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liam0404 wrote:What really grinds my gears, is that the current Grey Knights brotherhood champion, is EXACTLY what the Emperor's champion should be - i.e, if he goes down, he goes down fighting. That seems like a complete theft of BT fluff to me.

Agree on the Brotha Champion (the best existing model that comes to mind for such a character is the Emperor's Champion anyway >.<, that and the Chapter Champion from the Vanilla Codex. When we get our new book, all I can say is "TREMBLE!". The Emperor's Champion is gonna have to be balls-to-the-walls crazy to be more champion-ish than the aforementioned models.

He is indeed - I wonder if he will still be compulsory next edition.

liam0404 wrote:He is indeed - I wonder if he will still be compulsory next edition.

He'd better be, otherwise I'll go crusade on GW...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liam0404 wrote:He is indeed - I wonder if he will still be compulsory next edition.

He'd better be, otherwise I'll go crusade on GW...

To the Eternal Crusader!

He will be a complete beast I should think - even more so than he is now. Once change i'd like to see is the option to use the black sword as a power fist again if you want to. That was a useful option.

liam0404 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liam0404 wrote:He is indeed - I wonder if he will still be compulsory next edition.

He'd better be, otherwise I'll go crusade on GW...

To the Eternal Crusader!

He will be a complete beast I should think - even more so than he is now. Once change i'd like to see is the option to use the black sword as a power fist again if you want to. That was a useful option.

Or just make it S8 all the time. Sure, people will scream , but there's so many insane guys out there already, and a 2+/4++ 2W character without EW isn't too hard to kill. It'd make the enemy think twice before sending in a beatstick HQ though, just as it should be!

Well there is a case for it - IIRC isnt Gabriel Seth S8 all the time? Abbadon is as well (that may be stretching it though!)

liam0404 wrote:Well there is a case for it - IIRC isnt Gabriel Seth S8 all the time? Abbadon is as well (that may be stretching it though!)

True, however Seth still has to rely on Rending to get through armour and is a chapter master, and Abaddon is also a chapter master suspected to be a clone of a Primarch (whose S8 comes not without risk). To give BT a room full of weapons superior to the super-rare artefacts wielded by these unique individuals, and to distribute one of these weapons to almost every single fighting company, would perhaps be excessive.

lindsay40k wrote: [...]Abaddon is also a chapter master suspected to be a clone of a Primarch (whose S8 comes not without risk).

No he's not. He's the former Captain of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus 10th company.

lindsay40k wrote:To give BT a room full of weapons superior to the super-rare artefacts wielded by these unique individuals, and to distribute one of these weapons to almost every single fighting company, would perhaps be excessive.

Give Helbrecht S8 then. He's wielding Rogal Dorn's reforged sword for feth's sake! Just look at what a legion relic does in apocalypse, then remember that this is the most awesome form of legion relic! If nothing else, let him dual-wield that and the Sword of Sigismund while frothing at the mouth and shouting MRLGMRLGMRLGMRLGMRLGMRLG!

The new FAQ was enough for me but i would like to see a few more units and maybe some new models

After the Grey Knights release, I am afraid of what they would do to BT, if they updated them.......Prolly give them a better Power to Point Ratio......but they would kill the fluff, which is why I wanna play BT.

I want to see assaulting out of rhinos and razorbacks. I am alos hoping for rightous zeal moves that can allow you to assault at the end of your opponents shooting phase, now that would be Templar!

A kick ass emperor's champion and sword brethren that are BETTER in CC than hammernators.

As already mentioned, updating the stats with things like WS 6 on the marshals and such. This should include updated stats for the special characters.

I also believe they should certainly have an orbital bombardment option (like the Grey knights) as they are a massive fleet based army as well.

Points need to be lowered, and "optional" items like grenades, smoke launchers, and other mandatory wargear items should already be factored into the cost, not force us to pay 3 points per model more, to have the same thing every other chapter already has. Our tanks also need a points adjustment.

Something I would like to stay the same however, is the options available to the Templar. Show me another chapter that can have uber super duper techmarines!?

Certainly need more troop options given the importance of troops. We'll probably get some new special character that allows terminators to be troops, but what else? It will be interesting to see how that gets changed around since fluff doesn't allow true scouts, and neophytes don't fight on their own.

A new "Templar Only" character would be nice. We used to have the Crusader and Emperor's Champion. Now everyone has the Crusader, and the Gray Knights stole our champion (Thankfully not our vows too).

I would like to see them as kings of close combat.

Yeah, I actually really hope the sword brethren have the combat prowess to match anything point for point in CC.

Since they lack psykers, devastators etc. what they lack in range should be made up for in close combat.

I also would like them to retain fearless in CC just from a fluff perspective.

Some form of special character that can go out and beat face, all BT styley.

Power-wise I'm not super worried about the Templars. They're a marine codex, so they'll be showered in the Emperor's Blessings when they get an update.

However, I'll be super-pissed if the Holy Orb of Antioch is removed.

Vladamyr wrote:I am looking into starting BT now, and I agree with alot of points above. But I do feel like they should be more CC related. Thats just what I think of when I think Templars. Unfortunatly I have never had the pleasure of seeing a BT army fielded. So I can't really accuratly judge how they are now.

I've never had the chance to play against one either so I don't know what they are like already. I woudl think making them more close combat based and the combines squads should have some sort of special rule. Maybe something like initiates can take power weapons in combined squads. Would make them more spearhead and mean they were more deadly

Ugh, not more power weapons.

I think the BT are going to lose the ability to give all the vehicles PoftMS. What they should do is give all your vehicles the Assault Vehicle rule the way they made all BA vehicles Fast.

I honestly believe that BT shouldn't be their own 'dex. Give thema special cahracter or two to make BT-themed builds in a SM Codex. Otherwise, just...no. There's enough "run-headlong-into-the-enemy-and-kill-everything-I-win-no-questions-asked" armies as there are.

Kepora wrote:I honestly believe that BT shouldn't be their own 'dex. Give thema special cahracter or two to make BT-themed builds in a SM Codex. Otherwise, just...no. There's enough "run-headlong-into-the-enemy-and-kill-everything-I-win-no-questions-asked" armies as there are.

That... makes little sense really. There are a lot of xenos melee armies, should we get rid of the Orks?

The Black Templar have enough of a difference that they simply would NOT work in the normal marine dex. They don't have scouts. They don't have librarians. They don't have whirlwinds. They don't have devastators. They have their own set of unique rules (such as fearless in cc, and RZ), and they have units that are completely unique to them. Saying the Templar should be apart of the vanilla marine dex would be the same as saying the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, and the Grey Knights all should be as well. In fact, I would say that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels are closer to vanilla marines then the Templar are.

Keep in mind too, that I am under the belief that there should be codicies out there, not less. A branch of melee Tau codex for Farsight, a codex for the different major legions of the Chaos Marines, so on and so forth (With a dedicated team of writers to work on them and their models instead of the meager handful there are now).

People need to stop complaining there are too many marine codicies. Instead, why don't you start asking yourself why not have more options for yourself instead of less.

Amanax wrote:

Kepora wrote:I honestly believe that BT shouldn't be their own 'dex. Give thema special cahracter or two to make BT-themed builds in a SM Codex. Otherwise, just...no. There's enough "run-headlong-into-the-enemy-and-kill-everything-I-win-no-questions-asked" armies as there are.

That... makes little sense really. There are a lot of xenos melee armies, should we get rid of the Orks?

The Black Templar have enough of a difference that they simply would NOT work in the normal marine dex. They don't have scouts. They don't have librarians. They don't have whirlwinds. They don't have devastators. They have their own set of unique rules (such as fearless in cc, and RZ), and they have units that are completely unique to them. Saying the Templar should be apart of the vanilla marine dex would be the same as saying the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, and the Grey Knights all should be as well. In fact, I would say that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels are closer to vanilla marines then the Templar are.

Keep in mind too, that I am under the belief that there should be codicies out there, not less. A branch of melee Tau codex for Farsight, a codex for the different major legions of the Chaos Marines, so on and so forth (With a dedicated team of writers to work on them and their models instead of the meager handful there are now).

People need to stop complaining there are too many marine codicies. Instead, why don't you start asking yourself why not have more options for yourself instead of less.

Actually...it makes perfect sense. Marines are already essentially fearless in CC thanks to "And they shall break all the rules", anda BT Special Character/Captain Upgrade could then impose the restrictions and replace chapter/combat tactics with a couple of BT special rules. Bam, BT army. Rinse and repeat for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc.

I'm all for more codices and WD/Chapter Approved stuff, but if we had even MORE Marine codices the way things are, we're going to have Codex: Emperor's Pointy Sticks before we get a decent Eldar, Necron, or Tau codex.

Amanax wrote:

Kepora wrote:I honestly believe that BT shouldn't be their own 'dex. Give thema special cahracter or two to make BT-themed builds in a SM Codex. Otherwise, just...no. There's enough "run-headlong-into-the-enemy-and-kill-everything-I-win-no-questions-asked" armies as there are.

That... makes little sense really. There are a lot of xenos melee armies, should we get rid of the Orks?

The Black Templar have enough of a difference that they simply would NOT work in the normal marine dex. They don't have scouts. They don't have librarians. They don't have whirlwinds. They don't have devastators. They have their own set of unique rules (such as fearless in cc, and RZ), and they have units that are completely unique to them. Saying the Templar should be apart of the vanilla marine dex would be the same as saying the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, and the Grey Knights all should be as well. In fact, I would say that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels are closer to vanilla marines then the Templar are.

Keep in mind too, that I am under the belief that there should be codicies out there, not less. A branch of melee Tau codex for Farsight, a codex for the different major legions of the Chaos Marines, so on and so forth (With a dedicated team of writers to work on them and their models instead of the meager handful there are now).

People need to stop complaining there are too many marine codicies. Instead, why don't you start asking yourself why not have more options for yourself instead of less.

I do not agree with that sentiment, having too many variations within a codex will make it too confusing. Unless they are going to release a 500 page codex for all SM it needs to be this way. Having the note cost difference between the weapons for the BAs and also noting the differences between the Dev Squads and the Long Fangs and doing this for all units would be too much for a single codex. That does not even take into account the fact that certain Chapters have units others do not have, all the different librarian powers, and not to mention the chapter fluff.

Currently it seems they are starting to cycle through the codices in the order of Imperium, non-Imperium, Imp, non-Imp. If this trend continues then it seems fair to me. From what I've heard Necrons are going to be the next codex that is released.

Kepora wrote:

Amanax wrote:

Kepora wrote:I honestly believe that BT shouldn't be their own 'dex. Give thema special cahracter or two to make BT-themed builds in a SM Codex. Otherwise, just...no. There's enough "run-headlong-into-the-enemy-and-kill-everything-I-win-no-questions-asked" armies as there are.

That... makes little sense really. There are a lot of xenos melee armies, should we get rid of the Orks?

The Black Templar have enough of a difference that they simply would NOT work in the normal marine dex. They don't have scouts. They don't have librarians. They don't have whirlwinds. They don't have devastators. They have their own set of unique rules (such as fearless in cc, and RZ), and they have units that are completely unique to them. Saying the Templar should be apart of the vanilla marine dex would be the same as saying the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, and the Grey Knights all should be as well. In fact, I would say that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels are closer to vanilla marines then the Templar are.

Keep in mind too, that I am under the belief that there should be codicies out there, not less. A branch of melee Tau codex for Farsight, a codex for the different major legions of the Chaos Marines, so on and so forth (With a dedicated team of writers to work on them and their models instead of the meager handful there are now).

People need to stop complaining there are too many marine codicies. Instead, why don't you start asking yourself why not have more options for yourself instead of less.

Actually...it makes perfect sense. Marines are already essentially fearless in CC thanks to "And they shall break all the rules", anda BT Special Character/Captain Upgrade could then impose the restrictions and replace chapter/combat tactics with a couple of BT special rules. Bam, BT army. Rinse and repeat for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc.

I'm all for more codices and WD/Chapter Approved stuff, but if we had even MORE Marine codices the way things are, we're going to have Codex: Emperor's Pointy Sticks before we get a decent Eldar, Necron, or Tau codex.

...and then before you know it, you had a 500 page codex... Yeah no. GW even went away from the "This chapter gets special rules because their this kind of space marines!" ideal with the switch from fourth edition C:SM to fifth edition.

I agree that there shouldn't be any MORE codices for the space marines, but the ones that are different are there for a reason. Throwing them together would be a poor decision.

It comes down to GW needing to better manage their product, not so much that there are too many marines. They should have the codices for EACH race ready for update upon an edition release, not this trickle that we have now.

Yes, there are problems, but stop whining just because you don't like it. I too play a xeno race. In fact, every army I own (Necrons, Eldar, BT, Tau and Chaos Marines) has yet to be updated. I have 0 fifth edition models, and every. Single. One. of the people in this area plays a main army that is fifth edition (Majority is Guard, BA, and Nidz). Do I complain? No. Do I sit in the corner and moan over how my codex is out of date because theirs got done first? No. In short, if you don't like it, go play another game.


For the sake of this thread, here is something to try and get us back on topic -

In the older editions, the Templar were the only space marines to have the Land Raider Crusader, now it's standard. What would you hope to see as a replacement?

Amanax wrote:Certainly need more troop options given the importance of troops. We'll probably get some new special character that allows terminators to be troops, but what else? It will be interesting to see how that gets changed around since fluff doesn't allow true scouts, and neophytes don't fight on their own.

I'm not too sure about an SC that gives us Terminators as troops, I'd guess Helbrecht would make Sword Brethren troops, kinda like Dante makes Sanguinary Guards troops. Speaking of Sword Brethren, they need to go crazy!

One thing I would really, REALLY like to see would be Black Templars Chaplains being OMGWTFBBQ-good to compensate for the lack of Librarians. It'd fit fluff-wise too, as Templar Chaplains are the most zealous of the Templars, who themselves are quite zealous. Grimaldus, similarily, should be a massive force multiplier.

^agreed. Nothing says Black Templar like incense-burning, heretic-purging, zealous warrior priests.

Shrine tank 'nuff said

I want improved Sword Brethren and better WS on our higher tier HQ, like Helbrecht. I mean c'mon, he's the fething High Marshal, he needs at least WS6.
Well I say "needs", more like "I want"

Given that most Marine basic HQs seem to have WS 6 these days... I would agree :(

That's an idea for SB. How about increasing them to WS 5 or 6? And then obviously adjust prices, and give power weapons. Leave the ability to take storm shields, maybe add in the ability to take an apothecary (lol, the MEQ haters would love that, wouldn't they?). However, that would, in my mind, make them feel like what they should be.