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Simply put, I would not pay that kind of money for that kind of terrain. No one needs to get butthurt about it, but that is not where I am going to be putting my cash. The guy has folks buying it, cool. Just saying I won't be in line.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I did read the OP Kanners and still can't find the bit that says please feel free to offer C&C

Again if I have missed it I apologise, but can't see it.
Furthermore there seems to be a lot of macho posturing about "manning up" and getting better.

Then there is criticism about coming into the lion's den and defending himself.
Which is surely a "manly" thing to do?
I will say this, that one needs to make statements that won't wind people up if you want to get some dialogue After Tomorrow.
Now if there were more people like Balance and jgemrich around, Dakka might be a less scary place to be.

Well, the tone is definitely harsh Chibi I admit.

However, this is somewhat brought on by the OP questioning people not realizing the amount of work that goes into his pieces.

As I said in my original post, I gak (see what I did there?) you not that I could knock out any one of those in an hour with the proper prep. What is prep? Having all materials on hand, having the layout of what I am doing pre-planned (a template or idea of one to cut the insulation board) and a can of charcoal spray paint and a pot of lighter gray and a dry brush. Give me that on a table in front of me, and I'm good.

This is the chink in the armor so to speak, he talks about quality and time and respect for it, when to me, or anyone like me, the quality nor time is there. It may take him 15 hours a piece, but that doesn't mean it is 15 hours billable if you understand my meaning. The work is objectively amateurish in it's materials, execution and level of detail or lack thereof. I rarely speak in absolutes, especially here as I despise that quality in an arguement, but there you are.

BUT

And it's a big BUT, as I said in my original post, it absolutely doesn't matter that I or anyone else see's it that way, so long as the OP does have an audience willing to pay. In which case, he will remain a success despite criticism, and his demographic, though limited, is sufficient to sustain a good profit level for him. That's it that's all, and as I and others have said, if he is having a good go of it then good on him.

HOWEVER

And it's a big HOWEVER, trotting out here to bitch about people not recognizing his salsburry steak as filet mignon is also asking for it, and frankly, with no malice, a reality check is called for. Sell the product (and recognize it) for what it is, and don't try to stick a prestigious label on it when A the work should speak for itself anyways and B you spark an arguement that need not take place in which you enter off the bat as a target and abrasive.

I hope my position is clear, and even if you don't agree, that at least it makes sense in terms of the line of reasoning, and that no fundamental offense is meant to the OP for it's own sake.

Deleted

That's a great sounding attitude now!

In way of a constructive suggestion, I would think that designing a higher end kit, and then mass producing it, say 5-20 identical pieces at a time would serve you well. I am sure things will go much faster were you to do each step multiple times in order to maximize your productivity on multiple auctions at once.

You may already be doing this, but just thought I would throw it out there!

Good luck!

I agree with MajorTom on all counts.

Grot 6 wrote:So what are you on about here, anyway?

Are you wanting to know what GAK means, or are you on about here trying to call us out because we've got a different opinion of quality terraign then you do?

That kid asked for an opinion, he got it. I'm not speaking for these other Dakka folks, but I said that stuff could be made easy. Yeah, I said it. That stuff is about average and that you don't need but 20 bucks or so worth of stuff to make yourself some decent or fair to middle of the road terraign on your own.

You want to sit here and sophise that stuff with a shot across the collective bow? Go ahead, and ride that train then.

Like it or not, you are going to take peer review like any other profession, good, bad, or indifferent.

You take it because you put that stuff out there. And on top of that, you put that stuff out there like its some sort of Golden Demon stuff when it's on average. What, You actually think that stuffs something top drawer? A couple of bucks and an hour and you have that AND more. I see potential there, but that stuff needs more life then just a bland coat of grey paint and a little chickenwire on it.

Your stuff got a minor look and a cursory nod. If you think that as some sort of deficiency on your part, thats entirly too bad. That terrain your pumping is on average, if people don't want to pay that much, thats thier choice. Don't come over here like your the terriagn god and think that your selling something special.

Bottom line- Someone asked for an opinion, they got it. You don't like it, then step up your game. And as for all that handicapped stuff, you can stow that stuff, too. You are out there with a website and pimping out wargames terraign, you are an equal in the eyes of the wargaming community, because your trying to turn a profit on wargames terraign.

DO NOT wave that in our collective faces again.

Acting like a Gakhead, thinly disguised as 'telling it like it is'

Reported.

Also, terrain. Not terraign.

To the OP, in a free market we're all free to sell products at whatever price we deem. If people are buying then your price is right.

Would I buy your terrain? No. It just doesn't stand out and it looks like some of the stuff I have produced. I encourage you to continue selling for whatever price you feel is right, especially if it is selling, but try not to take it personally when people critique your work.

Anything you put out on a site like this will be critiqued, sometimes harshly. You've got to be prepared to take those harsh critiques.

Sorry to say it OP but I have to agree with the consensus here, this is pricey for a pretty unpolished product. By that I mean [to me anyway] the materials look pretty identifiable and sections of real world stuff rather than a miniature version of something. Don't get me wrong your youtube table (that vid was 15minutes long with no talking!) looks great and rocking up and finding a city baord like that that someone had made would be impressive, but the scale models that are available elsewhere do look noticably more accurate and therefore arractive to me.

I'm guessing you are using 15-20mm foam insulation for the concrete walls and not foamcore board (will this stand up to game play?), allot of the joints between wall sections seem rather open and clearly looking like a butt jointed board rather than the intended monolithic concrete.

Your tagline notes detail as one of your focus' sorry i'm just not seeing that yet. If I want to fork out £40 on finished scenery I look for something better than I (joe average hobbiest) can produce. For example I have happily bought the Battlefront in a box defences boxset (£50 RRP?) and been well impressed. I would point you to their Normandy bunker/pillbox set as a comparable finished product to yours (scale aside).

Having said all of that for someone that has been doing this for 3 months you are ahead of the curve and I will happily check out your work in the coming months as I think that with your attitude you can really make this a success.

BTW the pillbox/bunker in your compact range really stood out for me. A tidy piece of work looked like it could be from an establish mini company.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:So what are you on about here, anyway?

Are you wanting to know what GAK means, or are you on about here trying to call us out because we've got a different opinion of quality terraign then you do?

That kid asked for an opinion, he got it. I'm not speaking for these other Dakka folks, but I said that stuff could be made easy. Yeah, I said it. That stuff is about average and that you don't need but 20 bucks or so worth of stuff to make yourself some decent or fair to middle of the road terraign on your own.

You want to sit here and sophise that stuff with a shot across the collective bow? Go ahead, and ride that train then.

Like it or not, you are going to take peer review like any other profession, good, bad, or indifferent.

You take it because you put that stuff out there. And on top of that, you put that stuff out there like its some sort of Golden Demon stuff when it's on average. What, You actually think that stuffs something top drawer? A couple of bucks and an hour and you have that AND more. I see potential there, but that stuff needs more life then just a bland coat of grey paint and a little chickenwire on it.

Your stuff got a minor look and a cursory nod. If you think that as some sort of deficiency on your part, thats entirly too bad. That terrain your pumping is on average, if people don't want to pay that much, thats thier choice. Don't come over here like your the terriagn god and think that your selling something special.

Bottom line- Someone asked for an opinion, they got it. You don't like it, then step up your game. And as for all that handicapped stuff, you can stow that stuff, too. You are out there with a website and pimping out wargames terraign, you are an equal in the eyes of the wargaming community, because your trying to turn a profit on wargames terraign.

DO NOT wave that in our collective faces again.

Acting like a Gakhead, thinly disguised as 'telling it like it is'

Reported.

Also, terrain. Not terraign.

Hmmm...

My first inclination is to bust balls, but honestly, YEAH I did tell it like it was based on OLD material, been like a week there, chief. Think you're a bit behind the powercurve.

Especially if all you have to add is to be the preverbial language police. Try being relevent, next time.

Gakkity-gak gak. gak, gak.

ArbitorIan wins that discussion, on the basis of looking slightly like the Edge from U2 (and coming across as less aggressive)

/Final ruling

Deleted

If you want a goal to work towards, this chap makes bespoke gaming terrain and scenery. This is his website.

Some of his work is absolutely stunning, though I am not sure if he works at it full time or not.

Pacific wrote:ArbitorIan wins that discussion, on the basis of looking slightly like the Edge from U2 (and coming across as less aggressive)

/Final ruling

Yes, hes full of win. Must be the tiger blood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:If you want a goal to work towards, this chap makes bespoke gaming terrain and scenery. This is his website.

Some of his work is absolutely stunning, though I am not sure if he works at it full time or not.

... wow. That is some excellent work there.

OP, YOUR stuff isn't horrid. It just needs some detail to it. It comes with studying and continuing your work.

As to the "Standard". The standard is quality endstate. How much all depends on the extra effort to the thing, and to get to that standard you take your subject, such as the basic bunker, and YOU add to it to make it unique. What does that mean? It means just that. I make a bunker out of styro board, then spray on the rough coat, and then add in a paint job. Thats all fine, for a basic bunker. I crank out about four of those, and thats good for a basic, get them to the table sort of a thing. But to go to the next step, I'm heading it to the detail table for a little personalization.

Details- Then in a pinch, I photocopy a couple of those IG posters from the GW site, then cut them out and place the poster slanted to one side or the other, or I fold over a corner and add in a little bit of fleshwash to the corner, so as to make it look torn or faded. Add in a couple of spent bolter shells, and a pile of heavy stubber shells and a stray misfire or two, and then add in a rifle, laying on the floor, or put in a little table and a chair, tipped over on the floor. Outside, you'd have chipped out a couple of damaged scores, a couple of bolter impacts, and a sting of scores to represent lasgun shots, maybe a burnt edging around the pothole, or muderslits, and then add in a little devian mud wash, watered down with some floor polish to the outside, to the roof, as a puddle, or on the edging of the drain.

In effect, what you do is to just add in a secondary and third level of detail that makes the Bunkers different. A lower level of detail to a basic bunker is to just add in a sand layer to the inside of the floor, covering over a plasticard floor, scored with a darked brown wash, then drybrushed in with some lighter tan. The sand adds in a slight realism to the work, and gives the thing a 3D quality to it to give the whole thing perspective. a little more to another, then something different to the third and so on.

In the picture of work 1, on the first page-
(Picture of a T intersection with a figure holding the lasrifle in the standing position)

You have a basic styrofoam building, a corner building with rubble, and anothe building at the top of the T. All three buildings are a good start, but they lack the fill, or the trimming that indicates the building block of a concrete building. You have wood blocked up over a window, but IRL, that wood would be tacked up from the inside, based on the outside of the building not being accessable to tack that wood up with. You want to put the wood out on the building, then slight it off center, like its hasty. add in a couple more for effect, so it looks like the building window was covered. add in MORE wood to another wall, over a breach point, missile hole, or add in a couple of jerry cans, or ammo crates kicked over with something leaking out of them, or fill the crate with a little greenstuff and sand pushed into the top of it, for cover inside the room.

Detail to the outside of the roadway; You could have spread a little bit of woodglue to the clearing area, added in a sprinkle of sand, and some increased sizes of rubble bits to the roadway, seeing as the rubble doesn't spew out of the doorway of the rubble building, that is something to be added as well.

Building; Discoloration, based on flamer damage, wear and tear from explosive damage, and even some of those said IG posters and odds and ends, such as tackedup IG edicts to evecuate, or NOTICES, signs, or stensiles of numbers or pictures, could be added. Your buildings are all generic, you could add in a light wash of a slightly lighter, or darker color for a base color of the buildings, added in a lighter or darker coat to offset that basecolor, and then added in some wash work to bring out some of the detail of the building. Other things to add might be to chip out some of those 90 degree angles, use a foam cutter to add in breach holes to the walls in between the buildings, add in discoloration to the well worn walk ways, entery and exit points, or added damage to window openings, representing fire and small arms damage.

Rubble pile; Add in some I beam into thr rubble, and maybe even some odds and ends from the bits box, and then spash in a couple of puddles, from the floorwax/wash mix, into some of the indentations of the higher levels of the buldings.

THIS is the level of detail that people go to add to the realism. As for the work being Unique, that comes with these added levels of detail and doing it in such a fashion to add THAT level of detail to the work in question. You don't need to go over board on it, but some level of detail is going to need to be given that extra ten yards to make someone want to buy it.

Its not about coming out of the gate with that level quality. It's about getting to that point, and using that level of quality as a standard to strive to.
Even something as rudimetary as a trenchline, or a machinegun nest can be taken to the next level by just the basic of additional details.