first you need to understand what the laindraider do. It dellivers what's inside, and it shoots 1 melta gun. Some also shoot bolters and/or flame, but moastly that happens in round 3 and 4. What is inside is very dangerush. In short, if you have something that kills whatever is inside the LR is not sod angerush. Unfortunatly hammer terminators are very hard in CC. What you fear is the terminators.

These are the 3 ways to destroy the landraider:

1: Zoanthropes. They shoot it. Do not pod it, you want it to protect your horde, you need it in the midel so it can meet the landspeeder head on when it is 18" away. If you pod it maybe it comes in on turn 2. If there is no landraider, zoanthropes are less interesting, but they are still good. In short, you take them if you have no other awser to AV 14. Othervice the hive guard works almoast always better (it is cheaper, has STR 5, T6 and a VERY good gun with 6" more range and it does not get bad vs eldar and librarians.)

2: Tyranofex. In fact a bit bard choise so you might need 2 of them. But it shoots S10 shots vs AV 14, not so cool with one, OK with 2.

3: You meet theyr champion head on with your champion. In short, take a MC, and feed it to the landraider. Landraider dies, and next turn the terminators kill the landraider. If the MC cost less then the landraider you have won!

The T-fex is almost unarguably overpriced (265 would be fair if it had been BS4 -- it's frankly crazy that it isn't BS4 -- or if the gun were twin-linked). But it's not much more overpriced than a 10-man Space Marine tactical squad with rhino, flamer and missile launcher, and it's more durable against most weaponry, as well as more versatile (the ability to reliably shoot irrespective of having moved or been shot at is golden). So, as one part of the puzzle... yeah, it's worth having in a lot of lists. Just keep him out of close combat with high-strength armour-ignoring enemies (any CC-oriented MCs, for example), and he's really tough to kill.

While I think the tyranid codex is a mess, keeping the tyranofex alive with venom thropes and some gaunts (for bubbel wrapp) is not very hard. Heck if you have enough gargoyles there are only long ranged plasma/laser and battle cannons that can dent it. It is just plain scary. Of course the trygon is 65 points cheaper and it is a power house!