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juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

Nothing? Not hardly. The thing is, that door swings both ways; I find the biggest problem with my Guard is that they can't kill stuff fast enough to keep from getting drawn into close combat, because of those very same cover rules. And once IG are in close combat, the fragility of the IG becomes a huge liability.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

False, it still means a lot, even with cover. Not to mention that ignores or weakens cover gets much more useful. Even with a 4+ coversave, your average Guardsman is still relatively fragile, and it is hard to gain cover with Leman Russes and Chimeras without sacrificing their ability to fire.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

What?

Firstly,

Ruckdog wrote: The thing is, that door swings both ways.

Secondly, have you never heard of a meltagun? A krak grenade? Outflanking? Deepstriking?

There are SO many ways to get in close, at which point you wreck guard vehicles dead. Guard is great if you're being foolish enough to try and dig things out of cover with static autocannons (to be fair, though, guard were ALWAYS good at long-range slug fests), but they're not so good if you actually play a 5th ed game with a 5th ed list.

good example of gaurd not being over powered, i got assulted by archion, my blob died, in a few turns, even after he lost his +2 invun save he wouldnt die agaisnt the squad, in the end it required a tank with a direct shot to kill him, this is after killing 60+ gaurd

after firing everything, 4 turns in, i managed to kill a squad of kabalites... thats all, nothing else died apart from me when it came to that squad (Even WITH orders)

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

It certainly does mean something.

Last game I played was against Sister of Battle, and between 3+/2+ sv and being able to make them invulnerable, they didn't care all that much for cover.

However, Bolter/CC wounding on 3+ made a huge impact, as in any exchange of fire or CC, he had to make so many more saves than I did.

My TFC (my list is fluffy and not very competitive) even killed a Cannoness because I forced wound on every unit in his squad (They were clumped from a destroyed Rhino) and with T3, 1 failled saved meant ID.

IG are looking at a 4+ cover save at beat, they would have even worse casualty.

T3 is a big deal. Ask the DE.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

There's this part of the game called "The assault phase" I think you need to hear about.

Tell him he needs more broad side battle suits and or Hammer heads.

Anyway, Yes, Along side of the current new marine chapters like SW,BA,GK. The I.G are pretty powerful. I only played them twice but got my ars handed to me.
Well...first time I played I did well. It was a minor loss actually and I was playing orks. It was almost a Major victory but I snuck in with Snikrot and Ghazzy and went right to his back lines. Plus I made a lot of mistakes lol.

Second time though...hoo..did not realize Leman russ had the armor it did and my plasma guns just could not get through it...even living lightning failed me to do anything against it. His valks had like three or four las cannons on them and his two troop choices easily had somewhere around like 3+ special weapons in them that I could not armor save against.

Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Personally I think that they are balanced, I have never had a horrible problem with beating them.

Overpowered is a relative term. However, they are relatively overpowered when you compare them to older armies. Tau simply aren't competitive, it is an uphill battle the majority of the time.

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

I'm pretty sure he means FoC slot. That said, IG have had that going wayyyy back to 2nd Edition.

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

Melissia wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Stop using lol as punctuation, it's really annoying. Chatspeak isn't welcome here either.

Also, what people fail to realize is that yes, that's 55 bodies on the field, but you're probably paying 300 points or more after upgrades. Putting them all in Chimeras is hilariously expensive, points and money wise, and isn't a terribly good strategy. Putting vets in a Chimera is a different story, but you can't take 50 in one FOC slot. Also, the best thing about killpoints is that it gives some deterrent to the really meched-out lists that folks run.

Vasarto wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Well only the PCS and IS can actually take Transports. SWS, HWT, and Conscripts are stuck with hoofing it for some reason, which I can kind of understand with the latter 2, but not so much the former. That said, I don't know why you would want to take 10 seperate squads with 10 separate Commissars. Usually you want to blob up and only take 1, maybe 2 commies, for the extra power weapon.

I'm not stating tanks are the problem, I'm stating as a shooting army I can't dislodge guard infantry. Tanks die like everything else.

As an assault army, guard are easy enough to deal with provided you minimize the shots you're taking.

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Indeed they can, but unless you're going for a themed mechanized infantry army, putting PIS in Chimeras is not a competitive idea. They're too expensive, and don't have enough punch to be worth their while. WHat makes mech vets so powerful is that they have 3 special weapons, and BS4, all things that regular Guardsmen lack. Regular Guardsmen are best used in large blobs to hold objectives and lay down massed heavy weapons fire, or forming powerblobs to go forward and kick face.

The ability to take tranports for your platoon INfantry is definitely not one of the IGs strongest features.

You look at a baneblade and answer that question for yourself.

A few sisters squads with meltaguns and that baneblade can go down pretty fast...

I feel that when you take the current guard dex and stake it up next to the other current 5thed books. Everyone is on the same playing field. However! When you take it and set it next to older books yes it is very OP. There really isnt alot the older books can do other then hope to get lucky.

They can adapt their tactics and builds a bit, but then again, older codices don't have as much flexibility in their lists to begin with.

Melissia wrote:Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

Sure, but the original complaint was that guard units are impossible to kill because they have squads with 100+ models in them. If you take a fully loaded platoon, you're basically shooting KP at your opponent with a fire hose without any real objective-camping staying power outside of the blob.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

Maybe not nothing but it really helps low sv armies.
It works both ways but not the same length. it definitely helps low cost high number units more.

ChrisWWII wrote:They're undercosted mainly because they're so fragile. T3 with a 5+ armor save means anything S6 and above kills you outright, and every other races smash through their puny armor with impunity. Even the dreaded Chimera, Valkyrie and Leman Russ? Chimeras are 12/10/10....most AT weapons have no trouble with that armor. Valks are 12/12/10, so anything that can take down a Chimera can take down a Valk. Leman Russes may seem tough, but they're no harder to take down than a Land Raider at range, but much easier to kill in close combat.

I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.
3 LR in a SM makes forces a whole army based on them. 3 LR in IG army is just an addition to it.

Ailaros wrote:I think that's something that people see with guard that causes them to scream cheeze. Guard units are very cheap, and are very good at what they're good at. What people forget is that they're fragile, and they tend to be horrible against things they're not designed to destroy.

I mean, you can look at a colossus and say "you wound my devestators on 2's and ignore both armor and cover? For HOW few points? CHEEZEXORS!" The problem is that you're looking at only the absolute best case scenario of a weapon against the target it was designed to be good against.

If you only look at guard units in their best case scenarios, of course they're going to look overpowered, because the guard are best in their best cases than most other armies. What this overlooks, of course, is that they're worse in non-best-cases than other armies.

I mean, that hydra may be death incarnate against AV10 skimmers, but what happens when you don't bring any? Hydras ain't no thing against power armor, even for 75 points apiece...

Hydra is also good against AV11 transporters. Bread and butter unit of all SM-like armies. How about Leman Russ. It's great against numerous thing. As is Vendetta and veteran/Chimera and pie plate of doom artillery and so on. Ordnance big blasts are awesome against vehicles AND hordes. Cheap units with BS4, meltas and ability to get 3 shots is also very versatile.
Don't try to make IG look like a fluff Eldar because it's not true. I would say versatility is one of IG strengths .


After all that, I want to say that IG (in my opinion) is not OP. But it may feel like it, or it is close. I know this may be just a feeling, but it is not taken out of thin air. Older codeci(??) are having an enormous problems with IG. You may say that it's not fair to try to compare 5 with 4 ed, but you are wrong. It's not unfair. There is simply no other way. 4ed and 5ed must be comparable because they are fighting one another. What is not fair - that one codex is powerful 90% of edition time and the other is powerful 10%.

The Leman Russ is also exponentially weaker than the Land Raider to assaults and side/rear shots, as well as not being able to transport infantry. While the Land Raider is ridiculously durable and is able to deliver a payload of infantry up to terminators.

The Land Raider has plenty of offensive capability with its twin twin-linked lascannons, or its power armor ignoring, cover save ignoring templates, and so on for its various variants.

Agreed.
I just wanted to point out that comparing LR to LR is not a good one. Land Raider is better, but it's also much pricier. Comparing Land Raider to almost any vehicle shows all the weaknesses that ChrisWWII have shown. They are not weaknesses of Leman - they are weaknesses of vehicles.
Comparing Leman Russ to most of vehicles shows that it is significantly more durable. It's not Land Raider durable but it still is....
Different Land Raider variants are better against AV or against infantry. Standard Leman Russ is more versatile and cheaper so Ailaros' point is not good.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Indeed they can, but unless you're going for a themed mechanized infantry army, putting PIS in Chimeras is not a competitive idea. They're too expensive, and don't have enough punch to be worth their while. WHat makes mech vets so powerful is that they have 3 special weapons, and BS4, all things that regular Guardsmen lack. Regular Guardsmen are best used in large blobs to hold objectives and lay down massed heavy weapons fire, or forming powerblobs to go forward and kick face.

The ability to take tranports for your platoon INfantry is definitely not one of the IGs strongest features.

Wrong...you can win with hydrid armies without taking a single veteran unit. Instead of veterans you can runner the cheaper platoon command as well as special weapon teams. While they are BS 3, they are cheaper and thus you can take more of them (1 PCS and 2 SWS per platoon) and the SWS borrow the chimeras (or ride the skimmers) from the PIS, embarking on them in turn 1. Thus you can have the PIS form the firebase together with artillery, and the PCS and SWS forming the mech component which advances and engages the enemy (similar role as mechanised vet squads).

Which is why I love hybrid armies. They give you both the flavor of a gunline, as well as having the mech component similar to mechvets..the best of both worlds, and it is a very powerful configuration...

So, like I said earlier, guard makes it easy for newer players to clear out the rifraff.

If you can't figure out how to spread your troops out, get meltaguns into range, or figure out what rear armor AV10 means, well, your problem isn't the guard codex...

freddieyu1 wrote:

Wrong...you can win with hydrid armies without taking a single veteran unit. Instead of veterans you can runner the cheaper platoon command as well as special weapon teams. While they are BS 3, they are cheaper and thus you can take more of them (1 PCS and 2 SWS per platoon) and the SWS borrow the chimeras (or ride the skimmers) from the PIS, embarking on them in turn 1. Thus you can have the PIS form the firebase together with artillery, and the PCS and SWS forming the mech component which advances and engages the enemy (similar role as mechanised vet squads).

Hence what I said. Putting the PISs in Chimeras is not a good idea. Buying them Chimeras, only for the SWSs or PCSs to steal it is a perfectly acceptable idea. The point is, the regular PISs are still being used either as powerblobs or as a firebase.

Macok wrote:
I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.

Hence why it is a vulnerability of the Leman Russ. Yess, the Leman Russ is much cheaper than a Land Raider, but as AIlaros pointed ou the Leman Russ can't deliver a unit like TH/SS terminators into close combat. If the Leman Russ gets stuck in close combat, it gets killed very easily. The side and rear armor is even more vulnerable to AT weaponry than a Land Raider. Besides, 3 Leman Russes WILL form a siginificant portion of my force..not a simple add on.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Macok wrote:
I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.

Hence why it is a vulnerability of the Leman Russ. Yess, the Leman Russ is much cheaper than a Land Raider, but as AIlaros pointed ou the Leman Russ can't deliver a unit like TH/SS terminators into close combat. If the Leman Russ gets stuck in close combat, it gets killed very easily. The side and rear armor is even more vulnerable to AT weaponry than a Land Raider. Besides, 3 Leman Russes WILL form a siginificant portion of my force..not a simple add on.

Leman Russ is a long range anti-horde and anti-vehicle gun vehicle. Not a transporter. It's role is totally different than Land Raider. So why are you still comparing LR to LR? And why are you calling something "vulnerability of the Leman Russ" if it is "vulnerability of all vehicles baring maybe two"? How many vehicles CAN deliver TH/SS termies? Is it also vulnerability of Wave Serpent and Trukk?
Because the only "weakness" you've shown is that Russ is no Raider. It's not.. And..?
Guard players are really biased in this thread..

It's weakness is precisely that it is no harder to kill than almost any other vehicle in an assault, and that the proliferation melta & lance weapons make its increased armor often largely irrelevant over most of the other IG vehicles.

It's definitely not a bad unit, and its higher armor is useful in many situations, but really it's not that much different than it was in previous editions, and certainly isn't anything even approaching overpowered.