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VoidAngel wrote:Given the time period, and the name of the chapter - it's entirely possible that even British nerds intended it that way. I'm sure it was intended respectfully.

I seriously don't think they were trying to go for a diverse imperium... it's more likely they were making silly references like they did with so many other characters.
OT: There is ethnic diversity in the Imperium it's just it is so unthought off no one cares. As long as you're human loyal and have the right number of body parts you're on the Imperium's side otherwise you're very much in the firing line.

I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

Fair enough but you can't say that they were non-white merely because of the name Dark Angels. They may have drawn inspiration from native american culture for the symbols and insignia but not much else.

I dunno...even the artwork at the time they looked a bit Navajo maybe. Heck, even the Space Hulk video game for the x486 had them with feathers in their hair and looking like Indians on steroids.

I think they were going for interesting, not some diversity crap like we have today, where what you were born into in somehow more important that what you can actually do.

The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

This is no true, the original Dark Angels were from Terra or Caliban, the 'Native American' cultural influence came from a recruitement world used after the fall of Caliban that was later lost to genestealer infestation. This cultural influence is only really seen among members of the deathwing as it was a group of deathwing that found out about the infestation and destroyed it.

I'm sorry but as a member of the British population the name Lion'el Johnson does not at all evoke an image of an American black man, i think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

The Dark Angels are a mix of the French and English knightly tradition, by the time Britain was formed knights were no longer really used in war or followed the 'Athurian' lifestyle and neither Scotland, Ireland or Wales to an extent had knightly traditions.

BluntmanDC wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:I think they were at least somewhat enamored of things American. The original Dark Angels were said to have descended from Native Americans - hence the feather motifs and other heraldry.

This is no true, the original Dark Angels were from Terra or Caliban, the 'Native American' cultural influence came from a recruitement world used after the fall of Caliban that was later lost to genestealer infestation. This cultural influence is only really seen among members of the deathwing as it was a group of deathwing that found out about the infestation and destroyed it.

I'm sorry but as a member of the British population the name Lion'el Johnson does not at all evoke an image of an American black man, i think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dark Angels are British Knights. The kind that go on quests to slay dragons.
As for the Dark in Dark Angels having something to do with Lionel Johnson's supposed stereotypical name I'm pretty sure your reading into something that's not there.

The Dark Angels are a mix of the French and English knightly tradition, by the time Britain was formed knights were no longer really used in war or followed the 'Athurian' lifestyle and neither Scotland, Ireland or Wales to an extent had knightly traditions.

I agree about both points.

I'm not barking up any tree, just pointing out a possibility. Nothing to say it's the correct interpretation.

I'd have to go dig it out, but I think the "Dark Angel" story from 20ish years ago even talked about their Native roots. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I read it (about 20 years, in fact ;-).

O look, it's THIS thread again

VoidAngel wrote:I'm not barking up any tree, just pointing out a possibility. Nothing to say it's the correct interpretation.

I'd have to go dig it out, but I think the "Dark Angel" story from 20ish years ago even talked about their Native roots. Could be wrong, it's been a while since I read it (about 20 years, in fact ;-).

That's about the native roots of those guys. The Dark Angels are actually the most multicultural chapter because they live on a giant flying rock and recruit from all over the galaxy. Most chapters just recruit from a handful or one planet.

Point.

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

Grey Templar wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

I dont get it...

AvatarForm wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OTOH there are plenty of white people who are delighted to be called African.

The world we live in is gradually becoming rainbow coloured.

Much of the IoM, being remote from any source of trouble from Xenos/Chaos and the like, is riddled with as much prejudice and "-sms" as the world today.

If they don't have different colour skin, they probably divide by hairstyles, or sports teams or something.

Don't you mean '-isms'?

purplefood wrote:Actually Lion El'johnson is believed to be a reference to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote a poem called Dark Angel (or my dark angel) which was about the conflict between his sexuality and his religion.

Guess what mum?!

I learned something on Dakka today!

and thats why the DAs wear dresses.

I dont get it...

i'd explain, but i don't know how old you are.


and i won't take your word for it either.

They are a blended race i think, unification and colonisation would dilute racial characteristics i would have thought. There is of course nothing stopping you from having your guardsmen from the ancient colonies of Nippon or New liberia who have kept the racial and cultural heritage of their earth ancestors.

As for High and Low gothic they are not anything, the numerals on those shoulder pads are just translations for convenience as are Manufactorum et al. Roman or Romanesque suits the gothic style nicely.

AvatarForm wrote:As per Chromedog's comment... however:

Primarchs tend to be of or ethnically derived from particular cultural backgrounds...

Jagatai Khan (sp) - Japanese/Nipponese and Mongol... also exhibits traits of Mongol horse raiders.

Leman Russ - Nordik (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish peoples... did I miss any?)

Magnus - Egyptian (some also argue Babylonian)

Yeah, true but then again most of Magnus's Sons were as white as white can be (even the coppery tone is often not mentioned, some also had blonde hair (Haathor Maat) for example). In my opinion, since chapters recruit from whole planets, their recruits can have any skin color possible, hence why the 1k Sons also have different skin colors (e.g. Ahriman in comparison to Maat). Except for the ones who have special skin conditions such as Salamanders or Raven Guard or where it's illogical (on a world like Fenris you won't likely find dark-skinned people).

I guess the now known races are all happily mixed up in 40k and skin color is no more a factor in racism. They either hate whole planets/cultures (but disregarding their skin color) or have a common enemy, e.g. mutants. What I would however like would be ethnic marine heads - why are there no black or asian featured sculpts? Just 2,3 heads for added diversity!

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

Not to mention that Lion El'Johnson is described as having long blond flowing hair...show me one black person with long blond flowing hair.

Mit Gas wrote:

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

The problem with the thought that they're "mostly white with some ethnic guys mixed in" is the Melanochrome organ, which controls a Marine's melanin and pigmentation. In higher levels of sun, it darkens a Marine's skin. In older fluff, it bleached a Marine's natural color to be paler than human norm as their norm. Some chapter's organ doesn't work right, such as the Salamanders and their black skin pigmentation.

So, a Marine's skin color(with a properly functioning Melanochrome organ) is more determined by what level of light they're in than any pre-change genetics.

The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

Platuan4th wrote:

Mit Gas wrote:

I always imagine most marine chapters to be mostly white but with some ethnic guys mixed in. At least that's how I imagine my 1k Sons. They came from a whole planet and some even from terra, there had to be some diversity. I mean, there are even blonde people in 40k, the trait that is most likely to disappear, so why shouldn't there be black or asian guys whose ancestors engaged in less interracial relationships.

The problem with the thought that they're "mostly white with some ethnic guys mixed in" is the Melanochrome organ, which controls a Marine's melanin and pigmentation. In higher levels of sun, it darkens a Marine's skin. In older fluff, it bleached a Marine's natural color to be paler than human norm as their norm. Some chapter's organ doesn't work right, such as the Salamanders and their black skin pigmentation.

So, a Marine's skin color(with a properly functioning Melanochrome organ) is more determined by what level of light they're in than any pre-change genetics.

Yeah, I didn't really think of that. But if one had asian eyes or black features before the change, those wouldn't completely go away, even if his skin color changes. So I'd still like to see some ethnic marine heads. Especially White Scars players could use em..

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

Technically, yes, but not what most people think of when they think "Asian". They would probably (ignorantly) refer to it as "Arabic", as they would for most people from southwest Asia or north Africa. Of course, it's really murky when trying to translate to modern conceptions, as this was supposed to have happened, when exactly? Eight thousand BC? I don't know enough anthropology to say exactly who would have been living there at that point, or where else they later wound up (my knowledge of anthropology pretty much ends after the tiers of food production as they relate to social structure...).

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

lol wut

technically, because Asia encompasses Turkey.


it, however, is populated by a completely different people group at the time of the Emperor's birth(8000 BC)

at the time of the emperor's birth, Turkey was inhabited by Aryans. not the Turks it is now(who are an Asian people and displaced the original inhabitants)


the Emperor would have been part of the ancestors of modern day Europeans and the Aryan Indian people(the upper level caste)

You're confusing "Aryan" in the historical sense (the people that eventually settled Persia/Iran through northern India) and "Aryan" in the sense of the insane, pseudo-anthropological ravings of the Nazi leadership (I would assume they got it from one of the quack anthropologists running around at the end of the nineteenth century (in other words, every anthropologist running around at the end of the nineteenth century), but I wouldn't know who). As far as I recall, the Aryans had exactly nothing to do with Europe, aside from sitting next to it on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean. Then again, I can't recall where the tribes that eventually dispersed through Europe came from, only that they shared a common language with the people of southwest asia (or had shared a language, at some point previously), what is now referred to as Proto-Indo-European, from which is ultimately derived Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu (which is essentially Hindi with a different name, as I recall), and every European language other than Basque and... something else, I forget which.

it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.

because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.

Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.

the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.



the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

Grey Templar wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The Emperor was born in Anatolia, so is Asian.

lol wut
technically, because Asia encompasses Turkey.
it, however, is populated by a completely different people group at the time of the Emperor's birth(8000 BC)
at the time of the emperor's birth, Turkey was inhabited by Aryans. not the Turks it is now(who are an Asian people and displaced the original inhabitants)
the Emperor would have been part of the ancestors of modern day Europeans and the Aryan Indian people(the upper level caste)

Grey Templar wrote:it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.
because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.
Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.
the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.
the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

As I said: Asian

Asian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Anatolia

The earliest representations of culture in Anatolia can be found in several archaeological sites located in the central and eastern part of the region. Although the origins of some of the earliest peoples are shrouded in mystery, the remnants of Hattian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Hittite culture provides us with many examples of the daily lives of its citizens and their trade. After the fall of the Hittites, the new states of Phrygia and Lydia stood strong on the western coast as Greek civilization began to flourish. Only the threat from a distant Persian kingdom prevented them from advancing past their peak of success.

Hittites is the conventional English-language term for an ancient people who spoke an Indo-European language and established a kingdom

Sorry, but its impossible to know about 8.000BC for sure when the first confirmed data is from 2.500 BC.

Rather questionable to claim the Emperor as part of a ethnic group.

Furthermore, before that period we have:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

Çatalhöyük ([tʃaˈtaɫhøjyc]; also Çatal Höyük and Çatal Hüyük, or any of the three without diacritics; çatal is Turkish for "fork", höyük for "mound") was a very large Neolithic and Chalcolithic settlement in southern Anatolia, which existed from approximately 7500 BC to 5700 BC. It is the largest and best preserved Neolithic site found to date.

Çatalhöyük is located overlooking wheat fields in the Konya Plain, southeast of the present-day city of Konya (ancient Iconium) in Turkey, approximately 140 km (87 mi) from the twin-coned volcano of Mount Hasan. The eastern settlement forms a mound which would have risen about 20 m (66 ft) above the plain at the time of the latest Neolithic occupation. There is also a smaller settlement mound to the west and a Byzantine settlement a few hundred meters to the east. The prehistoric mound settlements were abandoned before the Bronze Age. A channel of the Çarşamba river once flowed between the two mounds, and the settlement was built on alluvial clay which may have been favourable for early agriculture.

Go find out who exactly lived there...

Grey Templar wrote:it is belived that the same people group settled both Europe and northern India. mostly due to the skin tones.

because it's known that the Aryans in India came from the northwest of india(according to ancient texts) and the fact that no other people groups in the greater Eurasian area have the lighter skin tones then it can be assumed that the Aryans and Europeans are of the same stock.

Europeans clearly aren't heavily related to the Inuit peoples(who have asian features and dark skin) nor would their ancestors have come accross the Medeterrainian.

the only other light skinned peoples were the Aryans.



the Aryans probably split due to invasions from deeper in asia by darker skinned peoples. part went into Europe(passing through Asia Minor on the way) and part went to India(where they established themselves as the dominant group, and convientiatly set up the caste system)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#Kurgan_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race#Indo-Aryan_migration

Perkustin wrote:They are a blended race i think, unification and colonisation would dilute racial characteristics i would have thought. There is of course nothing stopping you from having your guardsmen from the ancient colonies of Nippon or New liberia who have kept the racial and cultural heritage of their earth ancestors.

As for High and Low gothic they are not anything, the numerals on those shoulder pads are just translations for convenience as are Manufactorum et al. Roman or Romanesque suits the gothic style nicely.

The thing is though through the thousands of yers new races would have popped up some may mimic the ones we have now and others may be different and planet specific e.g. taller due to less gravity (i'm not sure how that works so i may be wrong)

Mogul Kamir and his roughriders are Mongolian-ish.