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naturally, i will try and shoot wyches and harlies down and not engage in CC if i can help it.

Grey Templar wrote:naturally, i will try and shoot wyches and harlies down and not engage in CC if i can help it.

I see, but you are going to let the Genestealers in without a a shot? Elfracist!

Falchions own. +2 attacks? Yeah, I'll take it.

You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, thanks for that wonderful insight.

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, that contributes zero to the decision of which weapon is best. Thanks, though. Just for you, I'll exitus your lead demolisher turn 1.

ph34r wrote:

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, that contributes zero to the decision of which weapon is best. Thanks, though. Just for you, I'll exitus your lead demolisher turn 1.

and Vindicare another same time.


your Demolishers will be down before they get into 24"(which is incidentially the GK sweet spot)

Grey Templar wrote:

ph34r wrote:

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, that contributes zero to the decision of which weapon is best. Thanks, though. Just for you, I'll exitus your lead demolisher turn 1.

and Vindicare another same time.


your Demolishers will be down before they get into 24"(which is incidentially the GK sweet spot)

The Exitus is the Vindicare's sniper rifle

Exergy wrote:
Genestealers, harlequins and wyches(and wych like things) go simo.
Various DE things with FC will go simo and wyches(and wych like things) with FC will still go first.

I cant think of anything else that shows up in quantity.

Anything with Lash Whips will go first.

That's why you line up your models with falchions, hammers, swords, and staves in the front with halberds in the back.

Halberds go at the same time as the tyrant/swarmlord, and the rest go last anyway. Since the halberds have already attacked, you can apply wounds to them first because they're not needed anymore.

ph34r wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

ph34r wrote:

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, that contributes zero to the decision of which weapon is best. Thanks, though. Just for you, I'll exitus your lead demolisher turn 1.

and Vindicare another same time.


your Demolishers will be down before they get into 24"(which is incidentially the GK sweet spot)

The Exitus is the Vindicare's sniper rifle

Riiiight.


tooo laaaate for thinking.

nap time now

I would never take them on Strike or Interceptor squads, since 10 points a piece is way to much.

10p a piece???
Wheee, yet another completely useless wargear. Thanks Ward.

What moron took away needed PAGK sprue place with falchions when there could be more halbeards or other nice things on the sprue.
But no, they decided to stick somehting in there that is overpriced so that no one will ever use it. Talk about epic fail between GW cast and GW dev teams.
Poor ebay, will be stuffed full of GK falchions leftovers for sale.

ph34r wrote:

lunarman wrote:You hit me at I6, I'll land three demolisher shells on your head before that happens.

Yeah, that contributes zero to the decision of which weapon is best. Thanks, though. Just for you, I'll exitus your lead demolisher turn 1.

Sorry about the moronic thing to say! Clearly I am incapable of thought at 3 in the morning.

However, on topic. I think that Init is worth a ton more than extra attacks. We've all seen extra attacks before, lots of armies can do attacks on mass, but often you get to hit back, so the threat is not so great. However, inti 6 is a scary thing. Especially with power weapons. No much can stand up to that, and it's likely you'll kill most things entirely before they even get to strike.

I think that's what my demolisher comment was referring too, a unit armed all with Halberds is too scary to assault at all, so you'd have to shoot them. It'd be the only way to take them down.

In short, I really feel halberds are better. Winning the combat but denying the enemy the ability to fight (by killing them first) is a far surer way to win than by wounding them with enough attacks to make them flee (as have to suffer hits yourself).

I am not so sure.


with PAGKs only having 1 base attack the extra attack is useful.

and the upgrade only makes them as expensive as they were previously(IIRC)

it does occur to me that it really depends what army you are facing

Showing up with a bunch of halberds and watch your opponenet laugh when he starts unpacking his Orks or Guard. You have just spent a ton of points for nothing.

The extra attack is just about always useful though

Exergy wrote:
it does occur to me that it really depends what army you are facing

Showing up with a bunch of halberds and watch your opponenet laugh when he starts unpacking his Orks or Guard. You have just spent a ton of points for nothing.

The extra attack is just about always useful though

TBH, with all the S5 shooting from PAGK, Orks or Guardsmen outside transports are gonna bite the dust anyway. Does it suck that you paid some points for better I against them? Sure. But it won't make or break your army, unless you were dumb enough to not bring something that handles Orks or Guardsmen too.

Exergy wrote:
The extra attack is just about always useful though

Except in situations against Furious Charge assault units, or various IC and 'agile' assault units with base I5 or higher. Against those you're losing whole models at a lower I value, so fewer attacks at higher I is worth more than extra attacks (rounded down to 0 attacks when the model dies) at lower I.

Clearly there's a balance to be struck here. I'm guessing Purifiers will stick with Halberds and Termis will go for some mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if Termis also favored halberds more heavily.

Why on earth would you try to kill GKanything in close combat? The mind boggles.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Why on earth would you try to kill GKanything in close combat? The mind boggles.

Because you normally run Wyches or Stealers or Assault Marines or TH/SS Terminators and you don't actually get to change lists mid-round in a tournament or you don't tailor in casual play...?

Pyriel- wrote:

I would never take them on Strike or Interceptor squads, since 10 points a piece is way to much.

10p a piece???
Wheee, yet another completely useless wargear. Thanks Ward.

This is why I thought they were +2 attacks, they are more expensive than thunder hammers on alot of models and remove the +1 invuln or +2 I both of which seem more valuable overall.

Here's another thought: would it be worth stuffing a master crafted daemonhammer on every sarg? or would you rather MC a heavy weapon? or is it a waste.

sourclams wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Why on earth would you try to kill GKanything in close combat? The mind boggles.

Because you normally run Wyches or Stealers or Assault Marines or TH/SS Terminators and you don't actually get to change lists mid-round in a tournament or you don't tailor in casual play...?

The poor fools!

If the opponent has some CC units they will be using them in CC, even if it's a hopeless matchup.


also, things like Banshees, Harlies, or Incubi will in almost all cases be hitting first with MEQs.

when they find things that are hitting before them or at the same time they will struggle(I know Banshees will be going first in the first round, but then again it's just a comparative thing)

Halberds are +2 I, falchions is +1 A, and sword is +1 inv save in HtH if the model already has an inv save.

Halberds and swords are free for GKT while falchions are +5 points.

The +2 I is HUGE. You are striking at genestealer speed with power weapons, potentially a S 5 power weapon if you pass a psychic check. This gets ludicrous with rad grenades and might of titan (insta kill T4 models anyone?)

The sword works well with Grand Master and the Brother Captain, 3++ in HtH is nice, and they are base 5 I anyway. The only other thing worth it is the hammer. S10 hammers is a wonderful thing.

I plan to run 2 units of 5 terminators with 4 halberds, 1 hammer, psybolt ammo and psycannon for a total of 245 as troops. Add more halberd GKT to taste.

I really don't see a need to ever take the falchion or staff. But I'm open to other opinions.

the scandex had the halbards as free for PAGKs.

did that get changed?

Will wrote:
The sword works well with Grand Master and the Brother Captain, 3++ in HtH is nice, and they are base 5 I anyway.

Or, if you have the points, a warding stave. 2++ in close combat is hard to top.

Will wrote:Halberds are +2 I, falchions is +1 A, and sword is +1 inv save in HtH if the model already has an inv save.

Halberds and swords are free for GKT while falchions are +5 points.

The +2 I is HUGE. You are striking at genestealer speed with power weapons, potentially a S 5 power weapon if you pass a psychic check. This gets ludicrous with rad grenades and might of titan (insta kill T4 models anyone?)

The sword works well with Grand Master and the Brother Captain, 3++ in HtH is nice, and they are base 5 I anyway. The only other thing worth it is the hammer. S10 hammers is a wonderful thing.

I plan to run 2 units of 5 terminators with 4 halberds, 1 hammer, psybolt ammo and psycannon for a total of 245 as troops. Add more halberd GKT to taste.

I really don't see a need to ever take the falchion or staff. But I'm open to other opinions.

I completely agree with this summary, however Id argue the staff to be worth it as 2++ is huge, particularly against the likes of hammernators. personally i'd probably include a single sword in that unit too...

now, is the Warding Staff still a force weapon?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Will wrote:
The sword works well with Grand Master and the Brother Captain, 3++ in HtH is nice, and they are base 5 I anyway.

Or, if you have the points, a warding stave. 2++ in close combat is hard to top.

That part needs to be seen
there are many good upgrades for GK's, mixing and matching them around instead of just taking everything will take some play testing.

I think warding staves are only worth it for more expensive units, not so much for IC's and such.

Grundz wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:

I would never take them on Strike or Interceptor squads, since 10 points a piece is way to much.

10p a piece???
Wheee, yet another completely useless wargear. Thanks Ward.

This is why I thought they were +2 attacks, they are more expensive than thunder hammers on alot of models and remove the +1 invuln or +2 I both of which seem more valuable overall.

Here's another thought: would it be worth stuffing a master crafted daemonhammer on every sarg? or would you rather MC a heavy weapon? or is it a waste.

Considering that a MC Daemonhammer would only cost 15 more points on basic strike squads, and hammerhand gives the S bonus before doubling... S10 hammers with "Only" 2 attacks base look awfully tempting. Certainly better than PFs on regular marines. Gah, I would say that yes, it is nearly always worth it, even if you don't plan on being aggressive with the unit.

The pair of falcions costing 10 pts is only on PAGKs On GKT models they only cost 5 pts. The reasoning I believe is that the basic sword only gives an increased invul save if you already have one. The PAGK give up no invul if they change weapons, any upgrade is without a drawback other than cost. GW believes (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that doubling a models number of attacks should cost more than a bump in I. Due to how upgrades are in increments of 5, it make the falcions too costly at 10 pts per. In GKT the switch to halberds comes at the cost of a slightly worse invul in CC, so it is a "free" upgrade. Adding 1 attack with falcions takes away the invul, but only increases the number of attacks by 50% so only costs 5 pts.

All nemesis weapons are force weapons.

That 2++ in HtH is going to cost you 20 points.

Halberds are +5 for PAGK. Not worth it in the troop squads, but definitely worth it in the interceptors.

For inteceptors, max 10 men units with psybolt ammo, 1 hammer and 5 halberds will run you 315. I like the 9 halberds and hammer look better, but hard to justify the extra 20 points.

Hammernators die to S5 storm bolters and I6 power weapon attacks.