Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GeckoOBac wrote:Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.

It always strikes at initiative order. DCCWs (assuming they are intended to work on the DK, but really, why wouldn't they?) increases your S to 10 and ignores saves. Doesn't work like a fist.

Fafnir wrote:The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

No kidding. Swap those two around, and you gots some real broken units.

Could you imagine 2+/3++ in close combat on the DK? It would never die.

As a Tau player? 10-30 scouting, shunting, first turn assaulting fast attack PA marines hitting my lines.

My Marines will just do what they do.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.

It always strikes at initiative order. DCCWs (assuming they are intended to work on the DK, but really, why wouldn't they?) increases your S to 10 and ignores saves. Doesn't work like a fist.

You're right... Perhaps it was different in fourth? I seem to recall they worked like PFs... Now that I read again the codex though, it seems to me that the sword + DCCW combo wouldn't make it lose the additional attack... I guess it can be argued it's a special weapon + ccw combo... Daemon hammer otoh will make you lose the additional attack... For no reason? I mean, you get str 10 anyway, nemesis doomfists are force weapons anyway (since they are "nemesis") and the daemon hammer has no other advantage... So, what's the point?

shealyr wrote:

Fafnir wrote:The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

No kidding. Swap those two around, and you gots some real broken units.

Could you imagine 2+/3++ in close combat on the DK? It would never die.

4++. The Dreadknight has a 5++ save base.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:4++. The Dreadknight has a 5++ save base.

Ah yeah. I keep forgetting about the invul nerf.

If dreadknights were able to carry power staves, it would be real scary!
2+/2++ save in combat...
Luckally thy can't so everything is all good, right?
Wrong!
They are GK, and GK have str5 bolters, and force weapons, and wait, they have storm bolters.
Does anyone know if they still have 'True Grit' (uses storm bolters as pistols)?

Sadly, no.

That's one good thing for nonGK players, good FOR GK players

Vasarto wrote:What do you think are some of the things you are not gonna be looking forward to fighting against when the Grey knights come out?

Here is a small list of what I do not looking forward to seeing on the battle field against me.

1. Termi's as a basic troop choice - Anyone who plays them will only use them at all point levels. So that will not be comfy seeing nothing by an entire 2/5 army standing in front of me.

Doesn't bother me in the least. If they want to make an army with 20something models in 2000pts, I'll be happy to table them in two or three turns.

2. Nemesis Dread Knight - I do not know what this thing is or what it does but from the look of the GW model I never want to see it. It looks scary.

It's much less scary than its leaked playtest stats, they toned it down a whole hell of a lot. It'll be one of the best MC's out there to be sure, but if you can deal with 3 Trygons or 3 Carnifexes you can certainly deal with 3 of these.

3. I heard some scary things about their snipers. If it comes true than this will be the third option I do not want to see.

I wouldn't be too worried, they cost as much as a Leman Russ tank and only get one shot a turn that is only going to be harming one model.

I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

AvatarForm wrote:
Dreadknight - I have a squad of Long Fangs (drop pod option) with Logan and Arjac Rockfist... where is the problem?

The problem being that you're spending 620pts to combat a 130pt model might be one? Hell you could get 3 Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers and Heavy Psycannons, or 3 naked Dreadknights with a Venerable Psyammo Rifleman with points to spare for the cost of that one squad. If you're including that Cyclone Termi, then you're at almost 700pts for that single unit, in which case you could take two S8 Rifleman Dreads and three Dreadknights for the same points.

I know what I'd rather take.

(hint, not the Long Fangs)

Vasarto wrote:I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

The statue outside GW HQ is a Space Marine, not an Ork. 'Nuff said.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Vasarto wrote:I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

The statue outside GW HQ is a Space Marine, not an Ork. 'Nuff said.

Whateveh Thats just cuz they like Marines! I am sure they all have Ork Statues in front of their homes....watching over their house like gargoyles.

My tau and tyri's aren't going to stand a chance are they..:\
grey knights sound quite over powered, not looking forward to having to face them thats for sure.

And the whole termi's being put as troops the deathwing do that more then enough but they never had what the grey knights do, Could be a nerf coming :p

Jokearo (Spell Check?) Spam. That better be banned from my FLGS... Termies dont really scare me much since Splitter Fire is so hot.

Gecko - DCCW have NEVER been powerfists. they are power weapons that double your strength, nothing else

You DO lose the attack if you take the greatsword; 2 different special CCW means no bonus attack, ever!

Both my DK have heavy incinerators. REasonable point cost, but means they can reach out and touch up to 24" away.

Vaktathi - what you missed was there were 12 spaces used in the +Cyclone list (illegal), the poster was now magically claiming they were all in cover (despite cover not being mentioned by anyone as being an issue, I just mentioned them getting shot by everything, and the unlikely chance of you shoving them in cover, even if you land near enough) - the poster then emoragequit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You DO lose the attack if you take the greatsword; 2 different special CCW means no bonus attack, ever!

Blood Angels Codex, page 60 wrote:
A blood fist is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. If a Dreadnought is equipped with a blood fist and a force weapon, it must choose which one it is going to use in each round of close combat, but will still gain one additional attack.

Ah, but a bloodfist is NOT a doomfist.

They may both be ccw on a dread-type, but that is where the comparison should end.

Grim Smasha wrote:Oh, and the Dreadknight is far better than a Wraithlord.

I don't really agree. When I saw the Dreadknight was T6, I knew it was over for them right then and there. Everything shooting at it will wound it on a 2+ and given that it's probably the tallest thing a non-Apocalypse game will have on the table, everyone will be able to shoot at it the whole game. Almost every army that has decent assault choices will have S6+ powerey goodness to smack it around with in assaults as well. This leaves the Dreadknight with a 5++ which will make it die to most assault troops in one turn.

I think the fact that a Wraithlord is T8 makes it far superior. Yeah it has a lot less firepower than a Dreadknight, but it will have a lot more survivability. They probably should have kept the invuln save of the Dreadknight a 4++ or bumped it up to at least T7.

You're going to find the few people who like the model fielding it because of the model, and no one else will have one. "Competitive" lists will probably have purifier/dread/Inquisitor spam with maybe one Dreadknight to play boogie man and draw fire.

For less than what a couple MM/HF Land Speeders cost, S6 T6 W4 2+/5++ with 3-4 attacks, is a bargain. It was downright broken in the playtest leak, now it's merely "really good".

Vaktathi - what you missed was there were 12 spaces used in the +Cyclone list (illegal), the poster was now magically claiming they were all in cover (despite cover not being mentioned by anyone as being an issue, I just mentioned them getting shot by everything, and the unlikely chance of you shoving them in cover, even if you land near enough) - the poster then emoragequit

That too. Sounds like he got all excited by his Über combo, then realized it was grossly expensive and overly finicky (and illegal) for what it was required to kill, but didn't want to own up to it.

Fafnir - what the feth has the Blood Angel BLOODfist got to do with a Grey Knight DOOMfist. They are NOT the same weapon.

Vaktathi - the irony was telling us they were off to play real gamers. Gamers who presumably let them cheat

It was a points sink and is pretty damn uncompetitive against anyone, never mind this one target that can simply flit out of range for the entire game if it really wants to (not thazt it would - it has a damn good chance of mincing the unit before getting killed, as Logan wounds on 5s)

Im looking forward to fighting the GK, even with that stupid "Oh you killed my squad hero? Well you Im taking that model to the grave with him." The dreadknight is scary, but I dont think he has enough punch and can get ganked easily against poison and snipers, or does he get FNP with a 2+ save?

To be honest, its basic scout shunting that bother me.

Termies and the knight arent the fastest things in the world, so lance spam will remove them if and when needed.

9 lances
7 hits
6 wounds
2 passed inv saves
4 unsaved wounds
dead

May run into a 2nd turn of shooting, but thats fine.
Termies drop just as easy.

Mainly its the scout shunting that will be a pain in the arse until it gets FAQ'ed.

chromedog wrote:Ah, but a bloodfist is NOT a doomfist.

They may both be ccw on a dread-type, but that is where the comparison should end.

Oooh, you're right. I always thought of Bloodfist being just a stupid renaming of CCW, but I guess that since they do have separate entries, you have to treat them as such. fething Ward.

OK I just read through the actual codex. Its broken as hell. Here is what some of the things I remember


Purifiers and paladins as troop choices. Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

Purifiers force anything they go into close combat with to all take armor saves. So if they assault or are assaulted by a 30 boy squad. That Ork player must take 30 armor saves before combat even begins.
Those wounds goes towards the winning value at the end of combat. Example! Purifier deal six wounds with their ability and take out four more in CC. They are winning by 10 wounds.

Paladins when accompanied by this thing. Are 2 wound termi's with feel no pain rule.. Also able to become troop choices but only if the Grand Master is your HQ.

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

Grey Knights are not something that its a matter of time to learn how to deal with. What I saw was the biggest OP thing I have ever seen from ANY codex thus far.
The only thing that I could possibly see being an equalizer are high initiative power weapons or someone whom spams Wolftooth necklace. If you are not doing that. Winning in CC against Grey knights will
be impossible for any current army.

So my suggestion. Use those STR10 Ap1 Large Blast templates. Spam the living crap out of Ap 2 and 1 items. Shoot the ever living crap out of them and hope that the Grey Knight player did not put a whole lot of their awesome heavy options in. Because that is the only way to beat a Grey Knight player when that codex drops.

Vasarto wrote:
Purifiers and paladins as troop choices.

Purifiers as troops requires you to take an absolutely horrible special character, and Paladins as troops are massive point sinks that will be quickly felled by any army with a decent amount of anti-armour weaponry.

Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

From a fluff perspective, that actually makes sense. From a gameplay perspective, they are quite expensive, and won't be the starring in most competetive lists because they just can't bring the numbers.

Purifiers force anything they go into close combat with to all take armor saves. So if they assault or are assaulted by a 30 boy squad. That Ork player must take 30 armor saves before combat even begins.

Wrong. Each enemy model is wounded on a 4+, and then they must take an armour save (they do this once for each Purifier Squad they are in combat with). It's very powerful, especially if used every single turn, but requires the purifiers to forgo hammerhand (unless with an independant character to cast it for them) and is largely useless against heavy infantry and walkers.

Those wounds goes towards the winning value at the end of combat. Example! Purifier deal six wounds with their ability and take out four more in CC. They are winning by 10 wounds.

That's kind of the idea. Got to deal with hordes somehow.

Paladins when accompanied by this thing. Are 2 wound termi's with feel no pain rule.. Also able to become troop choices but only if the Grand Master is your HQ.

And with absurdly expensive apothecaries, don't expect to see this around too much. And they become troops if Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is your HQ. That alone is a 275 point investment.

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

Actually, the majority of units in the entire codex have WS4. Only Paladins, Dreadknights, Assassins, 2 Henchmen upgrade characters and HQ units have anything higher.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

It's really not. If you can kill a Trygon, you should have no trouble taking out a Dreadknight.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex

Judging on your views on the matter, I doubt it.

and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

Until someone takes a mechanized list.

Vasarto wrote:

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

Um, "most"? Really?

Terminators, Purifiers, Strike Squads, Purgation Squads, Ghost Knights, Techmarines, Crusaders, Dreads, Inquisitors, are all WS4. Paladins, Dreadknights, Arco Flagellants, Venerable Dreadnoughts and the like are WS5. It's only the assassins and HQ's that are higher than WS6+, and practically everything else is WS3.

Purifiers and paladins as troop choices. Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

Purifiers are probably the only really truly broken thing remaining, however require a terrible HQ to make troops. In armies using Paladins as troops, well, they'll likely consist of 12-20 models at 2000pts, they'll get tabled by many armies in two or three turns. Basic Terminators aren't all that impressive, and have taken a *significant* nerfing from their previous incarnation, even if they are a bit cheaper they aren't as cost effective. They certainly aren't as good as TH/SS termi's.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

Yes its scary, but if you can deal with a Trygon or a Carnifex, you can deal with one of these just as easily.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

How so?

If the playtest book had remained the same, perhaps, but without S7 T7 4+invul Dreadknights, no 2+ invuls against shooting or enhanced invuls for swords outside of CC, and unlimited melta/plasmagun Henchmen, it's been toned down quite a bit. It was quite crazy before, but not anywhere near as bad.

Grey Knights are not something that its a matter of time to learn how to deal with. What I saw was the biggest OP thing I have ever seen from ANY codex thus far.
The only thing that I could possibly see being an equalizer are high initiative power weapons or someone whom spams Wolftooth necklace. If you are not doing that. Winning in CC against Grey knights will
be impossible for any current army.

If one's playing Space Wolves or Assault Marine BA's I wouldn't worry too much. Those basic PAGK's only get 1 A each, unlike the typical 3 attacks of a Grey Hunter, and cost 33% more.

Grey Hunter spam with a couple Rune Priests is going to be a nightmare matchup for Grey Knights.

So my suggestion. Use those STR10 Ap1 Large Blast templates. Spam the living crap out of Ap 2 and 1 items. Shoot the ever living crap out of them and hope that the Grey Knight player did not put a whole lot of their awesome heavy options in. Because that is the only way to beat a Grey Knight player when that codex drops.

Or just realize that most of their units are no harder to through normal shooting than normal marines, and they won't have the numbers that other marine armies have? Multilaser spam will work even better against GK's than it does against other marine armies due to their smaller numbers.

It's not like most of these units are any harder to kill than other marines. Paladins can be a *****, but any AP2 shooting is going to make them unhappy.

Pretty sure I read it as when purifiers go into combat it was they all take armor saves...Maybe I read that +4 save part wrong.

Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong. Trust me, That codex is OP'ed. Sure a lot of the models were high cost but for how powered they are I think they are just right.
I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

Also one of the psychic powers were pretty awesome too. It was...warp...something. Cant remember it exactly but it was pretty nice! Probably close to how good JOTWW is.

Vasarto wrote:Pretty sure I read it as when purifiers go into combat it was they all take armor saves...Maybe I read that +4 save part wrong.

Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong. Trust me, That codex is OP'ed. Sure a lot of the models were high cost but for how powered they are I think they are just right.
I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

Also one of the psychic powers were pretty awesome too. It was...warp...something. Cant remember it exactly but it was pretty nice! Probably close to how good JOTWW is.

That wouldn't happen to be the HQ pages you read, would it? Becasue there's a load of WS6 and BS6 there. Also, the Avatar of Khaine has WS10, must be really OP...