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Feeder_of_life wrote:Yes they are


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Short answer...

Thanks for your insight, I look forward to the book on tape version.

4 vendettas which i played against id say yes but infantry armies not so much.

its just since they have the most mech options and 5th favors mech if 6th changes that expect IG to sink down the ratings

IG is the reason I don't like going to tournaments. It always feels like an autolose with either my mech BA lists or my Hybrid Tau lists. The last tournament I went to featured a new player to game who played an internet IG list. I was basically tabled by turn 4 and I've been playing for two years. So, IMO, they are OP.

So.. you're beaten by a particular army and they're automatically overpowered? You can't think on your feet and that's GW's fault for writing "broken" rules?

I'm not saying that the defenders of mankind don't have some ridiculously strong units that are crazy cheap (vendetta... yes. 25 points more than 3 lascannon teams is a little crazy)... but crying about it isn't going to change that. Use your brain and think of a solution.

papathrax wrote:So.. you're beaten by a particular army and they're automatically overpowered? You can't think on your feet and that's GW's fault for writing "broken" rules?

I'm not saying that the defenders of mankind don't have some ridiculously strong units that are crazy cheap (vendetta... yes. 25 points more than 3 lascannon teams is a little crazy)... but crying about it isn't going to change that. Use your brain and think of a solution.

lol im not complaining it was was a fun game (i gave him a run for his money with eldar )just after the 6th game or so a with 4 vendettas with melta vets etc and WH allies at 1500 points it takes the fun out.

i would call them overpowered in certain lists but would still be happy to play them in a tournament but less so in friendly games repeatedly.

lots of cheap guns
TRUE LINE OF SIGHT
enough said

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

It's not OP, it's very strong. But almost all of the 5th ed books are strong. So far I think GW has done a reasonable job of making all the 5th ed books competative with one another. But it's already been said, Tau were built for a different time and most of what made them good no longer exists. Tau v Guard is not a good comparrison.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

It's not OP, it's very strong. But almost all of the 5th ed books are strong. So far I think GW has done a reasonable job of making all the 5th ed books competative with one another. But it's already been said, Tau were built for a different time and most of what made them good no longer exists. Tau v Guard is not a good comparrison.

i agree but i think once we hit everyone at 5th it will be generally balanced (nids lacking a little bit) then 6th will arrive and a new SM codex will shake the whole balance around again until we have to redo all the codices for balance xD

Vendetta's are a little OP. Wanna know why?

Because they absolutely rake in the dough for GW. Everyone wants one. Have you seen how much they cost?!...




Telling me the IG are invincible though just sounds a bit daft; as an IG player myself, I can assure you that they're in no way invincible. Aside from the obvious threats of outflankers, deep strikes, drop pods, etc (which can do a tremendous amount of damage to any infantry-heavy or mechanised army), the rules of 5th ed. mean that units are constantly getting the way of each other, enemies get an abundance of cover saves, and those squadrons you're complaining about do jack sh*t (the powerful ones anyway).
Guard squads may have access to plenty of special and heavy weapons, but guess what? Three plasma guns cost 5 points less than a chimera. Three LC HW Teams cost more than twice what a Chimera costs. In order to buy two LC HW Teams, you'd need to fork out 60pts more than a standard-pattern Leman Russ. Don't forget either that nearly all of the models behind these weapons are BS 3, T 3, and Ld 7.

IMHO, it's not OP, just takes careful planning but they are not invincible as the others have pointed out. For example, I have always had a hard time against drop pod armies or heavy assault armies, and soon GK is coming to give me more pain! ARghhhh

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

Actually, it's surprising what can take out a power blob. Power blobs are DEAD killy against certain things that get in close combat, but there are plenty of things that they can't handle. The reason I've been successful with power blobs isn't because individual power blobs are awesome, it's because I run 4 power blobs.

Anyways, I wouldn't say that guard are overpowered. What I WOULD say is that the guard codex is a VERY solid codex that gives players lots of tools to beat up on riffraff. An army that is high on up-front killing power, and low on durability REALLY punishes players for being indecisive or taking bloated, or inefficient units.

Guard makes it easier than many other codecies to whomp on noobs, but it doesn't make it easier to whomp on good players.

Trust me, the weaknesses in guard armies are NOT faux weaknesses. If you can't exploit them, that's not the guard player's fault.

crazyK wrote:IG is the reason I don't like going to tournaments. It always feels like an autolose with either my mech BA lists or my Hybrid Tau lists. The last tournament I went to featured a new player to game who played an internet IG list. I was basically tabled by turn 4 and I've been playing for two years. So, IMO, they are OP.

I'm sorry, but if you're playing mech BA, nobody is going to feels sorry if you feel you're auto-losing to IG. Mech BA is very strong and is one of the few armies in the game that can match IG in terms of tanks (rather ironic for a close assault army known for jump packs) and is much more mobile in general.

Tau are where IG were 4 years ago (how often did *anyone* lose to IG back then?), and have a hard time with a lot of armies, not just IG, as they were built *very* close to the 4E Skimmer, Vehicle and LoS rules, all of which underwent significant changes with 5E.

I don't have any problems with IG i think they are a great 5th edition army. I just have a little bit hard to understand... Why they get Marbo at what is it? 65pt? I mean.. That guy is Darth Vader, The Holy Emperor himself, Bruce Lee, John Rambo all rolled into one man! The rest i really don't give a damn about but that guy. He is way OP for his pt!

Meh, I stopped using Marbo because I couldnt' justify his cost. He's one of those units that looks good on paper, and is VERY good against a certain class of targets, but isn't very good against much else, and just throws a free KP at your opponents.

I think that's something that people see with guard that causes them to scream cheeze. Guard units are very cheap, and are very good at what they're good at. What people forget is that they're fragile, and they tend to be horrible against things they're not designed to destroy.

I mean, you can look at a colossus and say "you wound my devestators on 2's and ignore both armor and cover? For HOW few points? CHEEZEXORS!" The problem is that you're looking at only the absolute best case scenario of a weapon against the target it was designed to be good against.

If you only look at guard units in their best case scenarios, of course they're going to look overpowered, because the guard are best in their best cases than most other armies. What this overlooks, of course, is that they're worse in non-best-cases than other armies.

I mean, that hydra may be death incarnate against AV10 skimmers, but what happens when you don't bring any? Hydras ain't no thing against power armor, even for 75 points apiece...

I'm sorry, but if you're playing mech BA, nobody is going to feels sorry if you feel you're auto-losing to IG. Mech BA is very strong and is one of the few armies in the game that can match IG in terms of tanks (rather ironic for a close assault army known for jump packs) and is much more mobile in general.

Sorry if I came across as whining. I know IG is beatable, I read about in other people's Batreps

I was losing bad in the last tournament when Straken punched out my Furioso Dread w/ Blood Talons and it made me physically ill. I guess I provided that kid with a good tournament memory though....

Warboss ZanZag wrote:I don't have any problems with IG i think they are a great 5th edition army. I just have a little bit hard to understand... Why they get Marbo at what is it? 65pt? I mean.. That guy is Darth Vader, The Holy Emperor himself, Bruce Lee, John Rambo all rolled into one man! The rest i really don't give a damn about but that guy. He is way OP for his pt!

T3 and 2 wounds with a 5+ save would like to argue with you. I love using him, but he's very, very squishy. I think it balances his points cost.

crazyK wrote:

Sorry if I came across as whining. I know IG is beatable, I read about in other people's Batreps

I was losing bad in the last tournament when Straken punched out my Furioso Dread w/ Blood Talons and it made me physically ill. I guess I provided that kid with a good tournament memory though....

Considering the Furioso is likely to put an average of 6-7 wounds on such an IG command squad it charges, and that yes, while Straken can kill a Furioso, it'll typically happen once in every 14 rounds of close combat, wheras the Furioso will wipe straken and his squad typically in two, all it means is some good luck on the IG players part with an upgrade character that tripled the base cost of the unit. The Furioso probably cost less than that Straken command squad did.

Not something one should feel bad about really.

Seeing as Tau is my main army it is hard not to look at this from a Tau perspective. It costs upwards of around 170 points for 1 Railgun on a front armor 13 vehicle, while Vendettas are some 150 for 3 twin-linked Lascannons on front armor 12. Perhaps it is just that Tau are desperately in need of a new codex but what other army gets that much punch for that cheap. Yeah it is only BS3 but the twin-linked makes that almost entirely not an issue.

Yes Chimeras don't due much themselves, but they don't stop the people inside from firing out, have front armor 12, unlike almost any other transport in the game, while only costing 55 points. All of their vehicles are very cheap (point-wise) and vehicles, even armor 10 ones, are harder to destroy then people like to admit. Even if you can actually hit the vehicle, you have a 4 out of 6 chance of that shot still keeping everyone inside safe.

Being another Tau player, with a budding space marine army, I can say that the only part of IG that I have a problem with is Marbo. My friend's Marbo (that he always uses on me) has destroyed probably 5 times of it's worth in points on average, and even as high as 10 times it's points this one time.

He pops in and tosses a demo charge, gets 2 squads of crisis suits, a railhead, a devilfish, and most of a FW squad. Yeah, most of my 1500 point army that game. It was hairy, sweaty, Khornate donkey t3sticles. I can angry about it more, but I will stay on topic.

The fact that the Vendettas are cheap is offset by the fact that my seeker missles almost auto-destroy (markerlights FTW!) Tanks and other things I can seeker or broadside well enough don't pose much of a problem.

My problem has always been horde armies. I keep telling myself after tourneys that I will get a squad of TLF crisis suits just for those, but then I remember that it is hard to jump-shoot-jump while in CC. I just don't know. I have also had the most rotten luck using submunitions on orky boys and guardmen mobs. Sigh.....

I hope that new codex comes out soon, or 6th, or whatever. My Tau chances in this environment are pretty slim. I can only win now with good deployment and a little help from Lady Luck. If she says no, then it's a guaranteed loss.

OmegaStriker wrote:He pops in and tosses a demo charge, gets 2 squads of crisis suits, a railhead, a devilfish, and most of a FW squad. Yeah, most of my 1500 point army that game.

He got all that under a single large blast template?

Marbo's not your problem dude...

Yeah, I deployed all my valuable stuff next to each other behind my firewarriors, so six crisis suits, drones, the back of a railhead and the back of a devilfish, and the troops in the fish that died trying to get out. It sucked a Khornate donkey's you-know-what's. Needless to say, I never deploy that close together again, and I always ask to see their codex and army list, so I know what I need to avoid.

just because someone runs a powerplay list doesn't mean auto win learn some strategy please

The vehicle squadren rules do a few things well for guard.

The make them immune to the first two damage results and allow tanks to shoot through other tanks. No LOS hindrance. This means with proper placement, they are both shielding other units and keeping themselves alive.

The fact that you can destroy something with an immobilized result doesn't matter much at that point, a decent player with an obscurement save and is pointing that front armor of 14 at your guns doesn't care. At. All.

IG is just as good as any of the other 5th edition Codexes, with the exception of Tyranids, which are meh.

If you are playing any of the older armies then you should expect to have a very difficult time, since they were designed with different rules in mind, or were sometimes just badly put together books.

If the new Tau book comes out and still has as much of a hard time against IG than i think people have a right to complain, but before then, they just need to realize that the older books are not as good and learn to be ok with it.

If you want to be able to play against IG competitively, you probably need to be playing SM, SW, BA, DE or GK. Obviously the older books with the right players and the right armies can still win against IG, but i would argue that they do so on a less then level playing field.


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OmegaStriker wrote:Yeah, I deployed all my valuable stuff next to each other behind my firewarriors, so six crisis suits, drones, the back of a railhead and the back of a devilfish, and the troops in the fish that died trying to get out. It sucked a Khornate donkey's you-know-what's. Needless to say, I never deploy that close together again, and I always ask to see their codex and army list, so I know what I need to avoid.

I think you should be thanking Marbo for teaching you such a valuable lesson...you should have been doing all of those things anyway.

jcd386 wrote:
If you want to be able to play against IG competitively, you probably need to be playing SM, SW, BA, DE or GK.

That is the fundamental problem. Players shouldn't have to buy the newest army just to level the playing field, codex's should stay within a certain constraint of balance. However, GW is a business, and in order to make money they must make things for us to buy. The stronger the item, the more plausible a player will buy it. When was the last time you heard of a guard player buying tanks after all? Not like any of them have roughriders, for example.

That said, while IG are crazy good for a shooting army, the only reason I have trouble with them is when my tau are trying to get rid of a crap ton of infantry that keep going to ground in cover. Especially during an objective game. I can deal with the tanks, I can deal with the transports, the fliers and all their other stuff, but the infantry... tau just can't do much about MSU guard in MEQ cover. That's my main beef.

juraigamer wrote:The vehicle squadren rules do a few things well for guard.

The make them immune to the first two damage results and allow tanks to shoot through other tanks. No LOS hindrance. This means with proper placement, they are both shielding other units and keeping themselves alive.

You might want to go ahead and read the rules for tank squadrons again.

0% of the guard players I've ever known would choose putting two tanks into a squadron when they have the option to keep them separate.

Allow me to be the first to state when playing against a player who constantly states rules that happen to work out in his favor, re-check entire rulebook regarding his army.

I wasn't aware of that. Still the idea that a vehicle can see through another vehicle in the same squad is a bonus, but yes I see why when possible people split them up.

After sucking the last four editions they are due. But I have some IG so I am kind of biased. I remember getting my butt handed to me enough times when I played in 3rd with my IG that I really don't feel bad.

As a fair assesment they aren't OP, they are undercosted. I think there is a difference. I would say that some of the other top tier armies are a bit OP and need to be toned down, IG just need thier points upped about 15-20%.

They're undercosted mainly because they're so fragile. T3 with a 5+ armor save means anything S6 and above kills you outright, and every other races smash through their puny armor with impunity. Even the dreaded Chimera, Valkyrie and Leman Russ? Chimeras are 12/10/10....most AT weapons have no trouble with that armor. Valks are 12/12/10, so anything that can take down a Chimera can take down a Valk. Leman Russes may seem tough, but they're no harder to take down than a Land Raider at range, but much easier to kill in close combat.

Guard are easy enough to beat if you play right. Even mech vet and air cav Guard have their weaknesses. Veterans are no tougher than regular Guardsmen, but more expensive and without the benefit of numbers. You can bea Guard easily enough...you just have to fight the Guard you're facing. If you play rihgt, you can trounce Guard. Trust me, as a Guard player with a ridiculous number of losses to his name I know Guard are far from invincible.

Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.