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Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?


BA's deciding that Necrons were their brothers in arms is also fail.




Bad writing is bad.

Mr. Burning wrote:IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

For you, it failed. I think it is a perfect example of doing anything. The GK and the Inquisition are exemplars of 'The Ends justify the Means'.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?

Again, read the fluff. Everything touched by the Bloodtide is corrupted almost instantly. I'm sure the GK could have held off for a bit, but they needed some extra umph. With only hours left, they went with what they had.

Bad writing is bad.

Your opinion is your opinion. But you know what the important part of it is? It is just your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main problem with people not liking the GK fluff is that they cannot differentiate between not liking the direction that something takes and it being bad.

There is a big difference. I may not like the direction that the GK took when compared to prior works, but that does not make the writing bad.
It means... You guessed it, I didn't like the direction they took.

When it comes down to it, the game is Warhammer 40,000. It is unlikely that major moves will be made in the forward timeline. That means that additional histories will always be found and things will be changed in the continuity retroactively.

It has been like this since Rogue Trader. If you can't handle it, I suggest finding a new game, because it is not going to change.

That doesn't make it bad writing, however, it just means you don't like the fact that things are changing.

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

Sorry, I hadn't read your post above mine, I just looked at the OP and responded to that. I have read yours now.

You make a fair argument; I (with respect) still don't agree in terms of it being narratively convincing. (Yes, I have read the Codex. No, I didn't buy it as I have no plans to collect GK, so I don't have it under my hand at this moment. Thanks for providing the text for reference above.) I've had Sisters but not played them since 3rd edition so I am familiar with their background etc. This is part of what pulled me up short about this piece. (I'll come back to that later).

There is a difference between misrepresentation and satirising a piece. I thought it was clear that I was satirising; I apologise if that wasn't clear. The basic reason I don't like it, in that I don't find it narratively convincing, is still there for me. Even if we agree to proceed from your point that the blood of the Sisters itself was necessary, why did they need all of it? The piece doesn't give any internal answer as to why the GKs had to kill all the Sisters outright rather than take a certain amount of blood for ceremonial anointing purposes? Even mixed with oil, how much blood could they actually have needed? I appreciate religious observance may well be a bit different in the 41st millennium, but any time I have been anointed, I have not required pints of the stuff. The text above states the blood is a "talisman". Talismans by their nature and definition don't require to be full physical shields. You don't have to use eight pints of a talisman. A little would do! So the text requires a justification for why all the blood is needed. There isn't one, which leads me on to my next issue with this text.

The reason this piece annoys me is that we never get a clearly argued rationale for the act of killing all the Sisters. Let's use an inappropriate analogy: the story of Goldilocks. Even toddlers can grasp the rationale behind what Goldilocks does in the Three Bears' home: she's hungry so she takes food, she's tired so she sleeps in the bed. She does what's required to meet her needs. If Goldilocks also emptied Baby Bear's piggy bank, smoked all of Papa Bear's cigars and sniffed Mama Bear's underwear, even little kids would realise that her actions were not justified by any need she faced in the story. She went too far. I consider that, purely on the text given in the Codex, the GKs appear to have gone too far in slaying all the Sisters. I understand that you are saying the nature of the threat of the Bloodtide is such that it justifies any measures taken by the GKs. Even if that is so, in order to make that argument and achieve narrative justification, you are having to read outside of the text. You are having to contextualise externally. And in a self-contained fantasy setting, that's bad writing. The effect of the missing justification is actually made worse in this piece by the choice of forces. The Sisters are an Imperial force; a very loyal one, and by admission in the text of this piece, hard to corrupt. The whole point of this piece is that some of them remained uncorrupted - why use the blood otherwise?

So this is the scenario we're left with: loyal Imperial forces have proven (by remaining uncorrupted) their devotion, faith, purity. Their Imperial allies who are supposed to be the very embodiment of these virtues, turn up and... kill them all. That's not a standard narrative development in the 40K background. It represents such a departure from the standard - and from what we have been led to expect from the existing background - that if anything, it requires a stronger, clearer reason given in the text for that particular course of action. And this reason is what's entirely missing. Why kill them? Why not leave them alive, even if they "need" to be bled? This is my problem: that issue is never answered in the text. That's what makes it bad writing. It leaves the reader trying to make up their own justification for the action; and that speculation can take some, er, unpopular forms. (See the vigorous discussion re GKs and Khorne.)

Anyway, your good post deserved a rather better thought-out explanation of my thinking from me, so there it is. My original post wasn't directed at yours, so apologies if it came off that way. No confrontation intended. (Mat Ward - bringing people all over the world together )

pretre wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

For you, it failed. I think it is a perfect example of doing anything. The GK and the Inquisition are exemplars of 'The Ends justify the Means'.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?

Again, read the fluff. Everything touched by the Bloodtide is corrupted almost instantly. I'm sure the GK could have held off for a bit, but they needed some extra umph. With only hours left, they went with what they had.

Bad writing is bad.

Your opinion is your opinion. But you know what the important part of it is? It is just your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main problem with people not liking the GK fluff is that they cannot differentiate between not liking the direction that something takes and it being bad.

There is a big difference. I may not like the direction that the GK took when compared to prior works, but that does not make the writing bad.
It means... You guessed it, I didn't like the direction they took.

When it comes down to it, the game is Warhammer 40,000. It is unlikely that major moves will be made in the forward timeline. That means that additional histories will always be found and things will be changed in the continuity retroactively.

It has been like this since Rogue Trader. If you can't handle it, I suggest finding a new game, because it is not going to change.

That doesn't make it bad writing, however, it just means you don't like the fact that things are changing.

Calm down sonny jim,

I believe I am free to express my opinion, as are you.

I can appreciate the game without having to like poor storytelling.

Lara says it more eloquently than I could,

Lara wrote:So this is the scenario we're left with: loyal Imperial forces have proven (by remaining uncorrupted) their devotion, faith, purity. Their Imperial allies who are supposed to be the very embodiment of these virtues, turn up and... kill them all. That's not a standard narrative development in the 40K background. It represents such a departure from the standard - and from what we have been led to expect from the existing background - that if anything, it requires a stronger, clearer reason given in the text for that particular course of action. And this reason is what's entirely missing. Why kill them? Why not leave them alive, even if they "need" to be bled? This is my problem: that issue is never answered in the text. That's what makes it bad writing. It leaves the reader trying to make up their own justification for the action; and that speculation can take some, er, unpopular forms. (See the vigorous discussion re GKs and Khorne.)

Thank you for actually thinking about things and responding intelligently. I find the Ward-derp frustrating.

So I don't mean to ignore most of your post, but I think this paragraph is the essence of the issue. You find the GK's actions jarring and out of context for the universe; I contend that these are very much part of the universe.

I would actually argue that sacrificing the loyal and innocent is one of the central story themes in a lot of the continuity and tenets of the Imperium.

- The Astronomican: Loyal psykers are fed by the thousands to 'feed the Astronomican' what is done with them is rather unclear. Who decides why?

- Sisters of Battle: The sisters have rules surrounding sacrifice and Martyrdom for exactly this reason.

- Space Marine recruiting: How many recruits to make one marine? Why can't they find a better way? Is this the best way to recruit? No, but it is what needs to be done to get things done.

- Imperial Guard: How many bodies into the meat grinder? How many fronts involve loyal commanders sacrificing millions of guardsmen to drown the enemy in their blood? Read Gaunt's Ghosts or any of the guard novels. They are full of disdain for high command and the way they run battles. Is it the best way? No, but it is what needs to be done to get things done.

- Inquisitor Karamazov: Codex - Witchhunters.
'His deeds were replete with the rigid application of the Imperial Creed and though some within the Inquisition criticized his inflexibility and claimed that he had sent thousands of innocents to their deaths, Karamazov would reply with Judge Traggat's famous maxim that claims of innocence meant nothing; serving only to prove a foolish lack of caution.'
'There is no such thing as a please of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."
Heck, Karamazov's whole schtick is that it is okay to sacrifice any number of innocents for the greater good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Burning wrote:
Calm down sonny jim,

I believe I am free to express my opinion, as are you.

I can appreciate the game without having to like poor storytelling.

Lara says it more eloquently than I could,

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

Re: the Bloodtide.

I think we all know what really happened.

"The Bloodtide approached. We had no choice but to create talismans from the blood of the Sisters of Battle to defend ourselves!"

"Where did you get the blood?"

"Ummmm. . . we uhhhhh. . . We killed the Sisters of Battle! Yeah, that's it!"

"Because, Brother Spessmarinus, if I recall correctly, the Ritual of Warding specifies that moon-blood should be used, as it is blood of life, and not blood of death. I'm not certain, but does that not imply. . ."

"WE. KILLED. THE. SISTERS. AND. USED. THAT. BLOOD. That is the official story, and we will stick to it."

". . ."

themocaw wrote:"WE. KILLED. THE. SISTERS. AND. USED. THAT. BLOOD. That is the official story, and we will stick to it."

And because no discussion of Sisters can be had without going there...

/facepalm

pretre wrote:So I don't mean to ignore most of your post, but I think this paragraph is the essence of the issue. You find the GK's actions jarring and out of context for the universe; I contend that these are very much part of the universe.

I would actually argue that sacrificing the loyal and innocent is one of the central story themes in a lot of the continuity and tenets of the Imperium.

I snipped the quote here because I agree with your point here re sacrifice of innocents in full. I am not, nor would I, take issue with this. Your example of the Astronomican is the first one that sprung to my mind, too.

My issue with how this piece is written isn't the content of the piece in terms of the story it tells. I know that's the problem a lot of people have with it - the "OMG THE GREY NITEZ WUD NEVAR KILL THE SISTERZ" - I don't have that problem. I don't have that emotional or intellectual investment in the 40K universe. To a certain extent, I don't really care what Ward writes (on a tangent, I agree with you: if GW won't move the storyline on, the writers are going to have to get more creative in the "present day" setting), as long as he writes it in such a fashion that he gives a good reason for why his characters do what they do. That's a basic enough element of storytelling that I teach it to kids under 12 in creative writing. You've got to have a reason. Even if Ward gave a reason which (in my, or anyone else's opinion!) was rubbish, it would still be a reason. My problem with this is he isn't answering a very basic question: why are character group A doing action X to character group B.

This piece doesn't, in my honest opinion, explain action X. It doesn't say why the Sisters had to die. If he'd even written "because they needed all the blood they could get", or "they did it for the lolz", or "they looked at our shiny armour funny", it would be a reason. Maybe not a great one (that's a matter of personal taste), but my major objection to this piece would be addressed. It is a technical objection. It's just such a glaring technical fault to me that I can't get past it.

I fully understand (and welcome!) writers in the 40K universe doing something a little different. Doing something a little unexpected. But good work requires good justification for your characters to act the way they do. Anything can be assimilated into the context of the 40K universe, if the writer gives good, narratively compelling reasons for it to happen. This - to me - hasn't happened here. And I think (just floating an opinion here) that this might be why so many people who've read this piece are willing to reject it as a part of the metanarrative out of hand.

(This conversation is becoming quite civil. We are still talking about Ward, yeah? )

Lara wrote:This piece doesn't, in my honest opinion, explain action X. It doesn't say why the Sisters had to die. If he'd even written "because they needed all the blood they could get", or "they did it for the lolz", or "they looked at our shiny armour funny", it would be a reason. Maybe not a great one (that's a matter of personal taste), but my major objection to this piece would be addressed. It is a technical objection. It's just such a glaring technical fault to me that I can't get past it.

Fair enough.

I think one of the issues is that people expect more from the little 'Date - Name of Incident' blurbs. They are supposed to be just that, blurbs and you have to fill in a little.

They are like when other RPGs would give you 'adventure seeds'. They would provide you with the start or middle or part of a story and it is up to you to explore the rest.

I don't know if it is that I don't expect the blurbs in these sections to be whole stories and maybe that is the difference. My mind automatically fills in the rest based on my own assumptions of the material.

- The GK did what they did because they had to.
- Tycho did what he did because he is weary and longs for death.
- Wazdakka did what he did because he is crazy and that allows him to ignore all laws of reality.


That being said, for the Bloodtide blurb, I kind of just assumed that there wasn't time and it went something like this:

"Brother Captain, we have about 119 minutes before the Bloodtide ritual is complete. I estimate it will take us 30 minutes to prepare the necessary ritual components to anoint ourselves and prepare the wards that will stave off the corruption."
"Thank you, Brother Librarian. The time it would take to explain to the sisters is too precious. Do what needs to be done."

"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

pretre wrote:I think one of the issues is that people expect more from the little 'Date - Name of Incident' blurbs. They are supposed to be just that, blurbs and you have to fill in a little.

They are like when other RPGs would give you 'adventure seeds'. They would provide you with the start or middle or part of a story and it is up to you to explore the rest.

I don't know that I expect the blurbs in these sections to be whole stories and maybe that is the difference. My mind automatically fills in the rest based on my own assumptions of the material.

Fair point, well made. Perhaps I/others expect too much.

kirsanth wrote:"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

Ahem.

GK Codex wrote:The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lara wrote:Fair point, well made. Perhaps I/others expect too much.

I think that GW is stuck between a rock and a hard place in a lot of respects and nothing they ever do will be good enough.
- They have a wildly successful universe, with fans that are utterly devoted to the material and many of which who know it inside and out.
- They have 20-30 years of material from numerous sources and mediums that covers thousands upon thousands of pages.
- They are a publicly traded, for-profit business that must balance nerdery and the bottom line, including increasing stock-holder profit.
- They have a lot of employees who geniunely love the universe, the game and the models, but sometimes have to do things to keep themselves in food and clothing.

I'm not saying they don't f'up now and again, but everytime they so much as sneeze everyone reads the worst into it and then talks about how that sneeze is the worst thing since the last major natural disaster. Be realistic, not everything is a catastrophe and GW isn't constantly trying to poo on your parade.

pretre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:"Just daub some of the blood of the innocent ones on your face"

"This does not wode well. . ."

"Then cover your armor too!"

Ahem.

GK Codex wrote:The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons.

Err. . . "Then cover your armor and weapons instead!" ?

heh

...Did they actually write that in the GK codex!? I thought that was the Skulltakers (The CSM chapter not the Daemon Character) schtick!

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:...Did they actually write that in the GK codex!? I thought that was the Skulltakers (The CSM chapter not the Daemon Character) schtick!

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

That sorta makes more sense in context, but still whacked out for GKs.

The BA and Cron alliance is hardly worth the amount of hate it gets. It's barely a paragraph, and its so vague. It doesn't say explicitly that they fought side by side, only that they stopped killing each other. Quit exaggerating guys.

"The idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside a distasteful one" is just as worthy of mockery as "The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons"--even with cotext.


ymmv

Alongside and side by side are different, haha.

Anyway, I dont think it was meant to be interpreted that way. I think it was more of a ceasefire. A poor choice of words on the authors part.

Oh, agreed. But then, we do like a wee moan to blow off steam, most of us, and our toy soldiers are a fairly harmless thing to moan about. Maybe that's just me. I am the casualest of the casual gamers.

I don't (couldn't ever; I suck) play competitively, so changes to the top-tier metagame don't affect me; therefore I probably pay less attention to rules controversies than I should. I like cool models and good writing. Especially good writing. Other people look for different things from the hobby. And no, GW do not have the resources, staff, time or corporate priorities to keep everyone happy. So they have to skimp on a few things here and there. Currently the in-game (in terms of Codex stuff) fluff material seems to be getting... a little economized on in terms of time/effort. This makes me sad. It also makes me sad that there is no Tervigon model, because I want one, and I don't like how the Chapterhouse conversion kit looks.

But, as you rightly point out, I have to, and have, got over it. At the end of the day, if it made me miffed off enough, I'd quit the hobby. If their corporate strategy miffed off enough people, they'd go out of business. Profits are up: looks like most of us have got over it. They will do things we don't like. (Cruddace nerfed my Carnifexes I got over it and bought two more)

I do understand the nerdrage you're referring to in terms of background though. Since childhood, I held a near-religious reverence for Tolkien's works. And then Peter Jackson... I left the cinema in tears an hour into Fellowship of the Ring. It took me five years and numerous attempts to watch all three of those films all the way through. I will never do that again. /understatement. So I do understand why people get upset over 40K narrative changes. I know it really matters to a lot of people. If you're a company dealing in any sort of narrative "thing" that people are really into, you're going to get blowback when you do something they don't like. I guess GW are old and ugly enough to take it on the chin by now.

Except context is everything, because the Gehenna Campaign is led by Dante, the oldest living marine, who it is said:
"And yet for all his success, or perhaps because of it, Dante has grown weary of his burdens. He has lived far longer than he should, and the burden of centuries grows ever weightier. Only one thing prevents Dante succumbing to ennui..."

If any BA would be likely to walk away in an instance like that, it would be Dante.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't plausible or good writing. It just means you don't like it.

Potato_God wrote:Somehow, In my heart, I hoped something non-ward related would come up. I am a fool.

do you guys remember the worst non-ward related fluff ever?

Squat + Inquisitor + mutant assassin + singing navigator = WHAT!?!?!?!!?

@Lara: I can't believe you didn't like the LotR movies. Our civilised conversation is over.

Mr. Burning wrote:

pretre wrote:

Lara wrote:"Let's murder some space nuns and defile their corpses and take a bath in their entrails! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Whoops, sorry, FOR THE EMPEROR!!"

There is no reason for this. None. The argument about "needing the blood for the Bloodtide" doesn't hold water. Why do they need to kill the Sisters? Don't relatively minor (and treatable) wounds also bleed?

So, did you actually read the codex?

GK Codex P15 wrote:...At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the neraby streets seizing hapless citizens ... Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the EC assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls...

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armor and weapons. So shielded, the GK are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption...

So again. Try to read the fluff in question before misrepresenting it. They needed a talisman to protect them from the corrupting influence of the bloodtide, which had so far corrupted everything it touched. The only imperial force to even get close to the Basilica (and were unable to enter and stop the ritual) were the SOB. To actually enter it and get to the ritual, they would have to slog through the actual corruption, which would have turned even the GK (Keep in mind that sisters are very hard to corrupt and some of them were corrupted almost instantly and they didn't even get in the basilica.) So they did what they had to do.

That is, afterall, what we ask them to do. Do whatever is necessary to protect entire worlds from daemonic infestation. Which, again if you read the passage, they only had hours to forestall.

IF the intent was to show that the GK will stop at nothing to achieve their ends then it has failed. If the intent was to show the similarities between heretical rites and allowable practice by the imperium, then, it also failed.

GKs need a talisman of purity? isn't aegis armour, decoration and fetishes, and undaunted faith in the BIg E enough?


BA's deciding that Necrons were their brothers in arms is also fail.




Bad writing is bad.

Agreed. GK have always been the "purest of the pure" the whole blood of nuns with guns thing is:
1) they are purer than the SOB's so it wouldn't work and might weaken them in this regards actually;
2) its kind of a weird reference shtick. Blood of nuns is weird and disconcertig on its face and also has weird vibes on the women blood thing...

But after having read it as way more annoyed by the GK's just going through major named demons without much a sweat. It feels like bad fanfiction.

Potato_God wrote:I've seen alot of Matt Ward hate (deservedly so), and it got me thinking. What do you think was the darkest moment in 40k fluff? Black Library stuff counts as well.

The day it was all written

Agreed, but also true is this:

pretre wrote:Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is plausible or good writing. It just means you like it.

I think both are ridiculous and worthy of mockery. Like the purer than the guy that is purer than the guys that are absolutely pure.

Others disagree, which is what makes forums fun for discussion.

kirsanth wrote:Agreed, but also true is this:

pretre wrote:Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is plausible or good writing. It just means you like it.

I think both are ridiculous and worthy of mockery. Like the purer than the guy that is purer than the guys that are absolutely pure.

Others disagree, which is what makes forums fun for discussion.

I never said it was good writing. I just think that the constant 'OMG WARD IS THE DEVILS' derp is ridiculous. It's a freakin' codex, it isn't going to be War and Peace.

Goddard wrote:A poor choice of words on the authors part.

Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

Lara wrote:
Without sparking confrontation, is there general agreement that if Ward did a little more proofreading, or whoever edits him took a much harder editorial line (and I do mean in terms of technical stuff, like "Use moar fancier wordz"), people might soil on his work a little less?

I too have written things that were unclear, open to misinterpretation or outright dumb when I read over them again. I think more reading-over by his GW fluffmasters would do no harm. Quality control of the product applies to more than just miniatures, eh?

I can agree, but that is just because this kind of thing rarely suffers from too little editing.

That being said, we could have god's own editor look over every inch of the book and make changes and, for the same reasons I listed before, I guarantee that people would take exception with it and call it the worst thing since the invention of pain.

I'm tempted to go back into the newgroup search and look for flamewars started over the 2nd edition Sisters of Battle codex and how bad it was or the 3rd edition space marine codex and how it destroyed the fluff. I bet they are there.