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While they have 3+ saves they don't make up 30-50% of al armies.

Perhaps they would if the SMs were banned.

Ogiwan wrote:Ahhh, Sir P, I so love it when you post.....

Kanluwen, I agree with you that yes, the Space Marines are the Imperium's version of Special Forces. They come in, do a pinpoint strike, and effectively act as a force multiplier.

What Sir P is raging against is the various nauseating instances where, in the fluff, a handful of Spaez Marines come in, do something inconsequential, and They Have Single-Handedly Saved The Day, ignoring the millions of Guardsmen that were there too. Its played up not as Space Marines acting as force multipliers, but as Space Marines being the only thing of consequence.

I really hate to say this but...I've yet to see pieces of good fluff where there's a 'handful of Space Marines who come in and do something inconsequential. saving the day'. The Astartes pick their own targets, usually based on whatever they think will aid a Guard breakthrough on the frontlines.

However:
Of course it's played up as Space Marines being the only thing of consequence. The Astartes are something mythical, something legendary that the Imperium uses as a kind of 'beacon' for its populace to rally around. The very name that they're given, the 'Angels of Death' moniker that most of the Imperium's citizenry knows them by, is effectively that propaganda in action.

How heroic would headlines be if they read that "millions of Guardsmen died today, trying to take the Citadel of Blood and being mercilessly cut down by the Traitor Guardsmen who occupied its ramparts"?

Now, take the Astartes approach..."Today, the Emperor's own Angels of Death struck within the Citadel of Blood, overloading the Citadel's shield generators allowing for the forces of the glorious Imperial Guard to batter their way through the walls".
Which one do you think would make the citizens 'feel better', as the case may be?

Heck:
Look at how the exploits of SpecOps are played up today. They're guys who spend most of their lives, effectively, in the shadows avoiding attention...until they do something that their nation can use as a kind of 'rallying call' for the populace. Then they're extolled as the pinnacle of excellence and an example of the "men and women protecting our country from harm"--when in fact, they're the minority and most people in the military are nowhere near their levels of training?

Kilkrazy, I think you need to get over your Marine hate. Not sure what they did to you, but it's getting kinda old.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Space Marines don't actually have the numbers to do anything in the first place. Realistically, it would take several dozen chapters (basically how the Great Crusade operated, as far as I can tell, with a single legion of tens of thousands being used to take new worlds, after which the Imperial Army was left behind to garrison it) to take a world, not several dozen marines. The normal scenario seems to be something like "tens of thousands of guardsmen face off against the millions of entrenched defenders; ten space marines land somewhere irrelevant, and spend the whole war standing around shooting randomly and screaming; thank the Emperor those Space Marines saved the day!"

The Astartes alone aren't used to "take a world". They never have been used for that role either. The Great Crusade had the Legions operating with the Imperial Army directly integrated into their command structure. It's why Horus was able to take so much of the 'standard' Crusade forces with him when he turned traitor.

The Astartes are the Imperium's version of 'Special Forces'. They're brought in when necessary, and their job is to devastate an enemy's ability to make war.
It's why they conduct drop pod assaults, it's why they have Terminators that can be teleported into an established combat zone, it's why they have Scout Squads that are effective infiltrators and are trained in insurgency/forward control operations, it's why they have vehicles that are easily air transportable, and it's why everything about them is meant to operate without friendly support.

In that context, they have the numbers to do everything that they're expected to--and more, if necessary.

That's what they are conceptually, a concept which gets thrown out the window in every instance I've seen. They're also less numerous than the Guard's Baneblades, tanks which should pack more firepower than an entire company of marines... Not to mention that just about anything superheavy infantry with tiny guns could do, orbital bombardment could do faster, cheaper, and more reliably...

Like I've always said, great in concept, horrible in implementation.

I would probly only be playing chaos daemons and necrons or dark eldar there the mnain armies that I like.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Like I've always said, great in concept, horrible in implementation.

Horus Heresy anyone?

For me, the game changed when they got rid of armour save modifiers and replaced it with armour penetration values (3rd Edition).

From this point on, everybody started obsessing over conquering the 3+ armour save (including me). Any discussion about a weapon, be it a bolt gun, splinter rifle or pulse rifle, is always considered from the point of view of how much damage it will do to an MEQ.

I don't remember power armour being such an issue in 2nd Edition because most basic weapons knocked it down a peg or two.

Flashman wrote:For me, the game changed when they got rid of armour save modifiers and replaced it with armour penetration values (3rd Edition).

From this point on, everybody started obsessing over conquering the 3+ armour save (including me). Any discussion about a weapon, be it a bolt gun, splinter rifle or pulse rifle, is always considered from the point of view of how much damage it will do to an MEQ.

I don't remember power armour being such an issue in 2nd Edition because most basic weapons knocked it down a peg or two.

Which just goes to show, at least in my eyes: the obsession with fielding MEQ isn't necessarily a question of 'Space Marines are pressed on us in fluff and releases'.

It's a question of player attitudes. The fluff and plastic kits are just a bonus for the players who are flocking to Marines because "they win".

This wouldn't happen. GW loves marines far too much. There is also an equally unlikely chance of other races getting anywhere near as much attention unless your the Imperial Guard. I mean look at the Inquisition and how long it took to get updated and that was an Imperial faction.

I don't think this is a problem that will ever be fixed; even as people desert the Xeno factions to join Marines or Guard; due to being sick of the much less model releases/long codex wait. Its a spiral downwards; sales will go down on races that recieve less support and thus they'll feel less like its worth updating them.

I like that Flashman brings up the old armor save modifiers. I do feel that when a lasgun dropped the save down to 4+ MEQ was less of a worry. They are probably 2x or 3x as hardy now as they were then.

More specifically, I think the biggest change would be that 2/3 of the armies in the game wouldn't be extremely similar anymore. We would be left with SoB, IG, Tau, Ork, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons. Two or three of those armies are horde like (orks, Tyranids, and Guard), two of them are fast and mobile (Eldar and Dark Eldar), two of them are gun lines (Tau and IG), then Chaos is just crazy, and Necrons and SoB have power armor but are lacking a lot of what makes marines, marines. Instead, we have all of those armies above, but more than 2/3 of the player base will show up playing one of the 6 marine armies. yay for variety.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ogiwan wrote:Ahhh, Sir P, I so love it when you post.....

Kanluwen, I agree with you that yes, the Space Marines are the Imperium's version of Special Forces. They come in, do a pinpoint strike, and effectively act as a force multiplier.

What Sir P is raging against is the various nauseating instances where, in the fluff, a handful of Spaez Marines come in, do something inconsequential, and They Have Single-Handedly Saved The Day, ignoring the millions of Guardsmen that were there too. Its played up not as Space Marines acting as force multipliers, but as Space Marines being the only thing of consequence.

I really hate to say this but...I've yet to see pieces of good fluff where there's a 'handful of Space Marines who come in and do something inconsequential. saving the day'. The Astartes pick their own targets, usually based on whatever they think will aid a Guard breakthrough on the frontlines.

However:
Of course it's played up as Space Marines being the only thing of consequence. The Astartes are something mythical, something legendary that the Imperium uses as a kind of 'beacon' for its populace to rally around. The very name that they're given, the 'Angels of Death' moniker that most of the Imperium's citizenry knows them by, is effectively that propaganda in action.

How heroic would headlines be if they read that "millions of Guardsmen died today, trying to take the Citadel of Blood and being mercilessly cut down by the Traitor Guardsmen who occupied its ramparts"?

Now, take the Astartes approach..."Today, the Emperor's own Angels of Death struck within the Citadel of Blood, overloading the Citadel's shield generators allowing for the forces of the glorious Imperial Guard to batter their way through the walls".
Which one do you think would make the citizens 'feel better', as the case may be?

Heck:
Look at how the exploits of SpecOps are played up today. They're guys who spend most of their lives, effectively, in the shadows avoiding attention...until they do something that their nation can use as a kind of 'rallying call' for the populace. Then they're extolled as the pinnacle of excellence and an example of the "men and women protecting our country from harm"--when in fact, they're the minority and most people in the military are nowhere near their levels of training?

Kilkrazy, I think you need to get over your Marine hate. Not sure what they did to you, but it's getting kinda old.

They touched me in a bad place.

I don't hate Marines, I think they are funny.

I just think all the other armies should get a fair shake.

Other armies? Fair share? Fat chance I'm afraid.

They can't even do that with the video games too.

Mr Hyena wrote:Other armies? Fair share? Fat chance I'm afraid.

They can't even do that with the video games too.

Actually, they have. Retribution.

They added Imperial Guard.

They didn't add Tau, Necrons, Daemonhunters or Witchhunters.

Imperial Guard are pretty much the second best supported army in TT.

No, but of the armies they did include, they're all pretty equally served.

Mr Hyena wrote:They added Imperial Guard.

They didn't add Tau, Necrons, Daemonhunters or Witchhunters.

Imperial Guard are pretty much the second best supported army in TT.

And?

They didn't add Tau or Necrons because Tau or Necrons have no presence in that specific area of the galaxy.

Daemonhunters/Witchhunters--you're wrong. The Inquisition has been introduced in Retribution, just not their Chambers Militant.

If they werent in it I'd have a full Tau army and would be starting Eldar instead of Tau. Meta I don't think would change too much due to the amount of armor Guard and Sisters can put on the table. I do think flamethrowers would be more common than they are currently, but not exponentially so.

Kanluwen wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:They added Imperial Guard.

They didn't add Tau, Necrons, Daemonhunters or Witchhunters.

Imperial Guard are pretty much the second best supported army in TT.

And?

They didn't add Tau or Necrons because Tau or Necrons have no presence in that specific area of the galaxy.

Daemonhunters/Witchhunters--you're wrong. The Inquisition has been introduced in Retribution, just not their Chambers Militant.

I'd hardly say a single Inquisitor (without retinue) is having an Inquisition faction. Area of galaxy doesnt matter; what we're talking about is how well represented races are in all of GW Mediums for 40k.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:They added Imperial Guard.

They didn't add Tau, Necrons, Daemonhunters or Witchhunters.

Imperial Guard are pretty much the second best supported army in TT.

And?

They didn't add Tau or Necrons because Tau or Necrons have no presence in that specific area of the galaxy.

Daemonhunters/Witchhunters--you're wrong. The Inquisition has been introduced in Retribution, just not their Chambers Militant.

I'd hardly say a single Inquisitor (without retinue) is having an Inquisition faction. Area of galaxy doesnt matter; what we're talking about is how well represented races are in all of GW Mediums for 40k.

Actually, the Inquisitor does effectively have a 'retinue'. She can call up Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Banewolf tanks, etc.

And yes: area of galaxy does matter when we're talking about the Tau/Necrons.

Tau and Necrons are very geographically static. The Tau don't send out probing expeditions or raiding forces all across the 40k universe. Mostly because they're technologically limited, but also because they're more interested in sending out groups of Water Caste Envoys to get in touch with the worlds of the Imperium beyond their borders.

Necrons are a different story. They're active in the 40k universe, yes. But in the end: they're restricted by where their tomb worlds are.

Kanluwen wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:They added Imperial Guard.

They didn't add Tau, Necrons, Daemonhunters or Witchhunters.

Imperial Guard are pretty much the second best supported army in TT.

And?

They didn't add Tau or Necrons because Tau or Necrons have no presence in that specific area of the galaxy.

Daemonhunters/Witchhunters--you're wrong. The Inquisition has been introduced in Retribution, just not their Chambers Militant.

I'd hardly say a single Inquisitor (without retinue) is having an Inquisition faction. Area of galaxy doesnt matter; what we're talking about is how well represented races are in all of GW Mediums for 40k.

Actually, the Inquisitor does effectively have a 'retinue'. She can call up Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Banewolf tanks, etc.

And yes: area of galaxy does matter when we're talking about the Tau/Necrons.

Tau and Necrons are very geographically static. The Tau don't send out probing expeditions or raiding forces all across the 40k universe. Mostly because they're technologically limited, but also because they're more interested in sending out groups of Water Caste Envoys to get in touch with the worlds of the Imperium beyond their borders.

Necrons are a different story. They're active in the 40k universe, yes. But in the end: they're restricted by where their tomb worlds are.

She can call up Stormtroopers. Not Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and a Banewolf isn't an Inquisition unit. That isn't a retinue. The Lord General has a retinue though. And yet your looking to the story; we're talking about factions not the story.

All that matters is the final result. Do we see the lesser-seen races getting support? If not; then something is wrong.

If an =][= rolls in and inducts a Guard regiment, how is that not calling up Inquisition units? To be fair, though, as painful as it is to admit it, I think that Kal's distinction is important. Given the nigh-unlimited power of the Inquisition, is there a force in the Imperium of Man that they cannot grab if they need it? Sure, politics may be involved, especially if they grab an AdMech or Power-Armored Freak unit, but seeing as the Inquisition works for the Emperor and answer to nobody, and all IoM units serve the Emperor.....can't any IoM unit technically be an Inquisition unit?

Meh. While I'm excited that my beloved Guard made it into Dawn of War II, I'm reluctant to play it, as I fear that they have butchered the Guard. Anybody play it yet with opinions?

My copy arrives tomorrow, but my impressions from the beta and playing Guard were that they were pretty solid.

The one thing that irked me was that they used the 'old' Stormtrooper models and not the far superior Kasrkin.

So no new plastic Stormtroopers, eh?

In the world of mech, what is inside the transport don't matter quite that much. The need to kill veh spam means high S low AP shooting weapons would always be around in number.

What marines really bring to the table is tough transport based deathstars, hoods, atsknf/fearless, super toughness in CC and drop pods.

I see a big reduction in power weapon/fist, more psyker based lists, less melta (no more raider rush) and more points put into more bodies (basic model no longer only for ablative reasons) as opposed to upgrades.

Ogiwan wrote:If an =][= rolls in and inducts a Guard regiment, how is that not calling up Inquisition units? To be fair, though, as painful as it is to admit it, I think that Kal's distinction is important. Given the nigh-unlimited power of the Inquisition, is there a force in the Imperium of Man that they cannot grab if they need it? Sure, politics may be involved, especially if they grab an AdMech or Power-Armored Freak unit, but seeing as the Inquisition works for the Emperor and answer to nobody, and all IoM units serve the Emperor.....can't any IoM unit technically be an Inquisition unit?

Meh. While I'm excited that my beloved Guard made it into Dawn of War II, I'm reluctant to play it, as I fear that they have butchered the Guard. Anybody play it yet with opinions?

If its in the Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters codex; then its a Inquisition unit.

no more Space Marines!!??!!?? who will my poor Howling Banshees slaughter in one round of assault now?

please don't take away my Dark Reapers' target practice!!!

Lets face it, if they didh't have space marines from the start than some other army would have replaced them. People naturaly look for something to idealize, and once they find it they'll milk it to the limit. And really, no one would idealize a swarm army, what kind of person would want to imagine themselves as an IG? Not many I'd imagine, but SO many people would love to be like a space marine, perfect in everyway, yep, that sounds nice. Even if they tried to have space marines as an elites choice for the other imperial armies I'm sure there would be people who whould demand that they make them a playable force, the urge to have an army of super human beasts is just to much for some people. Personaly, I've always been atracted to the best of the best, which is what the space marines embody, I've played them for many years and simply can't think of another army that I would enjoy playing. Some suggestions for a SM player looking for an alternative force to play would be appreciated, I'm just tired of playing other SM players. I had thought of playing a guard tank company but didn't think it practical, some feedback would be nice.

Ave Imperator

Well, the 'something else would fill the void and be just as popular' doesn't ring true for me unless GW did the same level of hardline promotion for one of the other armies as they currently do for marines.

I'm of the opinion that the popularity of marines is a self fulfilling prophecy.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well, the 'something else would fill the void and be just as popular' doesn't ring true for me unless GW did the same level of hardline promotion for one of the other armies as they currently do for marines.

I'm of the opinion that the popularity of marines is a self fulfilling prophecy.

This.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well, the 'something else would fill the void and be just as popular' doesn't ring true for me unless GW did the same level of hardline promotion for one of the other armies as they currently do for marines.

I'm of the opinion that the popularity of marines is a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can almost guarantee that the 'level of hardline promotion' is not necessarily the only reason for the popularity of Marines.

Said it once, said it twice, will say it again.

The attitude of the majority of 40k players is WAAC. Even here on Dakka, which is supposedly far more laid back than many other places we have a large population of WAAC 'casual' tournament players.

I mean, remember most of the reasons people here gave for why Cities of Death, Battle Missions, Spearhead, and Apocalypse are all looked down upon?

Because they "do nothing for tournament players".

Even if Marines are gone, something will take the place of them as the powergamer's delight.

Kanluwen wrote:
Even if Marines are gone, something will take the place of them as the powergamer's delight.

That is kinda the point of the hypothetical 'what if' of the original question. I'm thinking that with MEQ no longer in such abundance that it facilitates single choices and with various armies of more extreme play styles therefore in proliferation, it opens up the notion of 'all rounder' lists again.