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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Avatar - assuming 5 long fangs shooting MM at the DK you aren't getting 4 wounds. (5*2/3*5/6*2/3 = ~ 2 wounds, total. You have to be within 6" for arjac as well, from memory. The DK can then scoot 12" (+run) OR a shunt of 30" away from you if he's worried. Your point sink then gets hit by rending *everything*

Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

Thanks for playing.

That purifier nonsense is gonna frustrate me with foot guard. And the 2++ in close combat makes the power swords null and void...good thing I have mechvet spam to switch back to.

Genuinely not looking forward to this codex. Though it is 'just another MEQ' codex, its beginning to make C:SM look like an all around inferior codex. GK just feel too...gimmicky right now. I'll wait to make any real judgements for when I play them, but I have some serious doubts about the balance of GK...

chaos0xomega wrote:
2. Its a weaker version of the Wraithlord, meh

Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

AvatarForm wrote:
Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Or, just perhaps, you have no idea of my knowledge / experience / abiilty frmo your end, and are being needlessly antagonistic. Oh yeah, that one.

First logical fallacy, ad hominem attacks.

AvatarForm wrote:Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

And? What part of "your point sink unit gets hit by rending EVERYTHING" did you miss. Why would I charge your unit when you 3+ PA guys drop like flies to assault and psycannon? I never even mentioned assaulting!
Second logical fallacy, strawman

AvatarForm wrote:It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Its a point sink thats only "trick" is to MM the turn it drops in (why yes I'd included that in my calculations for first turn woinds. Weird that I happen to know the simplest and most overrated trick in the book. Yawn) and then die to concerted fire. Every time, especially against an army which forces as many saves (thanks to profligate S6 weapons) as GK can.

Third logical fallacy - appeal to authority (essentially)

AvatarForm wrote:Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

WEll how about, maybe, explaining how 6" per turn units catch units standing off at the same range as you, and that have more ablative wounds than you do? (twin Psycannon PAGK) especially not the dreadknight, who in one turn is out of range of your unit, leaving it to trundle slwoly across the field until it becomes worthwhile killing

4th fallacy, but same as before - ad hominem.

AvatarForm wrote:You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

CAPS are like SHOUTING and ANNOYING to read. You have also added another 70 odd points to your points sink, whcih you now cant fit in a Drop Pod - good going!

(2 spaces for Logan, 2 for Arjac, 2 for the Cyclone, 5 MM + Sarge = 12. Maths fail or cheating on your part?)

Additionally: did you not notice that I gave you shots at the dreadknight the only turn you can g'tee to be in range? I know what the High King rule does and had *gasp* factored it in to the maths above, to show the average numebr of wounds before the dreadknight moves out of range (it might not, as he has a good shot at killing Logan, especially with sword / paired fists)

AvatarForm wrote:Thanks for playing.

WEll, I make it 4 fallacies on your part, repeated attacks on the person not the argument, and zero supporting argument from yourself vis a vis any "tactic" despite your apparent great knowledge of them. SO, how's that score looking?

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

You can kill a Trygon, right???

Sure, it's more survivable than the Trygon against AP3 (Missile Launchers), but then, it doesn't get 7 attacks on the charge either, and it doesn't get re-rolls to hit (unless you take a Great Sword, reducing you S6 and giving you -1 attack.

The only cheesy thing about it is 30" Scout Shunting, and that is a gimmick. I gaurantee you that you will never, ever, face 3 Dreadknights Scout Shunting into your lines on turn 1. It's too many points, requires luck on the Grand Strategy roll, and forces the GK player to sacrifice S8 Riflemen Dreads.

As a tau player I actualy have a little less to fear now. So long as my screening kroot can keep them away I can outshoot the living snot out of them. I dont care how many dreadknights they have. Six broadsides with twin linked S10 AP 1 will bring the pain.

I love this topic . . . Its giving me many ideas . . . I want my codex now

Open to any page in the GK army list. That.

Seriously, I am already sick of GK. How many lists have we seen and the codex hasn't even been officially released beyond the black box.

over.

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons? Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

puma713 wrote:

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons? Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

And that wouldn't get FAQ'd as soon as GW realized what they've done? Think about it, why give something Str. 10 weapons if it can't use them?

puma713 wrote: So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons?

Absolutely not.

Nemesis Force Sword grants +1 to a models existing invul in CC only.

Nemesis Great Sword (which is what a DK can take) allows rerolls to hit, to wound, and to armor penetrate.

puma713 wrote:Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

Nemesis Doomfist is just a DCCW. RAW, no, it doesn't work (I don't think... I don't have the main rule book in front of me), but it will be played as giving the DK effective S10, and an extra attack for having 2.


I guess the question then would be, (A) does the main rulebook entry on DCCWs specifically say "walkers only", and (B) did Matt Ward intend this, or is he just lacking mental alacrity? I tend to lean towards the latter.

shealyr wrote:I guess the question then would be, (A) does the main rulebook entry on DCCWs specifically say "walkers only", and (B) did Matt Ward intend this, or is he just lacking mental alacrity? I tend to lean towards the latter.

Word. I guess it's just more proof that GW really should hire proof-readers...

Its odd as Matt is normally solid on rules.

The other issue is Jokaero stupidity. 6 in the unit? You get no bonuses, well done!"

Forgive me for being a jerk, but what I'm not looking forward to is facing an army of models that I find ugly. I don't mean to offend anyone that likes the models, honestly, if you do, I'm happy for you, but they're not to my liking.

Other than that, the only real complaint I have is that I had some interest of using Daemons in 40k, now if anyone in my group gets Grey Knights, I think not.

The Fragile Breath wrote:Forgive me for being a jerk, but what I'm not looking forward to is facing an army of models that I find ugly. I don't mean to offend anyone that likes the models, honestly, if you do, I'm happy for you, but they're not to my liking.

Other than that, the only real complaint I have is that I had some interest of using Daemons in 40k, now if anyone in my group gets Grey Knights, I think not.

I will still be interested to see how Khorne Daemons do against GK. I don't remember what all can have Collars of Khorne, but I believe Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes at the very least. All the things that you'd want to kill with Force Weapons that have a 2+ against Force Weapons. And many of them have armor besides their normal armor. Sure, the bloodletters don't and they'll feel the sting, but I interested to see the first Khorne vs. GK batrep.

I'm scared of the stupid Psyrileman Dreadnoughts - S8 will wreck my transports. Also, if I played Orks I would be terrified of the Vindicare, killing off your PK Nob isn't nice.

Purifiers look nasty, too. I know they have 2 Attacks base, and can have 4 psycannons in a squad, but what exactly does Purifying Flame do?

Wounds every enemy in the close combat on a 4+ BEFORE any attacks are made (so before I10!)

It ruins hordes.

Ah, okay. Awesome, the PK Nob-less Ork Mob thanks to the Vindicare Assassin will get, um, wrecked. Wow, Purifiers sound sick.

An army of Orange Space Monkies firing rending Multi-melta's from their heads for great justice.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:An army of Orange Space Monkies firing rending Multi-melta's from their heads for great justice.

I think this line sums up so many different levels of the GK Codex is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Or, just perhaps, you have no idea of my knowledge / experience / abiilty frmo your end, and are being needlessly antagonistic. Oh yeah, that one.

First logical fallacy, ad hominem attacks.

AvatarForm wrote:Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

And? What part of "your point sink unit gets hit by rending EVERYTHING" did you miss. Why would I charge your unit when you 3+ PA guys drop like flies to assault and psycannon? I never even mentioned assaulting!
Second logical fallacy, strawman

AvatarForm wrote:It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Its a point sink thats only "trick" is to MM the turn it drops in (why yes I'd included that in my calculations for first turn woinds. Weird that I happen to know the simplest and most overrated trick in the book. Yawn) and then die to concerted fire. Every time, especially against an army which forces as many saves (thanks to profligate S6 weapons) as GK can.

Third logical fallacy - appeal to authority (essentially)

AvatarForm wrote:Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

WEll how about, maybe, explaining how 6" per turn units catch units standing off at the same range as you, and that have more ablative wounds than you do? (twin Psycannon PAGK) especially not the dreadknight, who in one turn is out of range of your unit, leaving it to trundle slwoly across the field until it becomes worthwhile killing

4th fallacy, but same as before - ad hominem.

AvatarForm wrote:You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

CAPS are like SHOUTING and ANNOYING to read. You have also added another 70 odd points to your points sink, whcih you now cant fit in a Drop Pod - good going!

(2 spaces for Logan, 2 for Arjac, 2 for the Cyclone, 5 MM + Sarge = 12. Maths fail or cheating on your part?)

Additionally: did you not notice that I gave you shots at the dreadknight the only turn you can g'tee to be in range? I know what the High King rule does and had *gasp* factored it in to the maths above, to show the average numebr of wounds before the dreadknight moves out of range (it might not, as he has a good shot at killing Logan, especially with sword / paired fists)

AvatarForm wrote:Thanks for playing.

WEll, I make it 4 fallacies on your part, repeated attacks on the person not the argument, and zero supporting argument from yourself vis a vis any "tactic" despite your apparent great knowledge of them. SO, how's that score looking?

Actually, you are still assuming that they are standing out in the open and that your sound theory is correct. Which it is not.

I love how you believe that your use of ad hominem, when applied to others, excludes your original ad hominem.

I will now leave you in the very safe hands of your fellow gamers to go play games with real people who actually play 40k on a table and not on an Internet forum with theorycrafted lists only.

AvatarForm wrote:
Actually, you are still assuming that they are standing out in the open and that your sound theory is correct. Which it is not.

But you WOULD be standing out in the open! You just drop podded! Otherwise we'd have to take into account that you have to roll for dangerous terrain. And really, if you're up against SW with that kind of drop pod loadout, would you have your DK linger close to area terrain? I know I wouldn't at least. Adding a wolf guard terminator when there wasn't one earlier, overloading your drop pod in the process, isn't that smart BTW. As we all know, Space Wolves in terminator armour counts as seven times the beard level of a power armoured Space Wolf, and when combined with the beard of Logan the beard-factor goes through the roof! The amount of Space Wolf beards in such a small area would create a signature so powerful that the Grey Knight Strike Cruiser that was somehow hiding from your ship in orbit can lock on to them and annihalate them with the Nemesis Exterminatusiator Cannon.

Avatar - please quote this "ad hominem" I made. I'll be waiting.

1) YOu just drop podded in. You're in the open, or damn close to it. Given you want to be able to fire all your MM at the target, at best 2 (assuming you illegal number is reduced by 1 so you can actually fit in the pod) will be around the pod; the other 5 will be in plain sight

If you wanted to be in cover, you're likely to need to run. The odds of there being cover *exactly* where you need it to shoot the dreadknight AND that your pod scatters into is is extremely low.

2) this isnt theory hammer. This is: how many wounds, on average, will you get in the ONE turn you will get before, if it wants, the DK is the other end of the table outside of your 24" range.

It is meant to show you that your "drop pod LF kill DK!!!!" is wrong, on average, unless the GK player has decided to walk their dreadknights.

Thats it. BTW - off to play in a tournament tomorrow, quick 1 dayer, and have 2 tournaments (UK IndyGT and Vanquish) in the next couple of weeks. I play *plenty* of real games. Just pointing out that your point sink is, indeed, a point sink. There's a reason it doesnt feature in actually competitive lists

BTW - any chance you'll acknowledge your inabilty to count / deliberate cheating on the drop pod numbers? It was really VERY funny.

FFS, just stop. You two are accomplishing what by arguing exactly? Oh, right. Getting the thread locked.

On topic! I'm not looking forward to a 3 cc-oriented dreadknight list. Sure, it's expensive, but I feel like the infantry units will be exceptional at controlling midfield, (and even their own deployment zone if they combat squad some units,) while dreadknights shunt about and force the opponent to focus fire before they run the table by themselves.

Who else actually refuses to field a DK without a Heavy Incinerator? Coz I sure as hell do! I have seen what they can do on a 12 12 10 fast vehicle, on a chassis like a DK these things are going to wreck face.

What I am disappointed about is the heavy psycannon and the heavy psilencer. I would be happy to put a normal psycannon on the DK for 10 points

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote: So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons?

Absolutely not.

Nemesis Force Sword grants +1 to a models existing invul in CC only.

Nemesis Great Sword (which is what a DK can take) allows rerolls to hit, to wound, and to armor penetrate.

The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

An0maly1 wrote:As a tau player I actualy have a little less to fear now. So long as my screening kroot can keep them away I can outshoot the living snot out of them. I dont care how many dreadknights they have. Six broadsides with twin linked S10 AP 1 will bring the pain.

also Crisis suits with a plasma rifle or a fusion blaster (or both) could use jump-shoot-sump to avoid being assaulted while chipping away at it's wounds.

And that's why we have interceptors.

I just got a look at the codex last night. I think the 24" range on Psycannons will really have a lessoning effect on thier perceived power. They look great at killing all sorts of stuff - troops and vehicles - however you need to get close to do that and longer range weapons can whittle the unit down before the psycannon can shoot.

About the only thing the GK codex will do to my list is to give serious thought to changing a few meltaguns into plasmaguns.

Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.